Author Topic: More Global Warming Skeptics  (Read 80512 times)

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #225 on: June 19, 2007, 04:04:53 PM »

These predictions were made in 1988





Those "predictions" don;t look so good for years 1973 - 1979, 1989, 1991 - 1994, and 1998.  Thats 12 years off.  Since the graph was made in 1988, thats 6 years that the so-called "model" not only got thte temp wrong, it got the * TREND * wrong - out of 18.  Thats a one-third total failure rate - is this the "accurate" model you speak of? - if so, I hate to see what you call an inaccurate one....

The 1991-94 cooling was caused by mount pinatubo.



1998 was El Nino and 1989 is dead on accurate so I assume you made a typo.

What you are talking about is weather or short term conditions.  Climate models are about long term trends and multi-year averages.  This is the basic definition of climate and weather.  The slope of the temperature trend in the model is almost exactly what it is in real life.  Both temperature trends are going up and both are increasing at the same rate.  You can cherry pick any year you want but that fact will remain the same. 

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #226 on: June 20, 2007, 04:00:40 AM »

These predictions were made in 1988





Those "predictions" don;t look so good for years 1973 - 1979, 1989, 1991 - 1994, and 1998.  Thats 12 years off.  Since the graph was made in 1988, thats 6 years that the so-called "model" not only got thte temp wrong, it got the * TREND * wrong - out of 18.  Thats a one-third total failure rate - is this the "accurate" model you speak of? - if so, I hate to see what you call an inaccurate one....

The 1991-94 cooling was caused by mount pinatubo.

Further proof the so-called "models' - aren't.



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1998 was El Nino...

So...your models can model climate hundreds of years in the future - but can't handle an El Nino?


Quote
and 1989 is dead on accurate so I assume you made a typo.

You have a funny definition of "dead accurate" - all three "scenarios" show RISING temperatures when temps actually FELL - and 2 out of the 3 are off by 0.2 degrees.  All three got the TREND wrong, and 2 out of 3 got the temp wrong.  If that meats YOUR definition of "dead accurate", I can see why YOU are impressed - the rest of us?  Not so much...

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What you are talking about is weather or short term conditions.  Climate models are about long term trends and multi-year averages.


Unless there is vulcanism.  Or El Nino.  Or sunspots.  Or.....

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This is the basic definition of climate and weather.  The slope of the temperature trend in the model is almost exactly what it is in real life.

No - its not.  In many years, the trend is even in the wrong direction.

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  Both temperature trends are going up and both are increasing at the same rate.
 

Yeah.  That tends to happen when recovering from something like the Little Ice Age...

 
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MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #227 on: June 20, 2007, 04:20:51 AM »
Let's see what that trend looks like when put in terms of % change of Absolute temperature instead of delta T.  Smiley
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #228 on: June 20, 2007, 04:53:46 AM »
Let's see what that trend looks like when put in terms of % change of Absolute temperature instead of delta T.  Smiley

I hope you realize that a 5 degree cooling means an ice age.  A 5 degree warming means florida and several countries get swallowed by the sea.   % change of Kelvin isn't going to be very meaningful to the average person when the bottom half of the fraction is > 300.

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #229 on: June 20, 2007, 05:00:12 AM »
Rich,

First you claimed 1800's technology being better than post 1956 technology in directly measuring CO2 levels.  Now you fail to understand the difference between short term noise and long term trends.  I have a really difficult time believing any person that is able to figure out how to type on a keyboard is unable to understand these basic concepts.  If you truly are having difficulty understanding these two basic concepts then I feel very sorry for you but as I said before I doubt that is the case.  Goodbye troll.

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #230 on: June 20, 2007, 07:13:50 AM »
For someone with the screen name of "wacki", you take things way too seriously.   laugh
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #231 on: June 20, 2007, 07:31:06 AM »
Rich,

First you claimed 1800's technology being better than post 1956 technology in directly measuring CO2 levels.

No - I did not.

 
Quote
Now you fail to understand the difference between short term noise and long term trends.  I have a really difficult time believing any person that is able to figure out how to type on a keyboard is unable to understand these basic concepts.  If you truly are having difficulty understanding these two basic concepts then I feel very sorry for you but as I said before I doubt that is the case. 
Goodbye troll.
The Troll

...fixed it for you....
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richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #232 on: June 20, 2007, 07:34:59 AM »
Let's see what that trend looks like when put in terms of % change of Absolute temperature instead of delta T.  Smiley

I hope you realize that a 5 degree cooling means an ice age. 

