Author Topic: What is Firefly? (Read 14038 times)

SomeKid · « **Reply #50 on:** June 15, 2007, 03:05:20 PM »

Actually, it wasn't Books character that really annoyed me. His portrayal diminishes the show, but not to the same degree as other things.

No, the real Christian bashing came in the Episode Safe.

Christians are portrayed as uneducated backwards kidnapping evil who burn people as witches at the stake. Oh, we are also led by a man who is also a murderer, and we kill innocents in the name of God. Maybe it is a testament to how little TV I watch, but that episode was the worst smear on Christians I have seen in years on TV.

onions! · « **Reply #51 on:** June 15, 2007, 05:06:09 PM »

I,quite literally,just finished watching the last episode.

The episode"Safe",w/the villagers & the whole burning at the stake didn't strike me as being particularly anti-Christian so much as anti-backwards.I too am aware of what happened @ Salem & the Spanish Inquisition,& Puritans & heretics et al.I might be wrong but what I saw there asid to me that religon can be a bad thing if taken out of context & twisted by people who choose not to think things through.

I think that having white Anglos burning a "witch" @ the stake just gave a point of reference of a Bad Thing that all of us could understand.

Strings · « **Reply #52 on:** June 15, 2007, 05:16:44 PM »

I have to say: you might want to grow a slightly thicker skin...

Yes, you COULD see Safe as a shot at Christianity. There are LOTS of things on TV that can be taken as shots at different religions... if the followers of those religions choose to take them as such...

Hell... we have examples in recent history of folks perverting Christianity to their own ends: Jonestown and David Koresh kinda leap to mind. Is it so unthinkable then, that someone in the future might do the same?

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #53 on:** June 15, 2007, 05:37:27 PM »

Amazon has had Firefly on sale for $19.99 now for several days. I don't expect that to last more than another week or two.

I didn't like the portrayal of the town folk at the end of Safe, either. I can't tell if the point was "narrow-minded intolerant people = bad", or if they were also implying that "religious people in general are narrow-minded intolerant people = bad." Hopefully just the former, and used the witch-burner stereotype as an example. In either case, I didn't take it to be a jab at Christians specifically.

The good news is, the episodes start getting much better, IMHO, at this point in your viewing, especially all of Disk 3 (I gave it three 9s and one 10). I rated Safe a 5 and Shindig a 4. It's frustrating to think about how good the shows could have been if it had the seven years to develop that some of the Star Trek series did.

When I first started watching the series, the two characters that I found annoying were River and Book. By the time I had finished the series, I realized they both heavily contributed to the mix of personalities, and the loss of either would have made the program more vanilla. They're kind of like jalapenos in chili: yes they're too hot, but without them you just have goulash.

SomeKid · « **Reply #54 on:** June 15, 2007, 05:53:12 PM »

Then what of the episode right after Safe? "Jaynetown". Where River tears the Bible apart calling it many untrue things, and the best the preacher can do is say it isn't a fact, it is about faith?

They may as well have come out and said the Bible is nothing but a fanciful book of lies.

Say what you will, but Firefly has a very not-so-subtle anti-Christian bias.

onions, at first I thought the same thing. However, the atrocious butchering of the Bible was what made it obvious it was anti-Christian, and not just anti-backwards idiot. They were portraying Christians as backwards idiots who burn people who are different. For a series with so much potential and such a great overall theme it is simply pathetic.

Strings, shall I call apples oranges? I do not need a thicker skin, I am making an observation. Instead of telling me to grow a thicker skin when I make an observation, why don't you just say 'Shut up Christian?" If however you disagree with my observation, why don't you try to disprove it? (And telling me to grow thicker skin and that other people have twisted religion for bad things does not disprove my assertion that Firefly has an anti-Christian bias in its episodes, Safe and JayneTown.)

Regardless, try to keep the thread about Firefly. I really did not want to turn this into a debate about Hollywood attacking my religion.

SB, I hope you are right. I do agree that the crazy girl and joke preacher add something; though so far I think the fake preacher detracts from the series far more than he adds.

