Author Topic: Origins of Islam  (Read 5453 times)

Werewolf

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Origins of Islam
« on: June 06, 2005, 02:14:59 PM »
I'm no religious scholar or historian to be sure. But based on the few things I do know (or think I know) I started wondering about the origins of Islam.

1) Allah is the same GOD that both the Christians and Jews worship.
2) Islam recognizes Christ as a prophet
3) Because Mary is the mother of a prophet Islam holds her in some reverance
4) Mohamed was a semite just like the Jews and his stomping grounds were Israel and that area
5) Islam arrose around the mid 600's or so

Christianity sprang from Judaism and Christ was a Jew not a Christian

Based on the above I'm wondering what the heck Mohamed was - is it possible he was a jew or even a christian prior to his getting the word from GOD and putting together the Koran? Zoroastrian maybe?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Origins of Islam
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2005, 02:41:42 PM »
I don't think there is one answer to your question. Traditionally, Muslims are thought to be the descendents of Ishmael.

Arabs prior to Muhammed had varying beliefs..mostly pantheistic, the chief God being Al-Lah who was recognized by some, and especially Muhammed, as the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians. It should be noted that even among Jews, there was not always strict monotheism (there was supposed to be, but in practice, they often took on the "gods" of the neighborhood.) Christians didn't really adopt other gods, they melded their prior beliefs and practices in with Christianity.

Al-Lah, btw..is the Arabic word for God in general, not always a specific deity. My father's ancestors called God Allah but were Catholics. Also, they were ruled by Muslims for a couple of centuries, but were allowed to remain Christian. They just had to pay an extra tax, but weren't harmed for their religion or forced to convert.

jefnvk

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Origins of Islam
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2005, 02:52:36 PM »
IMHO, you are correct.

The dividing factor seems to be Christ, and the time after him.

Jews find him to be a blasphemere.
Christians find him to be the savior.
Muslims find him to be a prophet, like the Jews and Christians would find people like Moses and Abraham.

The thing I can't understand, is the three groups are at war over how to properly praise the same God.

My understanding, is that Mohammed was a merchant from a poor family.  He wasn't always a holy man.  My understanding also is that he was not particularly religious when he started recieving his visions.  I don't think it was so much as reforming his religion, but the combination and expansion of both Christianity and Judaism.  Supporting the fact that he might have been Jewish, though,was the fact that he originally taught Muslims to pray towards Jerusalem.

Quote
My father's ancestors called God Allah but were Catholics. Also, they were ruled by Muslims for a couple of centuries, but were allowed to remain Christian. They just had to pay an extra tax, but weren't harmed for their religion or forced to convert.
At one time, Muslims were the tolerant ones, and Christians the ones out to make everyone convert.  Supposedly, when the Ismalic armies made it to Egypt, the Coptic (sp?) Christians surrendered to them becaue they would rather live under Ismalic rule than Christian rule.
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Sindawe

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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2005, 03:04:34 PM »
Quote
The thing I can't understand, is the three groups are at war over how to properly praise the same God.
Well, maybe all three are wrong, and its the adherents of Ahimsa who know the real score.
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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2005, 03:09:16 PM »
Ahimsa? Those jerks, always trying to dominate everything. Sheesh!


Smiley

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« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2005, 03:32:28 PM »
I'll echo what Jeffnvk said.  I have a book written by a rabbi in Turkey in the 1800s and he says clearly twice in the book that Jews have a better lot living under the Muslims than under the Christians in Europe.
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bratch

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« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2005, 03:46:39 PM »
We all know Scientology is the answer Wink

On a serious note I have a good friend who is "Chrislum"  I'll ask him.

Sindawe

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« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2005, 03:54:30 PM »
Quote
We all know Scientology is the answer
Yep, and the question was "Can I make a more successful religion than Robert Heinlein did?"
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Justin

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« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2005, 06:13:54 PM »
Sindawe, I think you mean L. Ron Hubbard.  Smiley
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Sindawe

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« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2005, 06:25:56 PM »
Justin:  No, the joke goes "Heinlein and Hubbard made a wager to see who could produce a peice of fiction that would found a successful religion.  Heinlein went on to write Stranger in A Strange Land, while Hubbard wrote Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health.  As a result, we now have Churches of Scientology, but no Churches of Saint V. M. Smith."
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bratch

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Origins of Islam
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2005, 06:27:58 PM »
I talked to my friend.  He said he was a little shaky in his history but...