I hope you realize we've had ice ages before - and they ENDED - all WITHOUT evil Man burining fossil fuels...

Quote
A 5 degree warming means florida and several countries get swallowed by the sea.

It would also mean the entire subdiscipline of thermodynamics involved with "black body" radiation would also suddenly have been proven invalid, but I notice you keep ducking THAT "Inconvenient Truth"...

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #233 on: June 20, 2007, 02:57:54 PM »
For someone with the screen name of "wacki", you take things way too seriously.   laugh

Heh, well this has been a long and tiring thread.  And when somebody claims that readings taken with this device which dates back to at least 1811 and probably into the 1700's:



is more accurate than readings from this device (ULTRAMAT):



I start to really wonder about what their intentions are.

Then I show him this graph:



The black dots are from a device that dates back to at least 1801.  The green is the ice cores and the red line is the state of the art ULTRAMAT.  It doesn't take a whole lot of brain power to figure which one of those three measuring devices is inconsistent with the other two when it comes to year to year variance.  I mean two of those devices change by about 1 part per million and the other device has swings that are 200x larger.  It could not be more obvious.  And this is even more the case when measurements taken with the ULTRAMAT is extremely consistent even when 8 different stations are compared:



They are extremely consistent.  Measurements with the 1800's device/techniques couldn't even do that on the same day from the exact same location.  I mean not even the people back then trusted the device.  For a variety of technical reasons they literally threw out the exact same measurements that Jaworowski cites.  That is why they circled some of the black dots because that was their best guess.  Those circles happen to line up with the ice core readings.  This was at a time when nobody cared about global warming so politics was definitely not a factor.

This is pretty basic stuff and if Rich can't admit Jaworowski is full of crap then there really isn't a point in me talking to him anymore.  There is either a serious honesty or a serious brainpower problem going on here.  And now he's arguing that there's no such thing as short term noise in a long term trend.  I'm not upset.  It's just lunacy and I'm wasting my time talking to him.  I'm happy to teach but I might as well be debating 2+2 = 4.  I have better things to do with my time.

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #234 on: June 20, 2007, 04:27:59 PM »
wacki, we use ultramats at work in some applications.  They have the potential to be really accurate.  However, they really are only as accurate as the technicians maintaining them and gases used to calibrate them.  Lots of different factors can throw them off such as ambient temperature and such.  Errors of 5% to 15% are allowable depending on the application.  It's another one of those conditions that you have to assume to be true and make sure results are reproducible. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #235 on: June 20, 2007, 04:28:59 PM »
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4&p=4
This was interesting reading. 

Read the sunspots
The mud at the bottom of B.C. fjords reveals that solar output drives climate change - and that we should prepare now for dangerous global cooling
R. TIMOTHY PATTERSON, Financial Post
Published: Wednesday, June 20, 2007

Politicians and environmentalists these days convey the impression that climate-change research is an exceptionally dull field with little left to discover. We are assured by everyone from David Suzuki to Al Gore to Prime Minister Stephen Harper that "the science is settled." At the recent G8 summit, German Chancellor Angela Merkel even attempted to convince world leaders to play God by restricting carbon-dioxide emissions to a level that would magically limit the rise in world temperatures to 2C.

They call this a consensus?

Dire forecasts aren't new

The fact that science is many years away from properly understanding global climate doesn't seem to bother our leaders at all. Inviting testimony only from those who don't question political orthodoxy on the issue, parliamentarians are charging ahead with the impossible and expensive goal of "stopping global climate change." Liberal MP Ralph Goodale's June 11 House of Commons assertion that Parliament should have "a real good discussion about the potential for carbon capture and sequestration in dealing with carbon dioxide, which has tremendous potential for improving the climate, not only here in Canada but around the world," would be humorous were he, and even the current government, not deadly serious about devoting vast resources to this hopeless crusade.

