Why are so many sci-fi writers Libertarian minded?

[Matthew Carberry]

At least the ones I read, specifically military sci-fi?

Is it just that they all were inspired by Heinlein?  Is it something in the boot camp kool-aid? 

[Firethorn]

At least the ones I read, specifically military sci-fi?

Is it just that they all were inspired by Heinlein?  Is it something in the boot camp kool-aid? 

Could just be the authers you happen to be reading.  I hang out a lot with Baen, lots of libertarin authers there.

[Matthew Carberry]

Well, yeah. 

But even when they aren't L. Neil Smith types, there's very few sci-fi stories about how cool socialism is.

[Sindawe]

That's because being a successful Sci-Fi writer usually requires one to have some goodly measure of brains AND to use them.  People of that nature realize that socialism ain't cool.

[jcpershing]

I think one thing SF writers have to do is to build worlds that actually work and have internal consistency.  A system like Socialism sounds nice if you are a Utopian dreamer (or a six year-old), but most SF isnt based on a Utopia  where would you get the conflict in the story? 

Side point:  Check out some of Heinleins earliest writing.  For Us the Living in particular  published after his death but written in the 30s as I recall  is set in a world strongly influenced by Socialism.  To be fair, that was a popular mindset at the time:  Machines would soon be so productive that everyone would be supported by those few who chose to work simply to pass the time or because they loved running factories . . . or something.  The logic does tend to break down, of course.

John

[nico]

What about L. Ron Hubbard?  I haven't read any of his books (don't have enough tinfoil), but the cult he started isn't exactly run in a libertarian manner.

[MechAg94]

Orson Scott Card who wrote Ender's Game is not a libertarian I believe.  He wrote some great books, but he tends to the liberal/emotional side in a few of them.  At least, I have heard the direct sequels to Ender's Game were pretty liberal minded.  I read the sequel's following the Bean character and I didn't see that.  He is certainly not a communist, but I think he seems to support some mild socialist ideas.

There was one SciFi book I started reading that was so full liberal idealism and socialistic mindset that I put it down after a couple chapters.  I don't remember the title. 

There was another sort of SciFi book where NASA sponsors a trip to the moon Titan using a shuttle and a bunch of rockets they had.  The descriptions of politics and such in the US were very stereotypical.  The author's descriptions of Houston versus Seattle were telling.  It was obvious he hated Houston and loved Seattle to the point that it was pathetic to read.  I dropped that book about halfway through.

There are only a few books that I have actually just decided to stop reading. 

[roo_ster]

LR Hubbard was a passable SciFi writer, without too much political philosophy in his work, that I saw (Read Battlefield Earth, the Mission Earth series, and Blackout).

BE starts when human civ is shattered and small remnants remain only in the wildest of areas that are also radioactive (plot point).  Nothing really political, there.  I liked the book a lot.  I never saw the movie, on the advice of the poor, blighted souls who actually did waste that bit of their life.  You'd think that millionaire cultists could do better with their Messiah's works.

Blackout is some sort of dystopia where WWI never ended & the continent is going through the 20th-century equivalent of the 30/100 Years' War.  Decent for the genre.

ME series was so long I forgot about the earlier books as I read new ones in the series.  (An unconscious defense-mechanism?)   The scifi books of LRH's most laden with his Scientology prejudices vis a vis homosexuality & psychotherapy.

[roo_ster]

Also, Isaac Asimov was certainly not a libertarian.

I never got into his scifi, but found his non-fiction to be good stuff (Guide to the Bible, Physics).

His autobiography showed him to be one of the quintessential provincial urbanites.  The sort of guy who hated leaving his beloved New York City and rarely went west of the Hudson River.

Wikipedia writes of him:

Much of Asimov's fiction dealt with themes of paternalism...

Another frequent theme, perhaps the reverse of paternalism, is social oppression...

That jibes with what I read in his autobiography.