Mohamed was a merchant and traveled with the Christians.  This is where he learned of a single god.  While meditating in a cave an Angel brought him the Koran in pieces and he memorized it and had advisors write it down.

The way he understood it was Mohamed was philosophic but not religious before the Koran.

Glock Glockler

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« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2005, 06:49:30 PM »
"Mohamed was a merchant and traveled with the Christians.  This is where he learned of a single god"

Mohamad's wife was a Jew, that might have had something to do with it.

jefnvk

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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2005, 08:34:42 PM »
I don't believe the Koran was wrotten while Mohammed was alive.  He would recite it to his followers verbose.  Years after he died, the stories started to vary a little bit, and tehy then decided they needed to write it.
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Azrael256

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« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2005, 09:45:26 PM »
Jefnvk, more than you might realize.  The Qu'ran, technically, is never written.  The book is a transcription of the Qu'ran.  The word means "recitation."  Some of his recitations were written during his lifetime, but records are sketchy.  So sketchy, in fact, that the entire Qu'ran is thoroughly disorganized.  It is not arranged in a literary order, but by the length of the suras.

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Arabs prior to Muhammed had varying beliefs..mostly pantheistic
Sorta.  The Arabs that Muhammad was after didn't just worship gods in the all-powerful yet etherial sense.  They worshipped megaliths, too.  You might know of one, it's called the Ka'aba.  It's the big stone thing they walk in circles around.  Muhammad was smart enough to retain some of the old elements, just like Christianity maintains a number of elements of Orphism.  It's easier to sell when it's somewhat familiar.  He also retained the supreme God Al'lah, and his wife Al'lat.  The Ka'aba is her shrine, not Al'lah's.  The priests at her shrine were known as her "sons" even in the Islamic tradition.  Of course, she got edited out later.

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Mohamed was a merchant and traveled with the Christians
Gnostic Christians.  It's an important distinction.  Most modern Christians wouldn't recognize a Gnostic (no value judgement implied, they're just that different).  Muhammad saw that the Christians and Jews were organized and productive.  The Arabs were decidedly not so.  Muhammad became disillusioned with the Arabs, and retreated to a cave on Mt. Hira to meditate on the problem.  It was there, in 610, that Gabriel appeared to him and gave him the Qu'ran.  

It should be noted that the Qu'ran was thoroughly gutted around 651 by caliph Uthman who didn't care for this upstart religion.  He revised the book to make it more acceptable.  Islam does revere Mary, but the revised book is rather unfair when it comes to women, so she is not venerated in the text as perhaps she should be (or was in the original).  For the record, Muhammad was decidedly not a mysoginist.  That descends from the fine Persian tradition of treating women as property.  It's a cultural thing, not a religious thing.

All this talk you hear about Shari'a is poppycock.  It came along more than a hundred years later, and the guy who supposedly got all of it from the Qu'ran got his head chopped off for fabricating his source material.  How's that, Dan Rather...  You will also find the line "The ink of the scholar is holier than the blood of the martyr." in The Qu'ran.

jefnvk

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Origins of Islam
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2005, 09:48:22 PM »
Well, I guess I didn't waste my money on that World History class after all.
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Iapetus

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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2005, 01:06:00 AM »
Quote from: jefnvk
The thing I can't understand, is the three groups are at war over how to properly praise the same God.
Probably in an attempt to stop them warring among themselves over how to praise Him.

Big_R

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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2005, 05:54:43 AM »
Quote from: Iapetus
Quote from: jefnvk
The thing I can't understand, is the three groups are at war over how to properly praise the same God.
Probably in an attempt to stop them warring among themselves over how to praise Him.
More like arguing over who has the better imaginary friend.

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Origins of Islam
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2005, 10:58:23 AM »
for what it's worth, there a mounting pile of evidence of Yahwwe (sp?) having a wife also, often refered to as the Queen of Heaven. I'll see if I can dig up the info, if people want...

K Frame

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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2005, 11:08:57 AM »
Probably the best way of saying it is that all are children of Abraham.