Climate stability has never been a feature of planet Earth. The only constant about climate is change; it changes continually and, at times, quite rapidly. Many times in the past, temperatures were far higher than today, and occasionally, temperatures were colder. As recently as 6,000 years ago, it was about 3C warmer than now. Ten thousand years ago, while the world was coming out of the thou-sand-year-long "Younger Dryas" cold episode, temperatures rose as much as 6C in a decade -- 100 times faster than the past century's 0.6C warming that has so upset environmentalists.

Climate-change research is now literally exploding with new findings. Since the 1997 Kyoto Protocol, the field has had more research than in all previous years combined and the discoveries are completely shattering the myths. For example, I and the first-class scientists I work with are consistently finding excellent correlations between the regular fluctuations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate. This is not surprising. The sun and the stars are the ultimate source of all energy on the planet.

My interest in the current climate-change debate was triggered in 1998, when I was funded by a Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council strategic project grant to determine if there were regular cycles in West Coast fish productivity. As a result of wide swings in the populations of anchovies, herring and other commercially important West Coast fish stock, fisheries managers were having a very difficult time establishing appropriate fishing quotas. One season there would be abundant stock and broad harvesting would be acceptable; the very next year the fisheries would collapse. No one really knew why or how to predict the future health of this crucially important resource.

Although climate was suspected to play a significant role in marine productivity, only since the beginning of the 20th century have accurate fishing and temperature records been kept in this region of the northeast Pacific. We needed indicators of fish productivity over thousands of years to see whether there were recurring cycles in populations and what phenomena may be driving the changes.

My research team began to collect and analyze core samples from the bottom of deep Western Canadian fjords. The regions in which we chose to conduct our research, Effingham Inlet on the West Coast of Vancouver Island, and in 2001, sounds in the Belize-Seymour Inlet complex on the mainland coast of British Columbia, were perfect for this sort of work. The topography of these fjords is such that they contain deep basins that are subject to little water transfer from the open ocean and so water near the bottom is relatively stagnant and very low in oxygen content. As a consequence, the floors of these basins are mostly lifeless and sediment layers build up year after year, undisturbed over millennia.

Using various coring technologies, we have been able to collect more than 5,000 years' worth of mud in these basins, with the oldest layers coming from a depth of about 11 metres below the fjord floor. Clearly visible in our mud cores are annual changes that record the different seasons: corresponding to the cool, rainy winter seasons, we see dark layers composed mostly of dirt washed into the fjord from the land; in the warm summer months we see abundant fossilized fish scales and diatoms (the most common form of phytoplankton, or single-celled ocean plants) that have fallen to the fjord floor from nutrient-rich surface waters. In years when warm summers dominated climate in the region, we clearly see far thicker layers of diatoms and fish scales than we do in cooler years. Ours is one of the highest-quality climate records available anywhere today and in it we see obvious confirmation that natural climate change can be dramatic. For example, in the middle of a 62-year slice of the record at about 4,400 years ago, there was a shift in climate in only a couple of seasons from warm, dry and sunny conditions to one that was mostly cold and rainy for several decades.

Using computers to conduct what is referred to as a "time series analysis" on the colouration and thickness of the annual layers, we have discovered repeated cycles in marine productivity in this, a region larger than Europe. Specifically, we find a very strong and consistent 11-year cycle throughout the whole record in the sediments and diatom remains. This correlates closely to the well-known 11-year "Schwabe" sunspot cycle, during which the output of the sun varies by about 0.1%. Sunspots, violent storms on the surface of the sun, have the effect of increasing solar output, so, by counting the spots visible on the surface of our star, we have an indirect measure of its varying brightness. Such records have been kept for many centuries and match very well with the changes in marine productivity we are observing.

In the sediment, diatom and fish-scale records, we also see longer period cycles, all correlating closely with other well-known regular solar variations. In particular, we see marine productivity cycles that match well with the sun's 75-90-year "Gleissberg Cycle," the 200-500-year "Suess Cycle" and the 1,100-1,500-year "Bond Cycle." The strength of these cycles is seen to vary over time, fading in and out over the millennia. The variation in the sun's brightness over these longer cycles may be many times greater in magnitude than that measured over the short Schwabe cycle and so are seen to impact marine productivity even more significantly.

Our finding of a direct correlation between variations in the brightness of the sun and earthly climate indicators (called "proxies") is not unique. Hundreds of other studies, using proxies from tree rings in Russia's Kola Peninsula to water levels of the Nile, show exactly the same thing: The sun appears to drive climate change.