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #55 on:** June 15, 2007, 06:09:50 PM »

I think the writer's point with Book and River at the beginning of Jaynestown where River tears pages out of the bible was that faith has a value beyond the literal meaning of what is being believed. This ties in with the end of the episode, where Jayne feels bad about what happened to the Mudders, and says the Mudders are probably rebuilding his statue. Mal then says yes that's true, but they need something to believe in, whether true or not, which is essentially (and intentionally) the same thing Book is telling River at the beginning of the episode.

Then, in the movie, Book tells Mal "I don't care what you believe ! Just ... believe it."

Although each episode was standalone, there were events that only made sense if you saw the episodes in order, and there were certain storylines (arcs) that were slowly developing in the background (River's story, Inara's story, Book's story, the Blue Sun Corporation, etc.) I think if the season had lasted three or four years all of these would have been completed, as well as new ones being created. Firefly ran for only 2/3 of one season, plus a movie. In the movie they did complete one of the arcs.

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #56 on:** June 15, 2007, 06:12:22 PM »

By the way, "Our Mrs. Reynolds" is in the sequence between "Safe" and "Jaynestown." Hopefully you're watching them in the DVD set sequence and not in the order Fox originally broadcast them.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #57 on:** June 15, 2007, 06:17:37 PM »

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Then what of the episode right after Safe? "Jaynetown". Where River tears the Bible apart calling it many untrue things, and the best the preacher can do is say it isn't a fact, it is about faith?

That would make me sad, too - the silly notion that one should have faith in that which is not believable - just for faith's sake. I have faith in the Bible BECAUSE it is factual.

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They're kind of like jalapenos in chili: yes they're too hot, but without them you just have goulash.

If you put jalapenos in my chili, I'm going to burn you at the stake. angry

First white chili, now green chili? Time for the cleansing rain.

SomeKid · « **Reply #58 on:** June 15, 2007, 07:25:47 PM »

Silver, I am watching them in order (well, I think. I tend to watch one entire DVD a day, if I start. So far, I have only done two DVDs of the four.) I did watch "Our Mrs..." and wow was that redhead hot. I would place her above the whore on looks. (Barely.)

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I have faith in the Bible BECAUSE it is factual.

Same. Nuff said.

It really pains me that such a good series had such serious flaws. I really mean it when I say that the anti-Christian bias is the only thing that is making the show unpleasant for me. It might be half an hour of great show, then a minute of just pure waste...it is sad.

Out of curiosity, what was the reason for cancellation? Low ratings?

Matthew Carberry · « **Reply #59 on:** June 15, 2007, 07:39:42 PM »

Somekid,

I'm as doctrinal as anyone in the world and I think you're projecting.

If the Inquisition (for example) wasn't doctrinally correct than it doesn't represent you or other true followers does it? So criticism of the Inquisition solely applies to folks who are misinterpreting doctrine, not believers in truth (you and me). Such criticism can thus be ignored.

Ergo, it is impossible to be offended since it isn't aimed at you.

The Bible is, in the end, just a book. So tearing it up, while tasteless, is meaningless. To believe it is "desecration" is idolatry.

Also, if someone without knowledge of the context of its writing wants to point out apparant flaws in Scripture, so what? Given the reality of Biblical history we do, in fact, take its Truth on faith. Historical accuracy can support that it reflects the temporal aspects more-or-less correctly, but only faith gives us assurance that the truth of G-d's relationship to man is reflected in it.
Lacking that faith, it is foolishness (per Scripture itself).

To worry about what a fictional show has to say, tangentally in fact, about faith is below a believer. We need to be better than worrying about such petty things.

Take the show for the good it has to say about courage, principles and family, especially family drawn together by "chance" (design?), and how faith can be regained through love.

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #60 on:** June 15, 2007, 07:43:13 PM »

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Out of curiosity, what was the reason for cancellation? Low ratings?

