Author Topic: More Global Warming Skeptics  (Read 80547 times)

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #200 on: June 13, 2007, 02:33:34 PM »
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Huh? burning oil = CO2.  Maybe that has something to do with why the've spent tens of millions lobbying against AGW.
Considering some of the crackpot schemes that have been proposed, If I were Exxon, I would be doing some heavy lobbying as well.  I wouldn't care about research itself, just the potential for stupid laws. 

This is a reasonable argument supporting think tanks for big corporations.  Too bad the tactics followed by Exxon seem to center around discrediting the best and the brightest minds on the planet, ignoring the truth, and far less about attacking crackpot schemes like Kyoto.

Just look at the history of big tobacco.

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #201 on: June 13, 2007, 03:02:48 PM »
Come wacki, you expect me to remember a post made 2 weeks ago?  Cheesy

Fair enough.  Sorry for jumping on you.  These threads tend to bring out some real retards and I apologize if I lost my patience with you.

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In my defense, the "solution" was do nothing now and continue with research and development.  Not really a solution regardless of my own word choice.

There is no instant fix.  You could give up your car and turn off the lights and we would still have a CO2 problem.

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I still don't have an issue with doing that.

Awesome.  Glad to see some willingness to take some basic precautions.

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I looked at the posts you mentioned.  Alternative energy research is the only solution I saw that you mentioned.  That stuff is already on going.

No it's not.

"We are not starting to address climate change with the technology we have in hand, and we are not accelerating our investment in energy technology research and development,"
-Professor Holdren, Harvard Professor, President of AAAS, director of WHRC


I could write pages about how the energy industry is being neglected.  Most of the energy R&D going on right now (like corn ethanol) is a joke and is more about stalling real technology and political pork than solving problems.  Energy is the largest industry on the planet yet they spend the least % wise on R&D of all the major industries.  To give you an idea a 5 cent gas tax would be enough to start up another Apollo program.  We sure as hell aren't seeing an Apollo energy program right now.  The US used to be the leader of the world in physics and engineering.  Walk into a major University's physics classroom now and you will see mostly Chinese students that barely speak English.  The current state of science in America is a joke and we are losing our Ph.D's with a quickness.

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Anything else?

This could be a long post.  If I was president the first thing I'd do is tell Europe to shove Kyoto up their arse.  Then I'd cut subsidies for the trucking Industry and invest in light and heavy rail.  For every dollar I spend on the highway I'd spend at least the same amount on public transport and rail which is far more efficient.  That will wean us off of oil and make us far more resistant to threats from Iran.  Public transport used to be very popular in the US (in several major cities at least) until Standard oil, Firestone, etc engaged in the great streetcar scandal and killed off a popular transportation system.  Cheap rail was replaced with expensive buses.  The solar industry is very profitable but it's in gridlock for complicated business reasons.  I'd spend federal money to build a massive polysilicon plant and break that gridlock and annihilate the silicon shortage.  Then I'd let the solar industry take it's due course.  Call it "jump starting capitalism" with a sacrificial lamb of one factory.  It would be a one time deal.  I'd cut the multi billion dollar corn ethanol subsidies.  I'd start a military style physics and engineering program.  Basically "we pay for your college but you give us 4 years of your life" just like the army does.  Slap a 5 cent gas tax on gasoline which would pay for an Apollo style program to develop alternative energy so we can fight global warming and tell the middle east to "go screw yourself".  I'd slap a small tax on every electrical device that doesn't have a vampire slayer.  Neat little factoid:  Your cellphone charger uses 24x more energy just sitting there then when it is actually charging your phone.  It's cheaper for companies to make you burn electricity then to add a 5 cent switch that actually turns off the device.  Vampire slayers could save the US billions per year and who knows how much CO2.

I'd create a panel of top scientists to allocate federal research funds and energy subsidies (which would be used sparingly).  Once appointed they are there for life just like the supreme court.  One requirement would be to force them to make their financial records open to the public.  Not only will their tax records be made public but they would be barred from participating in certain kinds of financial activities.  This would make them extremely resistant to bribery and political influences which would include members of Congress.

I'd create a series of X-prizes which would encourage private enterprise to compete with the federal labs in creating new technology for alternative energy.

Cafe standards worked very well in the past and they could easily be increased without putting too much strain on the auto industry.  That would be some easy low hanging fruit as well.