However, there was a problem. Despite this clear and repeated correlation, the measured variations in incoming solar energy were, on their own, not sufficient to cause the climate changes we have observed in our proxies. In addition, even though the sun is brighter now than at any time in the past 8,000 years, the increase in direct solar input is not calculated to be sufficient to cause the past century's modest warming on its own. There had to be an amplifier of some sort for the sun to be a primary driver of climate change.

Indeed, that is precisely what has been discovered. In a series of groundbreaking scientific papers starting in 2002, Veizer, Shaviv, Carslaw, and most recently Svensmark et al., have collectively demonstrated that as the output of the sun varies, and with it, our star's protective solar wind, varying amounts of galactic cosmic rays from deep space are able to enter our solar system and penetrate the Earth's atmosphere. These cosmic rays enhance cloud formation which, overall, has a cooling effect on the planet. When the sun's energy output is greater, not only does the Earth warm slightly due to direct solar heating, but the stronger solar wind generated during these "high sun" periods blocks many of the cosmic rays from entering our atmosphere. Cloud cover decreases and the Earth warms still more.

The opposite occurs when the sun is less bright. More cosmic rays are able to get through to Earth's atmosphere, more clouds form, and the planet cools more than would otherwise be the case due to direct solar effects alone. This is precisely what happened from the middle of the 17th century into the early 18th century, when the solar energy input to our atmosphere, as indicated by the number of sunspots, was at a minimum and the planet was stuck in the Little Ice Age. These new findings suggest that changes in the output of the sun caused the most recent climate change. By comparison, CO2 variations show little correlation with our planet's climate on long, medium and even short time scales.

In some fields the science is indeed "settled." For example, plate tectonics, once highly controversial, is now so well-established that we rarely see papers on the subject at all. But the science of global climate change is still in its infancy, with many thousands of papers published every year. In a 2003 poll conducted by German environmental researchers Dennis Bray and Hans von Storch, two-thirds of more than 530 climate scientists from 27 countries surveyed did not believe that "the current state of scientific knowledge is developed well enough to allow for a reasonable assessment of the effects of greenhouse gases." About half of those polled stated that the science of climate change was not sufficiently settled to pass the issue over to policymakers at all.

Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us.

Meantime, we need to continue research into this, the most complex field of science ever tackled, and immediately halt wasted expenditures on the King Canute-like task of "stopping climate change."

 
R. Timothy Patterson is professor and director of the Ottawa-Carleton Geoscience Centre, Department of Earth Sciences, Carleton University.


© National Post 2007
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #236 on: June 20, 2007, 04:41:57 PM »
wacki, we use ultramats at work in some applications.  They have the potential to be really accurate.  However, they really are only as accurate as the technicians maintaining them and gases used to calibrate them.  Lots of different factors can throw them off such as ambient temperature and such.  Errors of 5% to 15% are allowable depending on the application.  It's another one of those conditions that you have to assume to be true and make sure results are reproducible. 

In the very last post I made I posted this graph:



That's a line graph of 8 different stations.  Goto scripps and check the graph yourself by downloading the raw data.  Are you really going to tell me that those incredibly smooth and incredibly similar lines are just chance? 

BTW, Scripps disagrees with you about the 5-15% they say they are accurate to 1ppm.  I'd love to see which applications allow 5-15% error.

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #237 on: June 20, 2007, 06:00:27 PM »
Rich,

First you claimed 1800's technology being better than post 1956 technology in directly measuring CO2 levels. 

Since you could not be bothered to go back 5 pages, lets refresh teh readers with what I * ACTUALLY * said:

"Depends on what you are using them for, what you are using them on.  I can certainly envision circumstances where the more sophisticated equipment can be spoofed or fooled. "

Quote
Now you fail to understand the difference between short term noise and long term trends.
 

That is exactly the point I'm trying to make - you don;t have enough data for a "long term ttrend", and the amound of heating detected is only slightly above the inherent "noise" of the measuring systems.

