Maybe we deserve what we get

[Perd Hapley]

Riley, if you want to make the case against the war in Iraq, you could have just done so.  Plenty of people around here would agree with you.  But when you make the case that these soldiers deserved to be kidnapped by saw-happy terrorists, because some other soldiers raped somebody, you just make your side look stupid. 

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, that much is clear now and has been for some time. 

   And the guys who were abducted had nothing to do with the rape.   

[The Rabbi]

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, that much is clear now and has been for some time. 

   And the guys who were abducted had nothing to do with the rape.   

And no one has ever made the argument that Iraq was responsible for 9/11 except the Left Wing, which uses it as a strawman.

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, Rabbi, that too.  But since he won't listen anyway...

[doczinn]

We punished the OFFENDERS. They punish the innocent in revenge.

And THAT's the real difference.

[The Rabbi]

We punished the OFFENDERS. They punish the innocent in revenge.

And THAT's the real difference.

Quoted for truth.

[Antibubba]

The Bush administration has completely bungled/mismanaged this 'war'.  Iraq is no closer to 'democratization' (that is the latest excuse, isn't it?) now than it was a year or two or three ago. Bush's Rodney King (can't we all just get along) attitude toward Iraq is, and will continue to be, a complete and utter failure.  I, for one, do not want to see us continue to squander American lives and untold billions $$ on what will eventually be another Vietnam.
 

I agree completely.  But sadly, even though it will cost many more lives, we can't just declare victory and go home, like we did in that other war.  Because the slaughter that will result will make the current damages look like a kids game.  We either need to stabilize Baghdad (which is 90% of the problem) to where the Iraqis can manage to hold it together, or until the Iraqis themselves, as a government, ask us to leave.

I do hope there is a day of reckoning for George & Co.

[K Frame]

So, tell me, Reily, what are YOU going to do, personally, to atone for your part of this "collective guilt" you have going?

Are you going to give yourself up to Al Queda?

Hang yourself with a note pinned to your shirt saying that you can't live with the shame any longer?

If we're all guilty, as you're claiming, then you should be man enough to atone for it, right?


I think this is a good time to issue a pro forma warning against personal attacks, no matter which side of this issue you happen to be on.

[Paddy]

Mike, I am not of the opinion that we are somehow 'guilty' of this crime.  And I sure as hell did not mean that the 3 missing (captured) soldiers deserve to die.  They are just as much victims, IMO, as the girl and her family. The five American soldiers who did the crime have been apprehended and pled guilty.  Criminal case closed.  Now let us (hypothetically) say that a civil action follows. The United States government is directly responsible for placing those soldiers there in thre first place.  The United States government provided those soldiers with the weapons (probably) used in the crime.  The United States government trained them and is responsible for their actions.  Just like if you got drunk on company time while driving the company car, and ran over a crosswalk full of children, your company would be liable.

Now, to assert that Al queda does worse things, or that we are the 'good guys' or it's ok for us to occupy Iraq because it's in our national security interest or whatever does not get us off the hook.  There remains an element of culpability on the part of the U.S. government (and thus on us, since we're supposed to be a representative republic).

We are most assuredly an occupying force from the point of view of the locals, be they peace loving civilians or bloodthirsty terrorists.  They look at our soldiers as single oppressive force, not as individual people.  Kind of the same way that some of us condemn any and all Muslims-nevermind that there are-what?- 1 billion of them in the world and only a fractional percentage are involved in anti western terrorism. 

[Perd Hapley]

The United States government is directly responsible for placing those soldiers there in thre first place.  The United States government provided those soldiers with the weapons (probably) used in the crime.  The United States government trained them and is responsible for their actions.

Yes, that's true.  The .gov is responsible, and the American people are responsible for what it's govt. does.  The govt. is responsible to clean up the mess that its soldiers made of this girl and, as you stated, it did so, as far as a rape can be cleaned up (of course it really cannot.)  But the govt. and the people are only indirectly responsible for the rape that occurred in contravention of its laws and against its will. 

So what's your point?  Yes, we are an occupying force.  That is not a bad thing.  Yes, this girl was raped by our soldiers.  A few people got the Abu Grahib treatment.  Even more of our own soldiers have been killed or wounded.  These things happen in wars, whether just or not.  These things happen in the U.S. and will happen in any country you can find.  In fact, they seem to have happened quite a bit in Saddam's Iraq, except that the rapes were carried out by the govt.  And the tortures were very real and very painful, disfiguring and sometimes lethal.

Wait, what was your point again? 

[K Frame]

"Mike, I am not of the opinion that we are somehow 'guilty' of this crime."

Oh? Really?

Wow! I didn't realize that this was backward upsidedown double reverse hyperspeak Thursday!

So obviously I misinterpreted the very first line of your very first post...

"We go to their country, rape and kill a 14 year old girl and her family..."

I think you were very, very clear in your intention.

[The Rabbi]

The argument now is that the .gov is responsible under laws of agency.  Not sure on that one.