I'd make heavily polluting companies clean up their own mess instead of using federal money to do it for them.  There was a study once that added the costs of peace keeping in oil rich nations to each gallon of gasoline.  The price of gas went up to $5 a gallon or something similar.  There are a lot of hidden costs in dirty fuels that people don't know about.

That would be a start.  In summary I'd concentrate on creating options for people and avoid the compulsive banning mentality of kommifornia.

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #202 on: June 13, 2007, 03:27:22 PM »
Oh, yes, lets do talk about the IPCC, shall we?  From Frederick Seitz, president emeritus of Rockefeller University and chairman of the George C. Marshall Institute (Washington). In his letter to the Wall Street Journal, on June 12, 1996, he wrote:

lol  I wrote 4 posts talking about how Frederick Seitz is batcrap insane.  You replied to one of my posts:

"I'm not quoting Seitz.  Relevance to thsi discussion?"
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg116130#msg116130

Now you source him?

The Nobel Laureate (more like Nobel thief) Kary Mullis thinks O.J. Simpson is innocent, HIV doesn't cause AIDS, practices telepathy, claims to have visited the astral plane... to give his girlfriend nitrous mouth to mouth, had sex with aliens and claims to have talked to glowing raccoons.  Now that I've mentioned this crackpot would you like to quote him as an authority as well?
http://www.logicalscience.com/skeptics/kary-mullis.html

please just stop posting.  You aren't adding anything of value.

Ron

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #203 on: June 13, 2007, 03:50:13 PM »
Just checking in and saying hi guys.

I kind of felt obligated, I started the whole thing and then haven't posted since.

You guys have done a great job without me! I don't think I could have added anything to the discussion that was worthwhile, lol.

Anywho continue on, didn't mean to interrupt, many of us are reading and learning. You guys have been pretty good about keeping it civil so it hasn't been painful to read as it has meandered around.

 police < climate change police with a temporary badge from El T>

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #204 on: June 13, 2007, 05:44:46 PM »
Oh, yes, lets do talk about the IPCC, shall we?  From Frederick Seitz, president emeritus of Rockefeller University and chairman of the George C. Marshall Institute (Washington). In his letter to the Wall Street Journal, on June 12, 1996, he wrote:

lol  I wrote 4 posts talking about how Frederick Seitz is batcrap insane.  You replied to one of my posts:

"I'm not quoting Seitz.  Relevance to thsi discussion?"
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=7127.msg116130#msg116130

Now you source him?

The relevant point, is this "batcrap insane" scientist was PART of the IPCC and he says the report was CHANGED>  Was it or wasn't it?  BTW, he is not the ONLY one claiming the report was altered.

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please just stop posting.  You aren't adding anything of value.


...and still no answer as to why the other planets are heating up too, or the black body temp of Earth, or where the Midieval Warm period is on Mann's hockey stick, or why holocene climate optimum was 4 degrees warmer than now, or....
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wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #205 on: June 13, 2007, 06:10:17 PM »
The relevant point, is this "batcrap insane" scientist was PART of the IPCC

Anyone is allowed to be part of the IPCC review process.

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and he says the report was CHANGED>  Was it or wasn't it?  BTW, he is not the ONLY one claiming the report was altered.

Fred Singer and Seitz both claim tobacco doesn't cause cancer. 
"Dr. Seitz is quite elderly and not sufficiently rational to offer advice." -CEO of R.J. Reynolds

That was twenty years ago.

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...and still no answer as to why the other planets are heating up too, or the black body temp of Earth, or where the Midieval Warm period is on Mann's hockey stick, or why holocene climate optimum was 4 degrees warmer than now, or....

Well for one thing I'm *mostly* ignoring you.  One of the reasons why I'm ignoring you is because you've brought up the other planets argument multiple times in multiple threads and it's been answered multiple times in multiple threads by multiple people.

both  badastronomy and realclimate have good writeups on this and links to both of those articles have been posted in this forum.

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #206 on: June 14, 2007, 04:57:11 AM »
The relevant point, is this "batcrap insane" scientist was PART of the IPCC

Anyone is allowed to be part of the IPCC review process.

THAT alone should be a warning sign to you - yet you keep citing it...

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and he says the report was CHANGED>  Was it or wasn't it?  BTW, he is not the ONLY one claiming the report was altered.

Fred Singer and Seitz both claim tobacco doesn't cause cancer. 
"Dr. Seitz is quite elderly and not sufficiently rational to offer advice." -CEO of R.J. Reynolds

That was twenty years ago.