 
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richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #238 on: June 20, 2007, 06:11:32 PM »

Quote
Quote
Water can sublimate - change form from solid to gas, or an intermediate liquid state, even at pressures far below crystalization - "freezing".  In its water state it can dissolve CO2 - in fact, it's MORE likely to do so when under pressure - like under hundreds of feet of snow and ice.  IF water sublimates to a liquid AND dissolves CO2, it can then migrate and move that CO2 - eventually completely out of hte sample.  Takes thousands of years to do it, but then again, the samples are....hundreds of thousands of years old.  Or to put it another way, the supposed C)2 levels inthe ice cores are calibrated against....what, exactly?


If your theory is correct then there would be irregularities in the ice cores.  The EPICA ice cores and the Vostok ice cores show no irregularity.


Uh,...WRONG!  The migration of CO2 would tend to REDUCE the amount in higher areas and INCREASE it in lower areas - until, millions of years later, the whole mass would have an almost constant level of CO2, except in the most recent layers - WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THE RECORD SHOWS!
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #239 on: June 21, 2007, 04:26:39 AM »
wacki, we use ultramats at work in some applications.  They have the potential to be really accurate.  However, they really are only as accurate as the technicians maintaining them and gases used to calibrate them.  Lots of different factors can throw them off such as ambient temperature and such.  Errors of 5% to 15% are allowable depending on the application.  It's another one of those conditions that you have to assume to be true and make sure results are reproducible. 

In the very last post I made I posted this graph:



That's a line graph of 8 different stations.  Goto scripps and check the graph yourself by downloading the raw data.  Are you really going to tell me that those incredibly smooth and incredibly similar lines are just chance? 

BTW, Scripps disagrees with you about the 5-15% they say they are accurate to 1ppm.  I'd love to see which applications allow 5-15% error.
wacki, smooth lines on a graph don't say a thing about accuracy of measuring equipment.  It only questions how the data was processed or normalized before it was graphed.  Assuming that data is good, it appears that all the measuring stations agree, however, you are looking multiple years with supposedly a very large number of data points, taken with different analyzers also I bet.  I suspect that a some "noise" was filtered out of those lines or only averages were graphed.  I suspect 300 ppm of CO2 in air shouldn't be a difficult measurement for that analyzer, but I would still expect more variation due to all sorts of different conditions.  If an analyzer is left sampling for a long period, you will see some drift, some calibration variances, some variances due to ambient conditions, etc.  I bet the calibration gas bottles see a greater than 1 ppm variance sometimes.  If one analyzer is taken out to different locations, you will likely have to leave it service a couple days and calibrate it several times to be sure it is accurate.  IMO, That particular data has been polished up.  I doubt it would change those results significantly, just don't interpret too much from the clean lines.

The 15% error limit is for the NOx and CO emissions analyzers we use for stack emissions monitoring.  15% is the magic number when we use for 3rd party accuracy testing.  It really is not as bad as it sounds when you think about it.  That analyzer is mounted in a sealed cabinet outside.  It has its own little cabinet air conditioner to keep the ambient conditions in the cabinet as steady as possible and it also helps purge out any flammable gases that might collect.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #240 on: June 21, 2007, 04:50:49 AM »

wacki, smooth lines on a graph don't say a thing about accuracy of measuring equipment.  It only questions how the data was processed or normalized before it was graphed.  Assuming that data is good, it appears that all the measuring stations agree, however, you are looking multiple years with supposedly a very large number of data points, taken with different analyzers also I bet.  I suspect that a some "noise" was filtered out of those lines or only averages were graphed. 


From Scripps
These are raw flask data and contain a lot of basic information..... Questionable data are flagged with asterisks. ....... UCO2:   Unflagged carbon dioxide data; this column repeats CO2, but without asterisks, for ease in plotting the data.

http://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/data/flask_co2_and_isotopic/alt_wk_co2.txt

make your own graphs from raw unfiltered data if you wish

Now you can stop "suspecting" and start knowing.

mountainclmbr

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #241 on: June 21, 2007, 07:44:58 AM »
It may be Global Cooling we should worry about:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4&p=4

Quote
Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us.