[AJ Dual]

I'd have to disagree that L. Ron's works, especially Battlefield Earth have little political philosophy in them. His hatred of Psychology and Psychologists is his political philosophy.

He goes to great pains to point out why the aliens (The Psychlos, even named them after Psychologists) were so evil and ran roughshod over the galaxy because long, long, ago, their psychologists took control of the civilization, and put metal wires and control units in their brains. They were then actually nice and decent aliens once the hero had the control devices removed from their brains.

Essentially L. Ron's entire career and the Church of Scientology was based on his hatred of Psychology after getting run out of the Navy. It's just taken on a life of it's own&

Also, in the period of the book after the defeat of the Psyclos, some of the other Galactic races that weren't destroyed, but did business with them seemed to be veiled national or ethnic stereotypes. Most prominently, the little grey gnomish galactic bankers seemed a pretty thinly disguised "Jewish Banker" anti-semetic stereotype to me.

[roo_ster]

AJ:

Thanks for reminding me about the BE/Psychlo back-history.  I do not think anyone not versed in the quackery at the roots of psychology in the late 19th century would necessarily equate the two, especially the Svengali-like nature of the back history.  As a kid (~5th grade) I did not.  Later on, I understood the model used for the Psychlo back-history, but it wasn't nearly as overt as LRH's later Mission Earth series.

Also, I don't think a hatred of something is a political philosophy.  LRH's dislike of psychology may or may not say something about his inner, uh, psyche.  It doesn't give us any hint as to how he felt about organizing society.

Same goes for anti-antisemitism.  It may be a characteristic of some faction some where, but is not a governing philosophy.

[Brad Johnson]

I used to be an avid reader, spending at least three or four hours reading every night.

There was a time when I really enjoy Piers Anthony until I read one of his novels that was overtly pedophilic (I think it was Shade of the Tree).  When he started justifying ways to have sex with a five year old girl that was it for me.  On that very day I took every book of his I had and threw them in the dumpster. 

I still enjoy Asimov, Niven, Sagan (some), Card, and Zahn, but I haven't had a chance to check out any of the newer SciFi and Fantasy authors.

Now I find myself drawn more to the essay-style humorist like Robert Fulghum.  Another series I used to have and absolutely loved was the Umpire trilogy by former big-league umpire Ron Luciano.  His unending diatribe about the battles with Earl Weaver were hysterical. Somehow they were lost over the years.  Loaned out and never returned, I imagine.

Brad

[MechAg94]

Newer authors:  Eric Flint, David Weber, David Drake.  Eric Flint has a book called Rats, Bats, and Vats that is very entertaining.  I think Pandora's Box was another good read. 

A guy named Saberhagen (sp?) wrote a short series about Berserkers trying to destroy all life.  I forget the author who started the Bolo series about self aware tanks.  Those were all over the place as far as politics.  Mostly books of short stories with Bolos bailing out short sited local govts against hordes of alien invaders.

[AJ Dual]

There was a time when I really enjoy Piers Anthony until I read one of his novels that was overtly pedophilic (I think it was Shade of the Tree).  When he started justifying ways to have sex with a five year old girl that was it for me.  On that very day I took every book of his I had and threw them in the dumpster. 

I had my suspicions about him. I was a Piers Anthony fan when I read the "Tyrant of Jupiter"/Hope Hubris series in high-school. It seemed like great stuff and quite innovative to me at the time. Although now his sci-fi world of just mapping 20th century Earth onto the Solar System is rather trite and weak in hindsight.

- North Jupiter = North America (Floating bubble cities in the gas giants&)
- South Jupiter = South America
- Jovian moons = Misc Hispaniola, Caribbean, Central America

- North Saturn = USSR
- South Saturn = China
- Saturn's Moons = Small Asian countries

Etc. etc. etc.