WAS THE REPORT CHANGED?  Its a simple question - why no answer?  Lets us see what OTHERS have to say on the subject, BESIDES ol' "batcrap insane" Seitz...

"THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
July 11, 1996


...It is good therefore to have on hand an editorial from the international science journal Nature (June 13). Even though the writer openly takes the side of the IPCC in this controversy, impugning the motives of the industry group that first uncovered the alterations in the text, the editorial confirms that:


A crucial chapter of the IPCC's report was altered between the time of its formal acceptance and its printing.


Whether in accord with IPCC rules or notstill a hotly debated matter"there is some evidence that the revision process did result in a subtle shift . . . that . . . tended to favour arguments that aligned with the report's broad conclusions." (Critics of the IPCC would have used much stronger words.) The editorial further admits that "phrases that might have been (mis)interpreted as undermining these conclusions have disappeared."


"IPCC officials," quoted (but not named) by Nature, claim that the reason for the revisions to the chapter was "to ensure that it conformed to a 'policymakers' summary' of the full report...." Their claim begs the obvious question: Should not a summary conform to the underlying scientific report rather than vice versa?

The IPCC summary itself, a political document, is economical with the truth: It has problems with selective presentation of facts, not the least of which is that it totally ignores global temperature data gathered by weather satellites, which contradict the results of models used to predict a substantial future warming. It seems to me that IPCC officials, having failed to validate the current climate models, are now desperately grasping at straws to buttress their (rather feeble) conclusion that "the balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on climate." In this crusade to provide a scientific cover for political action, they are misusing the work of respected scientists who never made extravagant claims about future warming."

So the Wall Street Journal and Nature, as well as Ol' "Batcrap", assert the REPORT WAS ALTERED!  In fact, in Science magazine, 21 June, 1996, Dr. Benjamin Santer, convening lead author of Chapter 8, admits to making the actual changes between the final approval of the report in Madrid (in November 1995} and its printing (in May 1996), because "reviewers requested them".  (Huh?)

So, are all THESE people "batcrap insane" too, or are you gonna deal with the fact that the report was altered?


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...and still no answer as to why the other planets are heating up too, or the black body temp of Earth, or where the Midieval Warm period is on Mann's hockey stick, or why holocene climate optimum was 4 degrees warmer than now, or....

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Well for one thing I'm *mostly* ignoring you.


Yep.  Thats a lot easier than answering...

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One of the reasons why I'm ignoring you is because you've brought up the other planets argument multiple times in multiple threads and it's been answered multiple times in multiple threads by multiple people.

No it hasn't.  A spurious claim that "dust storms" (ignoring what is CAUSING the dust storms) are causing the heating on Mars, (ignoring the fact that increasing particulate content leads to COOLING every where else...) was made.  NOTHING has been said about Jupiter, Pluto, or any of the OTHER bodies that are ALSO heating up, nor have you explained how greenhouse gases are going to cause Earth to EXCEED its theoretical maximum black-body absorption - which is an IMPOSSIBILITY....

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Iain

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #207 on: June 14, 2007, 05:10:35 AM »
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But science offers only one window on human experience. While upholding the honor of their profession, scientists must seek to avoid putting scientific knowledge on a pedestal above knowledge obtained through other means

This is the very definition of scientism. Scientism denies the possibility of human knowledge being obtained through anything other than the sciences, it proclaims the primacy of science over other fields. Usually though it means truths about life, thus those accused of scientism would be accused of denying the possibility of learning anything about life through religion or spirituality etc. I'm not sure how much religion or the humanities can tell us about global warming considering it is a scientific area of inquiry.

Saying that armchair experts should seek to establish credentials before outright dismissal of practicing experts is not scientism. To say so is to equate the validity of my views on relativity to Einstein's.

Informed public debate about science is one thing, a group of people on a forum parroting their favourite sceptic and dismissing all other possibilities because 'it's about power and control' or 'the science is wrong' is not informed debate - and for each of the 'global warming is happening on Mars' comments we have a person who is not paying attention to the full spectrum of the scientific debate.

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People have very rigid opinions about subjects about which they cannot actually contribute to discussion except to mock
This is not an elitist opinion, if a poster repeated interjected mocking comments about the potential presidency of Ron Paul and yet could not cite more than a handful of Paul's political positions their contribution should be, and would be, disregarded. Mocking comments about perceived 'chicken littleism' or 'junk science' when no qualifying statement is forthcoming should also be disregarded as the noise of children.