Just say no to Obama, Osama and Chelsea's mama.

mountainclmbr

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #242 on: June 21, 2007, 01:46:21 PM »


http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=22003a0d-37cc-4399-8bcc-39cd20bed2f6&k=0


Quote
Statistics needed
The Deniers -- Part I
 
Lawrence Solomon
National Post


Friday, February 02, 2007


Tuesday, November 28, 2006

In the global warming debate, there are essentially two broad camps. One believes that the science is settled, that global warming is serious and man-made, and that urgent action must be taken to mitigate or prevent a future calamity. The other believes that the science is far from settled, that precious little is known about global warming or its likely effects, and that prudence dictates more research and caution before intervening massively in the economy.

The "science is settled" camp, much the larger of the two, includes many eminent scientists with impressive credentials. But just who are the global warming skeptics who question the studies from the great majority of climate scientists and what are their motives?


The series



Statistics needed -- The Deniers Part I
Warming is real -- and has benefits -- The Deniers Part II
The hurricane expert who stood up to UN junk science -- The Deniers Part III
Polar scientists on thin ice -- The Deniers Part IV
The original denier: into the cold -- The Deniers Part V
The sun moves climate change -- The Deniers Part VI
Will the sun cool us? -- The Deniers Part VII
The limits of predictability -- The Deniers Part VIII
Look to Mars for the truth on global warming -- The Deniers Part IX
Limited role for C02 -- the Deniers Part X




Many in the "science is settled" camp claim that the skeptics are untrustworthy -- that they are either cranks or otherwise at the periphery of their profession, or that they are in the pockets of Exxon or other corporate interests. The skeptics are increasingly being called Deniers, a term used by analogy to the Holocaust, to convey the catastrophe that could befall mankind if action is not taken. Increasingly, too, the press is taking up the Denier theme, convincing the public that the global-warming debate is over.

In this, the first of a series, I examine The Deniers, starting with Edward Wegman. Dr. Wegman is a professor at the Center for Computational Statistics at George Mason University, chair of the National Academy of Sciences' Committee on Applied and Theoretical Statistics, and board member of the American Statistical Association. Few statisticians in the world have CVs to rival his (excerpts appear nearby).

Wegman became involved in the global-warming debate after the energy and commerce committee of the U.S. House of Representatives asked him to assess one of the hottest debates in the global-warming controversy: the statistical validity of work by Michael Mann. You may not have heard of Mann or read Mann's study but you have often heard its famous conclusion: that the temperature increases that we have been experiencing are "likely to have been the largest of any century during the past 1,000 years" and that the "1990s was the warmest decade and 1998 the warmest year" of the millennium. You may have also heard of Mann's hockey-stick shaped graph, which showed relatively stable temperatures over most of the last millennium (the hockey stick's long handle), followed by a sharp increase (the hockey stick's blade) this century.

Mann's findings were arguably the single most influential study in swaying the public debate, and in 2001 they became the official view of the International Panel for Climate Change, the UN body that is organizing the worldwide effort to combat global warming. But Mann's work also had its critics, particularly two Canadians, Steve McIntyre and Ross McKitrick, who published peer-reviewed critiques of their own.

Wegman accepted the energy and commerce committee's assignment, and agreed to assess the Mann controversy pro bono. He conducted his third-party review by assembling an expert panel of statisticians, who also agreed to work pro bono. Wegman also consulted outside statisticians, including the Board of the American Statistical Association. At its conclusion, the Wegman review entirely vindicated the Canadian critics and repudiated Mann's work.

"Our committee believes that the assessments that the decade of the 1990s was the hottest decade in a millennium and that 1998 was the hottest year in a millennium cannot be supported," Wegman stated, adding that "The paucity of data in the more remote past makes the hottest-in-a-millennium claims essentially unverifiable." When Wegman corrected Mann's statistical mistakes, the hockey stick disappeared.

Wegman found that Mann made a basic error that "may be easily overlooked by someone not trained in statistical methodology. We note that there is no evidence that Dr. Mann or any of the other authors in paleoclimate studies have had significant interactions with mainstream statisticians." Instead, this small group of climate scientists were working on their own, largely in isolation, and without the academic scrutiny needed to ferret out false assumptions.

Worse, the problem also applied more generally, to the broader climate-change and meteorological community, which also relied on statistical techniques in their studies. "f statistical methods are being used, then statisticians ought to be funded partners engaged in the research to insure as best we possibly can that the best quality science is being done," Wegman recommended, noting that "there are a host of fundamental statistical questions that beg answers in understanding climate dynamics."