The main character is an illegal immigrant/refugee from Hispanic Jovian moons, gets turned away by North Jupiter/USA, his family is killed or enslaved by various pirate groups along the way. At the last minute in a deportation holding area he gets amnesty and enlists in the U.S. of Jupiter space navy. Then over several books he works his way up to the President of North Jupiter/USA (USJ?) He then becomes sort of an oxymoronic Libertarian/Leftist tyrant in a popular coup after the "Republicans" led by a painful Nixon-analogue kidnap him just before the election.

Back in '88 I thought it was pretty cool stuff. Now it's kind of painful.

There was indeed a lot of underage sex in his stories. He initially tried to give it context, like during the perilous refugee "boat" trip to Jupiter where they are beset on by pirates, and his sisters raped etc. and his own teenaged lover/bride gets killed. So at first you think he's just trying to shock you with the brutal life of his third-world analouges, and the dangers of refugees etc. However, when he's a famous Navy captian, he's charged with wiping out "asteroid pirates", and he makes an alliance with the "good pirates" who's only vice is running gambling rackets, and marries the teenaged daughter of their leader who only knows how to have sex (at first) if it's simulated rape. Then several years later while president/tyrant of the USofJ and pulling a "Henry V" and sneaking out in public in disguise, or away in a ship, he hooks up with a teenaged autistic girl with weird savant abilites who is in love with him.

At the time, as a horny fifteen year-old, a book with a fair amount  of sex with young teenage girls made all the sense in the world, and I didn't really give it much thought. Now,  in hindsight, I've got to wonder just where old Piers is at mentally.

Looking at his titles in Amazon.com, I notice one was called "Pornucopia"...

[roo_ster]

FWIW, Piers Anthony is a bit out there.  Someone who is a vegetarian but still feels remorse when mowing the lawn or eating veggies because he thinks they are in pain has some serious issues.

I got tired of PA after a while.

[AJ Dual]

FWIW, Piers Anthony is a bit out there.  Someone who is a vegetarian but still feels remorse when mowing the lawn or eating veggies because he thinks they are in pain has some serious issues.

I got tired of PA after a while.

Then I guess he really ought to focus on meditating to develop the ability to synthesize proteins from the nitrogen in the air...

[MechAg94]

I have never read Piers Anthony.  Not sure I will now. 

[Brad Johnson]

I have never read Piers Anthony.  Not sure I will now. 

His Phaze and Incarnations of Immortality series are quite imaginative and original, along with being good reads.  The Bio of a Space Tyrant series (the one AJ Dual was talking about above) is a complex political commentary rife with all kinds of ennuendo and strange sexual connotations, but still very entertaining. 

His perpetual Xanth series was really good for the first eight or ten books, then veered off in some very odd and slightly disturbing directions.  The Color of Her Panties, for example - an entire book dealing with pre-pubescent girls' undergarments.  Even a young man I thought the subject matter slightly strange.  Now I see it as completely wrong.

His standalone book Hard Sell is also a fun read even though it has a strong utopian-socialist subtext.

Brad

[AJ Dual]

His Phaze and Incarnations of Immortality series are quite imaginative and original, along with being good reads.  The Bio of a Space Tyrant series (the one AJ Dual was talking about above) is a complex political commentary rife with all kinds of ennuendo and strange sexual connotations, but still very entertaining. 

I'll agree it was entertaining, and the technology and natural resources he posited that allowed for colonization of the gas-giants was rather unique, but I won't say it was "politically complex", his entire backdrop was just 1980's Earth spread out on the Solar System. He even made complete 1:1 analogies with 20th century history having a "Solar System War 1 and 2", started by Germanic Eropeans from Neptune in both, and then the Japanese from Titan in the second, and a cold war between the U.S./Jupiter, and the USSR/Saturn.

It was kind of entertaining, but he didn't even do any real extrapolations, like Harry Turtledove where he at least creates an interesting "what if" scenario, then runs with what he thinks the ramifications would be.