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Some of the people that are cited here have a certain authority and that is not to be taken lightly. But to continue to insist that they are the only valid sources and to ignore and dismiss all others when you yourself have no expertise with which to judge the validity of what they are saying is to risk being a crank.
Not a controversial statement if we were talking about relativity. There are those who do not accept it at all; for a non-physicist to listen to only those opinions and to cite them chapter and verse as the only valid opinion, would be an unsustainable position.

We know full well that only certain opinions are being heard at all and are being repeated as the absolute final truth. This is why Singer, Lindzen, Ball and others are repeatedly cited, and their opponents are ignored. These are the 'spurious appeals' to academic authority, spurious because they are so highly selective of their authorities and yet unable to state why these authorities are the only valid authorities.
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richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #208 on: June 14, 2007, 05:56:21 AM »
Who is claiming conspiracy wacki?  Examples have been posted in the last 8 pages.  Bureaucrats always act for self preservation first.  No conspiracy is required.  You keep making really long posts without saying a great deal, twisting arguments to suit your partial responses. 


..you left out ad hominem attacks on any scientist that doesn't toe the party line....
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richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #209 on: June 14, 2007, 06:03:54 AM »
We know full well that only certain opinions are being heard at all and are being repeated as the absolute final truth. This is why Singer, Lindzen, Ball and others are repeatedly cited, and their opponents are ignored.

I've cited many others, from many different countries - notably France and Russia.

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These are the 'spurious appeals' to academic authority, spurious because they are so highly selective of their authorities and yet unable to state why these authorities are the only valid authorities.

When it comes to taking the "temperature" of the Earth, only satellite IR measurements have a chance of approximating the answer.  Lindzen is the preeminent authority on such measurements.  His word should carry great weight, as he designed the equipment in the first place.
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MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #210 on: June 14, 2007, 10:34:05 AM »
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People have very rigid opinions about subjects about which they cannot actually contribute to discussion except to mock
This is not an elitist opinion, if a poster repeated interjected mocking comments about the potential presidency of Ron Paul and yet could not cite more than a handful of Paul's political positions their contribution should be, and would be, disregarded. Mocking comments about perceived 'chicken littleism' or 'junk science' when no qualifying statement is forthcoming should also be disregarded as the noise of children.
Actually, it is elitism.  Your opinion of said poster is extremely judgmental and is more likely to reflect your arrogance on the subject and not the poster's lack of knowledge.  There are not nearly as many of the posters you refer to than some people like to think. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Iain

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #211 on: June 14, 2007, 01:05:46 PM »
In its original context that comment was aimed at a developing peanut gallery that was not contributing except to snipe and me too.
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wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #212 on: June 14, 2007, 06:53:45 PM »
The relevant point, is this "batcrap insane" scientist was PART of the IPCC

Anyone is allowed to be part of the IPCC review process.

THAT alone should be a warning sign to you - yet you keep citing it...


Well, that is an intelligent statement.   undecided rolleyes

There is a movement among peer review journals to open the books and allow anyone, be it layman or expert, to comment on a paper before it's published.  Currently papers are sent to a handful of experts which read and then give feedback on/approve the paper.  Just because someone comments on the paper doesn't mean the comments will be included in the paper. 

The fact that you think public review somehow discredits a report shows how little you know about how the scientific world operates.  The only disadvantage public review has over peer review is that public review requires the authors to read a heck of a lot more comments before publishing a final draft.

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #213 on: June 14, 2007, 07:00:08 PM »
When it comes to taking the "temperature" of the Earth, only satellite IR measurements have a chance of approximating the answer.  Lindzen is the preeminent authority on such measurements.  His word should carry great weight, as he designed the equipment in the first place.

If you have proof that Lindzen disagrees with the IPCC's, NASA's, and the MetOffice's temperature readings I'd LOVE to see it.

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #214 on: June 18, 2007, 05:08:41 AM »
When it comes to taking the "temperature" of the Earth, only satellite IR measurements have a chance of approximating the answer.  Lindzen is the preeminent authority on such measurements.  His word should carry great weight, as he designed the equipment in the first place.

If you have proof that Lindzen disagrees with the IPCC's, NASA's, and the MetOffice's temperature readings I'd LOVE to see it.