Low ratings. Fox aired the episodes out of order in 2002, including airing the pilot last, and was constantly preempting the shows for ball games. They made it difficult for viewers to follow along. There were enough die-hards, though, who clamored for a DVD set, and the set sold so well

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_4839242_8/102-1266266-8902520?ie=UTF8&docId=1000085231&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=right-1&pf_rd_r=0W68SZCX90WN19C4JY4T&pf_rd_t=1401&pf_rd_p=288846601&pf_rd_i=1000084481

that Universal took a chance and made the movie in 2005.

You will be happy to know that the character Saffron returns in a later episode. And no, she's not hotter than Inara !

wmenorr67 · « **Reply #61 on:** June 15, 2007, 08:38:04 PM »

I have the set and I am watching it in the order that the show was aired. The story line seems to follow that model. The last one I watched is War Stories. Plan on finishing up the series today and then the movie tonight or tomorrow.

Now for those who have watched the series and then also have the set, are you saying that the episode order in the set is the correct order? Because I have found so far that everything seems to fit in order based on viewing it in the aired order.

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #62 on:** June 15, 2007, 09:18:20 PM »

The order on the DVDs is the correct order:

Disk 1. Serenity Part 1 & 2, The Train Job, Bushwhacked
Disk 2. Shindig, Safe, Our Mrs. Reynolds, Jaynestown
Disk 3. Out of Gas, Ariel, War Stories, Trash
Disk 4. The Message, Heart of Gold, Objects in Space

The "air date" shown on the back of each cover shows the date that Fox showed the episodes, but they are not in the correct order for the story lines. Three of the episodes weren't aired at all.

The worst offender is the pilot episode Serenity Part 1 & 2. This was meant to be the shown first, pilot episode, but Fox decided it was too slow and didn't show it until the end of the series ("Air date:12/20/02"). You're supposed to watch it first, as it appears as the first episode on Disk 1. The others are in the correct order except that Shindig and Safe were aired three episodes late. I can't think of anything offhand that is revealed too late on those two, except possibly for the development of personal relationships. Objects in Space should be watched last, as it appears on the DVDs, and not before the unaired episodes.

Looking at the sequences, the order the episodes they were aired in isn't as severe as I thought, except for the pilot episode.

SomeKid · « **Reply #63 on:** June 15, 2007, 09:58:36 PM »

CB, that post was worth sitting back and thinking over; though I do not think I am projecting unless I am a self-hating Christian.

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6 a : the act of perceiving a mental object as spatially and sensibly objective; also : something so perceived b : the attribution of one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or to objects; especially : the externalization of blame, guilt, or responsibility as a defense against anxiety

While I see your point regarding how the Inquisitors and other doctrinally incorrect are not the same as me, the attacks ARE aimed at us, as the people who launch them believe all Christians are such. They are not only attacking the Jim Jones sect types, they are attacking all.

It is very possible I am attributing something to malice however that can better be explained by sheer unfettered ignorance. That is a point I think I may have overlooked. Perhaps I have been in college too long (where it IS a malicious attack on Christianity quite often). Though I do admit I still lean towards it being an anti-Christian bias, as it would fit well.

I agree wholeheartedly about its physical form being 'just' a book, and that it is tasteless. I don't think I ever said it was desecration, so I do not know where that came from. It would be idolatry though were I to believe such. The point of that scene which was an attack on Christianity is when the girl begins proclaiming the Bible wrong, and then the preacher backs her up by saying it doesn't have to be right, we just have to have faith in something that is wrong.

It isn't always below a believer, when these stereotypes are spread it sends people away from Christianity, sort of like when blacks were portrayed in movies as foaming at the mouthed rapists of white women. It didn't exactly form a positive image. A negative image of Christianity makes it harder for a Christian to witness to others. I have had multiple people tell me they were shocked I was a Southern Baptist. Why? Because I was not acting like a pretentious snob to them. Even here in the Bible Belt such beliefs have been formed. So, when someone who lacks knowledge of scriptures begins spouting off falsehoods and repeating the big lie as fact, it can cause damage.

And I do take the show for its good. It is the only way to enjoy the thing.