Its from which child the tribes spring is where it starts to get ugly.
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Standing Wolf

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Origins of Islam
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2005, 01:52:16 PM »
Quote
More like arguing over who has the better imaginary friend.
Very well said!
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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2005, 03:00:37 PM »
Quote
for what it's worth, there a mounting pile of evidence of Yahwwe (sp?) having a wife also, often refered to as the Queen of Heaven. I'll see if I can dig up the info, if people want...
Yes, please.

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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2005, 04:20:37 PM »
Ok... I'd just give a link, but it's on a forum that requires membership (one of the few GOOD pagan forums out there). So cut and paste time!

>Earlier today I happened across an article in the March/April '05 issue of the magazine Archaeology entitled "The Lost Goddess of Israel." It's essentially a precis of William H. Dever's new book Did God Have a Wife?, which argues that, based on recent archaeological discoveries, Israelite religion prior to the Babylonian captivity countenanced not only "the One God" Yahweh but also his consort, Asherah. Here's an exerpt:
Quote:
There are more than 40 references to Asherah in the Old Testament. What could she have meant to the people of monotheistic ancient Israel? A bit too much, apparently, at least according to the authors of the biblical texts, who attack her relentlessly. [Several] passages reflect both the worship of Asherah and efforts to stamp out her cult during the Iron Age. But it was only in the succeeding Persian period, after the fall of Judah in 586 b.c. and the exile in Babylon, that Asherah virtually disappeared.
Ultimately, the campaign to eliminate the goddess has failed. "Asherah was buried long ago by the Establishment," declares respected biblical scholar William H. Dever. "Now, archaeology has excavated her." Dever is quite certain that he knows who the Asherah of ancient Israel and of the biblical texts is--she is the wife or consort of Yahweh, the one god of Israel. Many of his colleagues would agree.

The main archaeological evidence involves numerous inscriptions invoking the blessing of "Yahweh by his Asherah" as well as carvings on jars and cult stands of a female divinity figure.<

Anybody wanting to read the thread it's at http://forums.timerift.net/viewtopic.php?t=3820

 Does require registration though...

stevelyn

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Origins of Islam
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2005, 07:10:49 PM »
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What I can't understand, is the three groups are at war over how to worship the same God.
Hmmmpf................Think that's bad, you ought to see and hear how so-called Christians fight and bad-mouth each other's beliefs. They'll tell you how everybody else's beliefs/denominations are all scewed up, but they have no clue as to what their own beliefs are. Talk about holy wars. rolleyes
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Iapetus

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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2005, 04:57:42 AM »
Quote from: Hunter Rose
Ok... I'd just give a link, but it's on a forum that requires membership (one of the few GOOD pagan forums out there). So cut and paste time!

>Earlier today I happened across an article in the March/April '05 issue of the magazine Archaeology entitled "The Lost Goddess of Israel." It's essentially a precis of William H. Dever's new book Did God Have a Wife?, which argues that, based on recent archaeological discoveries, Israelite religion prior to the Babylonian captivity countenanced not only "the One God" Yahweh but also his consort, Asherah. .
Hmmm...

Would that coupling have been where the "sons of God" came from?

Genesis 6:4 (King James Version)
   4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.


Another thing I've often wondered about events as chronicaled in the Bible:
After Cain killed Abel, he was bannished.  And Cain was worried that anyone who found him would kill him:
Genesis 4:11-16
Quote
11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

   12When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

   13And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

   14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

   15And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

   16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
So what I want to know is:
If Adam and Eve were the first people, and Cain and Able their first children, who else would there be to attack Cain?

roo_ster

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Origins of Islam
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2005, 06:14:22 AM »
I wouldn't put too much store in the "Yahweh's wife" hypothesis.  The Hebrews fell into pagan worship many times,   Asherah/Astarte/A-whatever being just one of the many local pagan gods.  

The usual cycle was:
1. Not clear out the pagans from their environs.
2. Take the daughters of local pagans as wives.
3. Start pagan worship themselves
4. Get fundament kicked & become conquered due to lack of obidience to God's commands (and the loss of unity that their monotheistic faith brought them).
5. A leader or prophet rallies them back to unity with God & each other
6. Throw off yoke of oppressors
7.  Begin cycle anew...
Regards,

roo_ster

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