Here's what the MAN HISSEF said to the Congress in 2001:

"...that CO2 levels have increased from about 280ppm to 360ppm over the past century, and, that combined with increases in other greenhouse gases, this brings us about half way to the radiative forcing associated with a doubling of CO2 without any evidence of enhanced human misery.

 that the increase in global mean temperature over the past century is about 1°F which is smaller than the normal interannual variability for smaller regions like North America and Europe, and comparable to the interannual variability for the globe. Which is to say that temperature is always changing, which is why it has proven so difficult to demonstrate human agency.

 that doubling CO2 alone will only lead to about a 2°F increase in global mean temperature.
Predictions of greater warming due to doubling CO2 are based on positive feedbacks from poorly handled water vapor and clouds (the atmospheres main greenhouse substances) in current computer models. Such positive feedbacks have neither empirical nor theoretical foundations. Their existence, however, suggests a poorly designed earth which responds to perturbations by making things worse.

that warming is likely to be concentrated in winters and at night. This is an empirical result based on data from the past century. It represents what is on the whole a beneficial pattern.

 that temperature increases observed thus far are less than what models have suggested should have occurred even if they were totally due to increasing greenhouse emissions. The invocation of very uncertain (and unmeasured) aerosol effects is frequently used to disguise this. Such an invocation makes it impossible to check models. Rather, one is reduced to the claim that it is possible that models are correct.

 that claims that man has contributed any of the observed warming (ie attribution) are based on the assumption that models correctly predict natural variability. Such claims, therefore, do not constitute independent verifications of models.  Note that natural variability does not require any external forcing  natural or anthropogenic.

 that large computer climate models are unable to even simulate major features of past climate such as the 100 thousand year cycles of ice ages that have dominated climate for the past 700 thousand years, and the very warm climates of the Miocene, Eocene, and Cretaceous. Neither do they do well at accounting for shorter period and less dramatic phenomena like El Niños, quasi-biennial oscillations, or intraseasonal oscillations  all of which are well documented in the data, and important contributors to natural variability.

 that major past climate changes were either uncorrelated with changes in CO2 or were
characterized by temperature changes which preceded changes in CO2 by 100's to thousands of years.

 that increases in temperature on the order of 1°F are not catastrophic and may be beneficial."

..about agreeing with the IPCC, same source:

"...The draft of the Policymakers Summary was significantly modified at Shanghai. The IPCC, in response to the fact that the Policymakers Summary was not prepared by participating scientists, claimed that the draft of the Summary was prepared by a (selected) subset of the 14 coordinating lead authors. However, the final version of the summary differed significantly from the draft. For example the draft concluded the following concerning attribution: 

"From the body of evidence since IPCC (1996), we conclude that there has been a discernible human influence on global climate. Studies are beginning to separate the contributions to observed climate change attributable to individual external influences, both anthropogenic and natural. This work suggests that anthropogenic greenhouse gases are a substantial contributor to the observed warming, especially over the past 30 years. However, the accuracy of these estimates continues to be limited by uncertainties in estimates of internal variability, natural and anthropogenic forcing, and the climate response to external forcing."

The version that emerged from Shanghai concludes instead:

"In the light of new evidence and taking into account the remaining uncertainties, most of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations."

In point of fact, there may not have been any significant warming in the last 60 years. Moreover, such warming as may have occurred was associated with jumps that are inconsistent with
greenhouse warming."


There ya go.




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richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #215 on: June 18, 2007, 05:28:07 AM »
More from the good Doc Lindzen:

"Last fall, a panel of scientists convened by the United Nations to advise the world's governments concluded for the first time that greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide are probably responsible, at least in part, for a changing global climate. The panel also predicted that if emissions of the gases are not reduced, the average global temperature will increase by 1.8 degrees to 6.3 degrees Fahrenheit -- with a best estimate of 3.6 degrees -- by the year 2100. The predicted warming, according to the United Nations panel, would be accompanied by widespread climatic disruption.

Bunk, says Dr. Lindzen. He says the conclusions are based on computerized models of the climate system so flawed as to be meaningless. Everyone recognizes that the models are imperfect, but Dr. Lindzen goes much farther. "I do not accept the model results as evidence," he says, because trusting them "is like trusting a ouija board." Furthermore, he argues, the physics of the atmosphere permit only a minor and untroubling warming despite the buildup of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. "

New York Times
Monday, June 18, 2007

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mountainclmbr

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #216 on: June 18, 2007, 08:40:31 AM »


http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/topstories/197613

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Reid Bryson, known as the father of scientific climatology, considers global warming a bunch of hooey.