SB, I did notice when I looked into it that she comes back (I read the backs of the DVDs, so, I read the plots ahead of time). Yes, she IS hotter than the Brazillian chick.

wmenorr67 · « **Reply #64 on:** June 15, 2007, 10:07:49 PM »

Thanks for the input SB. Since I have actually watched everything in order of air date up to War Stories I will finish them in the order they are on the discs. Then I will go and watch the pilot, which was shown last.

Strings · « **Reply #65 on:** June 16, 2007, 12:11:15 AM »

>While I see your point regarding how the Inquisitors and other doctrinally incorrect are not the same as me, the attacks ARE aimed at us, as the people who launch them believe all Christians are such. They are not only attacking the Jim Jones sect types, they are attacking all.

It is very possible I am attributing something to malice however that can better be explained by sheer unfettered ignorance. That is a point I think I may have overlooked. Perhaps I have been in college too long (where it IS a malicious attack on Christianity quite often). Though I do admit I still lean towards it being an anti-Christian bias, as it would fit well.<

I think you're missing one very simple thing here: the majority religion of the States is Christianity (lumping all the denominations together). It's what most of us know. Showing a flipped-out perversion of such (as opposed to say, Buddhism) works because people will catch it: "Hey! That's not how that's supposed to go!". Had they used a different religion, most folks wouldn't have gotten the point that those villagers were messed-up in the 'eads...

As for River destroying the Bible, I think that was meant to do two things. 1) show that River's brain is seriously messed up (she couldn't get the idea of allegory). And 2) to make fun of those who try to explain the Bible in scientific terms

I've been a fan of Joss Whedon for awhile now. I have NEVER seen him purposely set out to offend any religion or ethnic group...

I have to ask though: do you get as upset when it's some other faith that appears to be belittled?

Manedwolf · « **Reply #66 on:** June 16, 2007, 03:58:22 AM »

Quote from: client32 on June 15, 2007, 01:55:45 PM

Avenger,
After watching the movie, it is my theory that Book was an "operative" or whatever the enemy guy was in the movie.
"Do you know what your sin is?" it just seems like the next career path for a man who has had all his views of the world and people shattered. After losing all faith in people like that, he might have been looking for a greater purpose.

According to theories based on script notes that didn't make it into the series and the movie, the reason why the Alliance sorts had given him immediate medical attention was that he was a respected, retired general.

Respected because he had, as a general, won the Battle of Serenity for the Alliance.

Would make sense, if serving on Mal's ship was his idea of penance, wouldn't it. How much more "christian" could you get?

SomeKid · « **Reply #67 on:** June 16, 2007, 09:19:55 AM »

Strings, I could go along with that, except it seems to go a bit beyond using Christianity as just a reference point. A prime example is Book. So far I have seen him used multiple times to be an example of bad things about Christianity, beyond just as a reference point for jokes or a story.

Regarding River tearing up the Bible. The physical tearing did not bother me. What showed an anti-Christian bigotry was not having River unable to understand. Basically she says it does not make sense, and it is full of contradictions. Book stands there, all but agreeing with her. How is having the token Christian agree the Bible is a fairy tale anything but an insult? It would have been just the same is Book had said 'You are right, burn the stupid thing, Christianity is false'.

As to your final question, maybe. Ever watch Family Guy? They take cheap shots at everyone. It is funny. If Firefly would do the same instead of just constantly attacking Christianity it wouldn't be the issue. Cheap shots can be funny (even when directed at me), but it gets old after the same thing gets done repeatedly.

Strings · « **Reply #68 on:** June 16, 2007, 09:33:39 AM »

>Regarding River tearing up the Bible. The physical tearing did not bother me. What showed an anti-Christian bigotry was not having River unable to understand. Basically she says it does not make sense, and it is full of contradictions. Book stands there, all but agreeing with her. How is having the token Christian agree the Bible is a fairy tale anything but an insult? It would have been just the same is Book had said 'You are right, burn the stupid thing, Christianity is false'.<

There are a LOT of ways that can be looked at: change in belief structure, personal belief, any number of things. I've met a great many Christians that do NOT look at the Bible as absolute, historical fact: it doesn't need to be such for them, as it presents a "greater truth". Would it REALLY shake your faith that much if parts of the Old Testament were proven to have happened differently than presented?