He did do some other good stuff in the books though, like forseeing how fighters would be obsolete, and that armed drones under remote control would dominate space warfare, being better able to manuver, and not wasting space on fragile life-support systems, much like how the U.S., the dominant leader in air-combat, seems headded here on earth.

(edit) I just had to go look up that "panty book" on Amazon.

Just great, now the Amazon.com "AI" thinks I'm a perv, and I now see nothing but a mix of Piers Anthony books, children's underwear and women's lingerie on the front page and side-banners. I'm guessing it'll be stuck there for weeks now, lest I clear my cookies and cache...

I have to go look up a bunch of hard-SF and tools now to even things out.

[Sergeant Bob]

(edit) I just had to go look up that "panty book" on Amazon.

Just great, now the Amazon.com "AI" thinks I'm a perv, and I now see nothing but a mix of Piers Anthony books, children's underwear and women's lingerie on the front page and side-banners. I'm guessing it'll be stuck there for weeks now, lest I clear my cookies and cache...

I have to go look up a bunch of hard-SF and tools now to even things out.

That sure says a lot about the type of people who are reading his works, doesn't it?
That's assuming Amazon uses sampling based on what other buyers are interested in.

[Perd Hapley]

Check out some of Heinleins earliest writing.  For Us the Living in particular  published after his death but written in the 30s as I recall  is set in a world strongly influenced by Socialism.  To be fair, that was a popular mindset at the time:

According to an online bio I read (Wikipedia, I think), Heinlein was prone to socialism in his earlier years. 

[Matthew Carberry]

Check out some of Heinleins earliest writing.  For Us the Living in particular  published after his death but written in the 30s as I recall  is set in a world strongly influenced by Socialism.  To be fair, that was a popular mindset at the time:

According to an online bio I read (Wikipedia, I think), Heinlein was prone to socialism in his earlier years. 

Perhaps then my question should be modified to "recent".  Also note I mostly read military sci-fi and alternate history.

[SteveS]

I had my suspicions about him. I was a Piers Anthony fan when I read the "Tyrant of Jupiter"/Hope Hubris series in high-school. It seemed like great stuff and quite innovative to me at the time. Although now his sci-fi world of just mapping 20th century Earth onto the Solar System is rather trite and weak in hindsight.

I read these books in high school back in the 80's and re-read them about 10 years ago.  I thought they mostly enjoyable, though not overly thought provoking. 

While there are some libertarian sci-fi authors, I wouldn't say the percentage is any higher than you would find among all fiction authors.  There are certainly plenty of sci-fi that has a government solving the problems of society.

[MechAg94]

Check out some of Heinleins earliest writing.  For Us the Living in particular  published after his death but written in the 30s as I recall  is set in a world strongly influenced by Socialism.  To be fair, that was a popular mindset at the time:

According to an online bio I read (Wikipedia, I think), Heinlein was prone to socialism in his earlier years. 

Perhaps then my question should be modified to "recent".  Also note I mostly read military sci-fi and alternate history.

That kind of describes me lately.  I just got through reading 1684:  The Baltic War.  I haven't read a whole lot of other alternate history stuff though, just mostly the military SciFi.

[AJ Dual]

Check out some of Heinleins earliest writing.  For Us the Living in particular  published after his death but written in the 30s as I recall  is set in a world strongly influenced by Socialism.  To be fair, that was a popular mindset at the time:

According to an online bio I read (Wikipedia, I think), Heinlein was prone to socialism in his earlier years. 

I think Heinlein couched his socialisim within the context of his uber-capable protagonists though. And that was the problem. Those people don't exist in real life. Even our best heroes in history have had thier flaws, and collectivisim/socialisim is contrary to human nature. (except within a small family group) Capitalisim sublimates our aquisitive and competitive urges into a framework that at least gives everyone a chance, socialisim denies human nature completely, and it fails.

You could have any political system you wanted, monarchy, fascisim, communisim, and any of them would "work" if they were populated and staffed with "perfect" people who were all 100% hard working, honest, dedicated etc.