The UW-Madison professor emeritus, who stands against the scientific consensus on this issue, is referred to as a global warming skeptic. But he is not skeptical that global warming exists, he is just doubtful that humans are the cause of it.

There is no question the earth has been warming. It is coming out of the "Little Ice Age," he said in an interview this week.

"However, there is no credible evidence that it is due to mankind and carbon dioxide. We've been coming out of a Little Ice Age for 300 years. We have not been making very much carbon dioxide for 300 years. It's been warming up for a long time," Bryson said.

The Little Ice Age was driven by volcanic activity. That settled down so it is getting warmer, he said.

Humans are polluting the air and adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, but the effect is tiny, Bryson said.

"It's like there is an elephant charging in and you worry about the fact that there is a fly sitting on its head. It's just a total misplacement of emphasis," he said. "It really isn't science because there's no really good scientific evidence."

Just because almost all of the scientific community believes in man-made global warming proves absolutely nothing, Bryson said. "Consensus doesn't prove anything, in science or anywhere else, except in democracy, maybe."

Bryson, 87, was the founding chairman of the department of meteorology at UW-Madison and of the Institute for Environmental Studies, now known as the Gaylord Nelson Institute for Environmental Studies. He retired in 1985, but has gone into the office almost every day since. He does it without pay.

"I have now worked for zero dollars since I retired, long enough that I have paid back the people of Wisconsin every cent they paid me to give me a wonderful, wonderful career. So we are even now. And I feel good about that," said Bryson.

So, if global warming isn't such a burning issue, why are thousands of scientists so concerned about it?

"Why are so many thousands not concerned about it?" Bryson shot back.

"There is a lot of money to be made in this," he added. "If you want to be an eminent scientist you have to have a lot of grad students and a lot of grants. You can't get grants unless you say, 'Oh global warming, yes, yes, carbon dioxide.'"

Speaking out against global warming is like being a heretic, Bryson noted.

And it's not something that he does regularly.

"I can't waste my time on that, I have too many other things to do," he said.

But if somebody asks him for his opinion on global warming, he'll give it. "And I think I know about as much about it as anybody does."

Just say no to Obama, Osama and Chelsea's mama.

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #217 on: June 18, 2007, 04:22:40 PM »
Reid Bryson's theory is based off of the claim that we are coming out of the ice age.  Well we are currently warming 10x faster than anytime in the past million years.  So the rate of change doesn't line up.  If you look at the ice cores you can literally see with the naked eye the ice get clearer the year after we passed the clean air act.  If his hypothesis is true then the ice cores should be dirtier during the ice age then they were during the industrial revolution.  There are other factors of course.  But something tells me that the ice cores aren't going to confirm his theory.

It would be nice if he supplied a quantitative analysis of his theory.  I doubt we will see a full writeup from him.  And until he supports his hypothesis with testable evidence then he is merely spouting an opinion and not practicing science.  This argument has been made before by the usual suspects in the skeptic world and nobody has come forth with any supporting evidence.

I will say I haven't seen a proper retort of this.  I've heard people I know and trust claim it's nonsense but I haven't seen the actual data conflicting Bryson's hypothesis.  Now that someone with a shred of actual credibility is making this argument I'm sure that will change shortly.

Given that he's 87 years old this reminds me of a couple of quotes:

"old ideas die with old professors"- Planck (i think)

We will see if this quote applies to this situation as well.

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #218 on: June 19, 2007, 01:37:48 AM »

Here's what the MAN HISSEF said to the Congress in 2001:

.....

 that temperature increases observed thus far are less than what models have suggested should have occurred even if they were totally due to increasing greenhouse emissions.

This is not true.  The models are dead on accurate and the only reason why he could get away with this back then is that there were problems with the satellites.  The problems have been fixed and the satellites now match the land and sea records as well as the models.  I highly doubt he still holds this position.


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that large computer climate models are unable to even simulate major features of past climate such as the 100 thousand year cycles of ice ages that have dominated climate for the past 700 thousand years, and the very warm climates of the Miocene, Eocene, and Cretaceous.