In other words, Wegman believes that much of the climate science that has been done should be taken with a grain of salt -- although the studies may have been peer reviewed, the reviewers were often unqualified in statistics. Past studies, he believes, should be reassessed by competent statisticians and in future, the climate science world should do better at incorporating statistical know-how.

One place to start is with the American Meteorological Society, which has a committee on probability and statistics. "I believe it is amazing for a committee whose focus is on statistics and probability that of the nine members only two are also members of the American Statistical Association, the premier statistical association in the United States, and one of those is a recent PhD with an assistant-professor appointment in a medical school." As an example of the statistical barrenness of the climate-change world, Wegman cited the American Meteorological Association's 2006 Conference on Probability and Statistics in the Atmospheric Sciences, where only eight presenters out of 62 were members of the American Statistical Association.

While Wegman's advice -- to use trained statisticians in studies reliant on statistics -- may seem too obvious to need stating, the "science is settled" camp resists it. Mann's hockey-stick graph may be wrong, many experts now acknowledge, but they assert that he nevertheless came to the right conclusion.

To which Wegman, and doubtless others who want more rigourous science, shake their heads in disbelief. As Wegman summed it up to the energy and commerce committee in later testimony: "I am baffled by the claim that the incorrect method doesn't matter because the answer is correct anyway. Method Wrong + Answer Correct = Bad Science." With bad science, only true believers can assert that they nevertheless obtained the right answer.


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wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #243 on: June 21, 2007, 04:31:36 PM »
Quote
Wegman found that Mann made a basic error that "may be easily overlooked by someone not trained in statistical methodology. We note that there is no evidence that Dr. Mann or any of the other authors in paleoclimate studies have had significant interactions with mainstream statisticians." Instead, this small group of climate scientists were working on their own, largely in isolation, and without the academic scrutiny needed to ferret out false assumptions.

While this is true and Mann et. al did make a small mistake in their math one question you need to ask is whether or not it makes a discernible difference in the final results.  Wegman was highly critical of Mann but never answered this specific question.  Once you make the correction Wegman so forcefully suggests you get pretty much the exact same graph.

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2006/07/the-missing-piece-at-the-wegman-hearing/#more-328

Both the data and the source code are freely available through the AGU so you can check it yourself.  BTW Wegman has strong ties to the tobacco industry and oil barons.  Although you need to understand 200 level linear algebra Wegman's argument is pretty easy to debunk.


wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #244 on: June 21, 2007, 04:49:18 PM »
It may be Global Cooling we should worry about:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/comment/story.html?id=597d0677-2a05-47b4-b34f-b84068db11f4&p=4

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Solar scientists predict that, by 2020, the sun will be starting into its weakest Schwabe solar cycle of the past two centuries, likely leading to unusually cool conditions on Earth. Beginning to plan for adaptation to such a cool period, one which may continue well beyond one 11-year cycle, as did the Little Ice Age, should be a priority for governments. It is global cooling, not warming, that is the major climate threat to the world, especially Canada. As a country at the northern limit to agriculture in the world, it would take very little cooling to destroy much of our food crops, while a warming would only require that we adopt farming techniques practiced to the south of us.


I saw this on the news today and I must say this is actually pretty interesting.  There are some arguments in here that I haven't heard before which is a nice change of pace from the vast majority of skeptics.  The cosmic ray theory has been addressed ad nauseum via realclimate and countless other blogs.  That topic actually takes some chemistry and physics background to understand though.  This guy has given talks with industry hit men like "tobacco doesn't cause cancer" Singer and Tim Ball which is not exactly in the best interest for any reputable scientist to do.  Singer and Ball are at the bottom of the barrel.  Still, I can't fault any layman for taking this man seriously.  I'm short on time but I will revisit this article at a later date.  I'd like to know how much of this has made it through peer review.

MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #245 on: June 21, 2007, 06:17:21 PM »
Yeah, laymen wouldn't understand it anywhere near as well as you.   rolleyes
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mountainclmbr

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #246 on: June 21, 2007, 06:59:19 PM »
I am not sure I would call myself a layman. I am a systems engineer involved in satellite system development including some of the DMSP satellite systems and the much delayed NPOESS system. If you believe that CO2 disperses through the atmosphere with time, and if you believe that the sun is hot, therefore producing infrared (IR) radiation where the two narrow CO2 absorption lines occur, why do the satellite imagry of upper atmosphere temperatures not show increases in temperature? In fact they are fairly flat for our short period of observation, unlike surface temperatures. The surface temperatures vary greatly due to things such as ocean current fluctuation (like el nino), storm cycles, cloud layers, volcanic dust, visable/UV irradiance from the sun etc. The impression that IR comprises a major part of solar irradiation is a mistake from viewing log charts of solar irradiance by non-math people. Every major tick mark is 10X the last one. The ktB iradiance is pretty flat with frequency. As typically graphed, the IR spectrum should be magnified by 1X by scale. The visible should be magnified by roughly 10X by scale. And the UV should be magnified by roughly 100X by scale.  If you displayed greenhouse gas absorption frequencies linearly, you probably could not see the CO2 IR absorption lines. It is like saying flea farts will destroy us, but hurricane winds are negligable.

I don't expect to convert those whose religious faith is GW. I just don't want to be dragged down with them. If your salvation is Stalin or beheadding on top of a Mayan pyramid, may you reach your peer reviewed dreams. Just leave me out of it.
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wacki

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #247 on: June 22, 2007, 05:23:39 AM »
I am not sure I would call myself a layman. I am a systems engineer involved in satellite system development including some of the DMSP satellite systems and the much delayed NPOESS system. If you believe that CO2 disperses through the atmosphere with time, and if you believe that the sun is hot, therefore producing infrared (IR) radiation where the two narrow CO2 absorption lines occur, why do the satellite imagry of upper atmosphere temperatures not show increases in temperature?

Because that's not how greenhouse gases work.  The greenhouse effect cools the stratosphere (very high atmosphere) and warms the troposphere (low atmosphere).  This was predicted by the models and has been seen in observations.

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The surface temperatures vary greatly due to things such as ocean current fluctuation (like el nino), storm cycles, cloud layers, volcanic dust, visable/UV irradiance from the sun etc.


True but there is a pattern even if you can't see one.  Polar amplification (heating at the north pole now and south pole later) is a smoking gun of greenhouse warming.  That was predicted and it has been observed.


http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2005/

There are plenty of other patterns but I don't have time to go into those right now.

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The impression that IR comprises a major part of solar irradiation is a mistake from viewing log charts of solar irradiance by non-math people.

The greenhouse effect is INDEPENDENT of how much IR radiation the sun is emitting.  See this steel rod:



That nice pretty cherry red glow is sending off a lot of thermal radiation also known as infrared radiation. (as well as other spectrums of light obviously)  That is because the metal rod is hot.  Anything above zero degrees Kelvin emits IR.  You could block all IR irradiance from the sun and the greenhouse effect would still work.  The earth absorbs lots of different colors of light but emits them all back into space via infra-red.

see wikipedia for more info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect

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If you displayed greenhouse gas absorption frequencies linearly, you probably could not see the CO2 IR absorption lines. It is like saying flea farts will destroy us, but hurricane winds are negligable.

Well you are an engineer so you should have taken freshman/sophmore physics and a reasonable amount of math.  Calculate the watts per square meter and then convert that to degrees C.  You can figure out how much that flea fart really changes things.  I'll post a paper from 1896 that shows how to do this later.  Short on time.

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I don't expect to convert those whose religious faith is GW. I just don't want to be dragged down with them. If your salvation is Stalin or beheadding on top of a Mayan pyramid, may you reach your peer reviewed dreams. Just leave me out of it.

I have strong libertarian/conservative leanings.  By talking about global warming I'm agreeing with the liberal left and criticizing people I tend to associate with most.  I hope you can separate the emotional political ideology from the science.

richyoung

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #248 on: June 22, 2007, 06:04:04 AM »
I am SO GLAD you brought up thermodynamics wacki - how about you tell us what the Earth's theoretical "black body" temp calculates out, and the delta between that and the CURRENT Earth temp.  You DO agree that the "black body" temp is the absolute MAXIMUM temp, right?
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MechAg94

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Re: More Global Warming Skeptics
« Reply #249 on: June 22, 2007, 10:44:41 AM »
Um.....please explain again how global warming caused that steel rod to glow red hot?  I didn't get that.   Cheesy
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