[Paddy]

Ok, Mike, if you want to parse words how about "we sent soldiers to her country who raped and murdered her and her family."  Got a problem with that statement, factually?

And no, Rabbi, I don't think it would fly in a civil court.  You have to get advance permission from government just to sue government in the first place.

[The Rabbi]

Ok, Mike, if you want to parse words how about "we sent soldiers to her country who raped and murdered her and her family."  Got a problem with that statement, factually?

And no, Rabbi, I don't think it would fly in a civil court.  You have to get advance permission from government just to sue government in the first place.

OK.  So there was no legal liability although you made the case using the legal concept of agency.  But we see agency doesn't apply here.  So you admit the gov't is not liable on legal grounds.
So on what grounds is the gov't liable?

[Eleven Mike]

I, for one, am very disappointed that we have sent our soldiers to rape girls in Iraq, instead of what they should be doing, which is raping girls on the Afghan/Pakistani border (the probable location of OBL), or in Saudi Arabia, which as everyone knows is where most of the 19 hijackers came from, or in Israel, which is the real cause of unrest in the Middle East. 

[The Rabbi]

I, for one, am very disappointed that we have sent our soldiers to rape girls in Iraq, instead of what they should be doing, which is raping girls on the Afghan/Pakistani border, or in Saudi Arabia, which as everyone knows is where most of the 19 hijackers came from, or in Israel, which is the real cause of unrest in the Middle East. 

Yeah, get rid of the Joos and everything will be peaceful again.

[Eleven Mike]

Man, if you couldn't tell that I was joking....

 

[K Frame]

Ok, Mike, if you want to parse words how about "we sent soldiers to her country who raped and murdered her and her family."  Got a problem with that statement, factually?

And no, Rabbi, I don't think it would fly in a civil court.  You have to get advance permission from government just to sue government in the first place.

Parse words? You're the one who's trying to claim that you didn't say what you very plainly said -- that every man, woman, and child in the United States is personally responsible for the rape and murder of a 14-year-old girl.

So, I repeat my earlier question.

What are YOU, personally, going to do to atone for it?

Would you like someone here to volunteer to decapitate you while someone else here films it so we can send it to Al Jazeera TV in hopes that it might placate Al Queda?

[Paddy]

What are YOU, personally, going to do to atone for it?

OK, Mike.  Here's my offer.

1) I will continue to protest this illegal and immoral occupation of a sovereign nation.
2) I will call for those responsible to be held accountable. Specifically, GWB and those who enabled him should be arrested and sent to the Hague for trial by an international court.
3) I will call for reparations to those injured/damaged by this outrageous action.  Those reparations will come in the form of American dollars extracted from the American people in the form of taxes.
4) I will call for Congressional action to ensure this never happens again.  Specifically, a bill passed by both houses of Congress prohibiting the POTUS from deploying forces anywhere in the world without an Act of War declared by the Congress (the way the FF intended).
5)I will continue to meet your absurdity with more absurdity of my own. 

[Paddy]

heh. It's already nearly 10 pm in Penn or wherever Mike is.  He's probably gone to bed. The sun is still shining here.  The West Coast rocks, bigtime. 

[Antibubba]

That's not rocking.  That's a tremor. 

[K Frame]

OOOOOOOOOOOooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

You'll protest.

In other words, you'll do absolutely nothing of any substance at all.

So very, very typical.

Personally I'm going to go celebrate my share of the guilt by having a ham and egg omelet for breakfast.

Why?

Because I don't feel guilty in the least.

Oh, and bedtime comes promptly at 2 a.m.

[.Cheese.]

oye..... no we don't deserve "what we get".  We took out a tyrannical ruler who had no internal qualms with killing his citizens.  The fact that it turns out that there aren't any WMD's that we can find IMO is meaningless.  It's not like the guy has a history of being peaceful.  He bluffed.... A LOT!  If I keep telling the cops, "I have a gun.  Yep.... a gun.  I'm going to shoot you too." eventually, gun or not, the police are going to do what they're trained to do.  That's what happened here too.  It turns out this time, there was no gun.... or if there was, he got rid of it all before we could get to it.  Remember, there is sand in all directions.... who knows what's buried!

Ultimately, what we are doing is good for the people of Iraq.  Right now, it's messed up, I'll admit that.  However, we can't pull out or else they'll say, "You came and messed up our country and then you just left?!"

And more than anything, if you don't like what's going on, do something about it.  Feel free to write your legislators.  Create a website... I don't know.... but just bashing our troops, president, etc. online doesn't do anything except piss people off.

[Paddy]

So, Economist, what's all that crap have to do with U.S. national security? Nothing, nada, zip, zilch.  There are plenty of tyrants all over the world, always have been.  How come we aren't taking them out for the same reasons you cited?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

they also serve who "call for things"  from camp living room, or mom basement  or where ever

[Thor]

I have to ask, if "we" are not wanted in Iraq, then WHY does the Iraqi government NOT want us to leave?? The ones that don't want us in Iraq are the Iranians and the Syrians who are sending folks over to create the civil war that is looming.