This is also no longer the case.  Once DO events were discovered the models worked fine for paleoclimate as well.

Quote

In point of fact, there may not have been any significant warming in the last 60 years. Moreover, such warming as may have occurred was associated with jumps that are inconsistent with
greenhouse warming."


There ya go.

Again the only reason why he could say this is because the satellites were having problem and showing odd readings.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=170
Those problems have been fixed.

The real question is whether or not he still repeats any of these arguments.  I highly doubt he does.

This article is 6 years old and just about everything he's said here he's changed his mind on due to overwhelming evidence showing that he's wrong.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #219 on: June 19, 2007, 03:44:56 AM »
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21920043-27197,00.html

The salient facts are these. First, the accepted global average temperature statistics used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change show that no ground-based warming has occurred since 1998. Oddly, this eight-year-long temperature stasis has occurred despite an increase over the same period of 15 parts per million (or 4 per cent) in atmospheric CO2.

Second, lower atmosphere satellite-based temperature measurements, if corrected for non-greenhouse influences such as El Nino events and large volcanic eruptions, show little if any global warming since 1979, a period over which atmospheric CO2 has increased by 55 ppm (17 per cent).

Third, there are strong indications from solar studies that Earth's current temperature stasis will be followed by climatic cooling over the next few decades.

How then is it possible for Griffin to assert so boldly that human-caused global warming is happening?

Well, he is in good company for similar statements have been made recently by several Western heads of state at the G8 summit meeting. For instance, German Chancellor Angela Merkel asserts climate change (i.e. global warming) "is also essentially caused by humankind".

In fact, there is every doubt whether any global warming at all is occurring at the moment, let alone human-caused warming.

For leading politicians to be asserting to the contrary indicates something is very wrong with their chain of scientific advice, for they are clearly being deceived. That this should be the case is an international political scandal of high order which, in turn, raises the question of where their advice is coming from.

In Australia, the advice trail leads from government agencies such as the CSIRO and the Australian Greenhouse Office through to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change of the United Nations.

As leading economist David Henderson has pointed out, it is extremely dangerous for an unelected and unaccountable body like the IPCC to have a monopoly on climate policy advice to governments. And even more so because, at heart, the IPCC is a political and not a scientific agency.

Australia does not ask the World Bank to set its annual budget and neither should it allow the notoriously alarmist IPCC to set its climate policy.

It is past time for those who have deceived governments and misled the public regarding dangerous human-caused global warming to be called to account. Aided by hysterical posturing by green NGOs, their actions have led to the cornering of government on the issue and the likely implementation of futile emission policies that will impose direct extra costs on every household and enterprise in Australia to no identifiable benefit.

Not only do humans not dominate Earth's current temperature trend but the likelihood is that further large sums of public money are shortly going to be committed to, theoretically, combat warming when cooling is the more likely short-term climatic eventuality.

In one of the more expensive ironies of history, the expenditure of more than $US50 billion ($60 billion) on research into global warming since 1990 has failed to demonstrate any human-caused climate trend, let alone a dangerous one.

Yet that expenditure will pale into insignificance compared with the squandering of money that is going to accompany the introduction of a carbon trading or taxation system.

The costs of thus expiating comfortable middle class angst are, of course, going to be imposed preferentially upon the poor and underprivileged.

Professor Bob Carter is an environmental scientist at James Cook University who studies ancient climate change
 



hmmm  more consensus



wacki  "the models are dead on accurate"
really?!  what makes you imagine  that?  and i use imagine with cause

come on down to dc  meet some folks who worked on and developed those models for 30 plus years   they are less sure of your "dead on" dream.  but hey  what do they know.

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #220 on: June 19, 2007, 05:12:46 AM »
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21920043-27197,00.html

The salient facts are these. First, the accepted global average temperature statistics used by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change show that no ground-based warming has occurred since 1998. Oddly, this eight-year-long temperature stasis has occurred despite an increase over the same period of 15 parts per million (or 4 per cent) in atmospheric CO2.

This is so easily debunked all you need to do is look at a graph:



Quote
wacki  "the models are dead on accurate"
really?!  what makes you imagine  that?  and i use imagine with cause

come on down to dc  meet some folks who worked on and developed those models for 30 plus years   they are less sure of your "dead on" dream.  but hey  what do they know.