>As to your final question, maybe. Ever watch Family Guy? They take cheap shots at everyone. It is funny. If Firefly would do the same instead of just constantly attacking Christianity it wouldn't be the issue. Cheap shots can be funny (even when directed at me), but it gets old after the same thing gets done repeatedly.<

You seem to miss a VERY big point: they never had the CHANCE to take shots at anyone else, because it was cancelled early. What were they supposed to do: pick a faith to belittle each week? "Hey... let's show some Muslim fanatics in next week's episode! And maybe some Wiccans being flakey the week after that!"...

Manedwolf · « **Reply #69 on:** June 16, 2007, 11:43:31 AM »

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Regarding River tearing up the Bible. The physical tearing did not bother me. What showed an anti-Christian bigotry was not having River unable to understand. Basically she says it does not make sense, and it is full of contradictions.

Because it is. It was meant to be allegory lessons on a lot of things. Otherwise you'd have to believe things literally, which would mean that Adam and Eve's kids were doing each other, (there were no other people!) and that's just horrifically gross. Human civilization did not start with banjo music. Tongue

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #70 on:** June 16, 2007, 12:04:57 PM »

I don't want to get into that huge argument, so I'll just state my point of view. The Bible has no inaccuracies, contradictions, or lies. It means what it says, and says what it means, and does so with perfect historical and scientific accuracy.

Adam and Eve's children married one another, as you said, because there were no other people. There was nothing wrong with it, in that case. I wonder if it bothers you when Heinlein characters do it.

wmenorr67 · « **Reply #71 on:** June 16, 2007, 06:32:19 PM »

Finished up the series and then Serenity yesterday. While Serenity did a decent job of wrapping up a few of the loose ends, I wish that they could have had the chance to go into a little bit more of the backgrounds of the characters. Really would have liked to known a little more about Book's past. All in all if the show had been given half a chance on a network more available to everyone it may have lasted a few more seasons.

But then again considering all the guns, babes and more guns that the general populace wouldn't go for it. Plus it is rather anti-government.

Nick1911 · « **Reply #72 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:01:26 PM »

I just today finished watching the series, and then the movie. I thought it was fantastic - it relied on dialog and character interactions way more then CG.

It's really too bad it was canceled. I'm honestly surprised that another network didn't pick it up. sad

Silver Bullet · « **Reply #73 on:** June 16, 2007, 07:42:39 PM »

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I wish that they could have had the chance to go into a little bit more of the backgrounds of the characters.

Yup. Thats another way of saying you wish the series could have run for several years. Me too.

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it relied on dialog and character interactions way more then CG

The show actually received an Emmy for its special effects. I loved the way they would do an outer space shot of Serenity from a distance and out of focus, and then zoom in and in focus. Among other things, I liked the way they showed the ship approaching the net at the end of Our Mrs. Reynolds.

What I really find striking about the special effects is the way they were so economical with them; that is, they used them relatively (for a sci-fi show) sparingly. They didnt use it very much, so when we did see them it was like a splash of water thrown at a man dying of thirst in the desert. It was great, but left me wanting more. Thats actually good: it made the effects we received that much more stimulating.

Contrast that with certain other sci-fi shows where we get put to sleep by the enormous amount of on screen cheesy graphics.

ymmv

Boomhauer · « **Reply #74 on:** June 16, 2007, 09:06:04 PM »

All right, all right- you can have Bridget/Saffron/Yolanda, SomeKid. I'll take Kaylee and Inara. At least, they won't stab me in the back...

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But then again considering all the guns, babes and more guns that the general populace wouldn't go for it. Plus it is rather anti-government.

Which are it's best qualities, of course.

I think that yall would be interested to note that "Drive", which had the guy that played Mal in it, and similar twists of plot, etc, was cancelled after the first few episodes. Every time something good comes along, that I really like, it gets cancelled...

News:

Author Topic: What is Firefly? (Read 14038 times)

onions!

Strings

Strings

Strings