DC? Hansen is in NY.  You don't have to take my word on the models accuracy check the facts yourself:

http://www.logicalscience.com/skeptic_arguments/models-dont-work.html

These predictions were made in 1988




richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #221 on: June 19, 2007, 05:24:49 AM »

Here's what the MAN HISSEF said to the Congress in 2001:

.....

 that temperature increases observed thus far are less than what models have suggested should have occurred even if they were totally due to increasing greenhouse emissions.

This is not true.  The models are dead on accurate and the only reason why he could get away with this back then is that there were problems with the satellites.  The problems have been fixed and the satellites now match the land and sea records as well as the models.  I highly doubt he still holds this position.

A lot of the "land records" were taken from worn-out, uncalibrated automated stations.  As for the problems being "fixed", what you mean is, they were "corrected" to match the climate models - a degree of "correction both Spencer and Lindzen assert is way to high.  You left that out...and, BTW, as you are so fond of saying, "source, please?"


Quote
Quote
that large computer climate models are unable to even simulate major features of past climate such as the 100 thousand year cycles of ice ages that have dominated climate for the past 700 thousand years, and the very warm climates of the Miocene, Eocene, and Cretaceous.

This is also no longer the case.  Once DO events were discovered the models worked fine for paleoclimate as well.

Puh-leaze.  They don;t even correctly handle the Holocene Climate Optimum, the Midieval warm perios, or the Little Ice Age,  - they don;t even handle El nino and La nina years right.
Quote

Quote
In point of fact, there may not have been any significant warming in the last 60 years. Moreover, such warming as may have occurred was associated with jumps that are inconsistent with
greenhouse warming."


There ya go.

Again the only reason why he could say this is because the satellites were having problem and showing odd readings.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=170
Those problems have been fixed.

You asked for proof he disagreed.  BTW here's Christy and Spencer's response to the "fix":

A very useful overview of the research of Dr. John Christy and Dr. Roy Spencer of the University of Alabama at Huntsville entitled  Satellite Temperature Data was prepared for the Washington Roundtable On Science and Public Policy on April 17, 2006 .

Regardless of your perspective on the climate change issue, it provides an insight and informative summary of their research conclusions. Their talk stated

Today we are going to show you some of the latest research that has just been published, some that will be published soon and some that hasnt been published yet, but which gives you an idea where this information is going.

Among their conclusions are:

Surface warming has been observed in many regions of the world (not all) in the past century In some of these locations, the warming is more consistent with land-use change, rather than our understanding of greenhouse gas forcing

Upper air warming has likely been modest, especially in the tropics Current UAH versions of the data are consistent with balloon-station data while other versions of the satellite data are not.


Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #222 on: June 19, 2007, 05:33:33 AM »

These predictions were made in 1988





Those "predictions" don;t look so good for years 1973 - 1979, 1989, 1991 - 1994, and 1998.  Thats 12 years off.  Since the graph was made in 1988, thats 6 years that the so-called "model" not only got thte temp wrong, it got the * TREND * wrong - out of 18.  Thats a one-third total failure rate - is this the "accurate" model you speak of? - if so, I hate to see what you call an inaccurate one....
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richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #223 on: June 19, 2007, 05:39:11 AM »
Quote
by Dr. John R. Christy and Roy Spencer
April 17, 2006

In 1989, Dr. Roy Spencer and Dr. John Christy developed a global temperature data set from satellite microwave data beginning in 1979, which showed little or no warming above the surface. In August 2005, three papers appeared in Science to challenge their findings. Mears & Wentzs paper in particular addressed what they considered a large source of uncertainty in Christy and Spencers satellite estimate for global lower tropospheric temperature trends. Spencer and Christy have implemented new corrections to their method; as a result their temperature trends have risen slightly from +.09 to +.12 deg. C/Decade  still below the RSS estimate of +.19 deg. C/Decade as of mid-2005.



Wow.  A WHOLE three hundreths of s degree correction.  Not exactly the harbinger of doom, eh Wacki?
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Paddy

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #224 on: June 19, 2007, 11:08:46 AM »
feh. The notion that humans are responsible for 'global warming' is just the newest cult religion and its adherents are fanatic, crusading zealots.  "Believe or die, infidel".  rolleyes  How the hell do these people think the great ice ages of the past ended?  Duh. Must have been 'global warming', long before humans had even invented so much as a spear, let alone a highly industrialized 'greenhouse gas' emitting civilization.   It is self centered arrogance to the max to think that we can create, or stop, 'global warming'.