Author Topic: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown  (Read 1327 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,200
New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« on: July 08, 2007, 10:21:27 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/09/nyregion/09ring.html?_r=2&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

Quote
July 9, 2007
New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown

By CARA BUCKLEY
By the end of this year, police officials say, more than 100 cameras will have begun monitoring cars moving through Lower Manhattan, the beginning phase of a London-style surveillance system that would be the first in the United States.

The Lower Manhattan Security Initiative, as the plan is called, will resemble Londons so-called Ring of Steel, an extensive web of cameras and roadblocks designed to detect, track and deter terrorists. British officials said images captured by the cameras helped track suspects after the London subway bombings in 2005 and the car bomb plots last month.

If the program is fully financed, it will include not only license plate readers but also 3,000 public and private security cameras below Canal Street, as well as a center staffed by the police and private security officers, and movable roadblocks.

This area is very critical to the economic lifeblood of this nation, New York Citys police commissioner, Raymond W. Kelly, said in an interview last week. We want to make it less vulnerable.

But critics question the plans efficacy and cost, as well as the implications of having such heavy surveillance over such a broad swath of the city.

For a while, it appeared that New York could not even afford such a system. Last summer, Mr. Kelly said that the program was in peril after the citys share of Homeland Security urban grant money was cut by nearly 40 percent.

But Mr. Kelly said last week that the department had since obtained $25 million toward the estimated $90 million cost of the plan. Fifteen million dollars came from Homeland Security grants, he said, while another $10 million came from the city, more than enough to install 116 license plate readers in fixed and mobile locations, including cars and helicopters, in the coming months.

The readers have been ordered, and Mr. Kelly said he hoped the rest of the money would come from additional federal grants.

The license plate readers would check the plates numbers and send out alerts if suspect vehicles were detected. The city is already seeking state approval to charge drivers a fee to enter Manhattan below 86th Street, which would require the use of license plate readers. If the plan is approved, the police will most likely collect information from those readers too, Mr. Kelly said.

But the downtown security plan involves much more than keeping track of license plates. Three thousand surveillance cameras would be installed below Canal Street by the end of 2008, about two-thirds of them owned by downtown companies. Some of those are already in place. Pivoting gates would be installed at critical intersections; they would swing out to block traffic or a suspect car at the push of a button.

Unlike the 250 or so cameras the police have already placed in high-crime areas throughout the city, which capture moving images that have to be downloaded, the security initiative cameras would transmit live information instantly.

The operation will cost an estimated $8 million to run the first year, Mr. Kelly said. Its headquarters will be in Lower Manhattan, he said, though the police were still negotiating where exactly it will be. The police and corporate security agents will work together in the center, said Paul J. Browne, the chief spokesman for the police. The plan does not need City Council approval, he said.

The Police Department is still considering whether to use face-recognition technology, an inexact science that matches images against those in an electronic database, or biohazard detectors in its Lower Manhattan network, Mr. Browne said.

The entire operation is forecast to be in place and running by 2010, in time for the projected completion of several new buildings in the financial district, including the new Goldman Sachs world headquarters.

Civil liberties advocates said they were worried about misuse of technology that tracks the movement of thousands of cars and people,

Would this mean that every Wall Street broker, every tourist munching a hot dog near the United States Court House and every sightseer at ground zero would constantly be under surveillance?

This program marks a whole new level of police monitoring of New Yorkers and is being done without any public input, outside oversight, or privacy protections for the hundreds of thousands of people who will end up in N.Y.P.D. computers," Christopher Dunn, a lawyer with the New York Civil Liberties Union, wrote in an e-mail message.

He said he worried about what would happen to the images once they were archived, how they would be used by the police and who else would have access to them.

Already, according to a report last year by the civil liberties group, there are nearly 4,200 public and private surveillance cameras below 14th Street, a fivefold increase since 1998, with virtually no oversight over what becomes of the recordings.

Mr. Browne said that the Police Department would have control over how the material is used. He said that the cameras would be recording in areas where theres no expectation of privacy and that law-abiding citizens had nothing to fear.

It would be used to intercept a threat coming our way, but not to collect data indiscriminately on individuals, he said.

Mr. Browne said software tracking the cameras images would be designed to pick up suspicious behavior. If, for example, a bag is left unattended for a certain length of time, or a suspicious car is detected repeatedly circling the same block, the system will send out an alert, he said.

Still, there are questions about whether such surveillance devices indeed serve their purpose.

There is little evidence to suggest that security cameras deter crime or terrorists, said James J. Carafano, a senior fellow for homeland security at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative research group in Washington.

For all its comprehensiveness, Londons Ring of Steel, which was built in the early 1990s to deter Irish Republican Army attacks, did not prevent the July 7, 2005, subway bombings or the attempted car bombings in London last month. But the British authorities said the cameras did prove useful in retracing the paths of the suspects cars last month, leading to several arrests.

While having 3,000 cameras whirring at the same time means loads of information will be captured, it also means there will be a lot of useless data to sift through.

The more hay you have, the harder it is to find the needle, said Mr. Carafano.

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2007, 04:50:00 AM »
They voted for it. They can enjoy their serfdom, complete with daily fees courtesy of the eyes they put upon themselves.

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,492
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2007, 05:10:36 AM »
This really shouldn't surprise anyone.  It's just the direction the world is heading, and will probably continue to.

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2007, 05:20:24 AM »
Well, it's cyclical. In the past, it's gone like that for a while, then some people lose their heads, some tea gets thrown off a boat, or some stuff gets smashed, and there's reform for a while. Then it starts again as people get complacent.

ilbob

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,546
    • Bob's blog
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2007, 05:45:55 AM »
I think the chances of any of this stuff actually working at present is nil. All they will get is a bunch more raw data to sift through. Until the software improves so you can actually mine the data, it is pretty useless, except maybe as a forensics tool after the fact.

I am less concerned about video surveillance as a crime fighting tool than having machine gun toting cops on every corner. In some respects video is not especially intrusive, especially if no human has to watch it all the time.

I don't know how much expectation of privacy you have when you are walking on a public sidewalk or using a public street, but mine is pretty low.

As for using license plate readers to bill you for entering certain areas, how is that significantly different than the RF readers installed in place of toll booths? IMO if there is going to be a fee collected, it is far better it be collected in the most cost effective way, using the fewest government employees possible. It would certainly be impractical to set up toll booths on a city street without causing far worse traffic tie-ups than already exist.

I am not overjoyed with the idea of paying to drive where it used to be free, but quite frankly, there is a limit to how many cars can physically be on the streets at one time. The only solutions are more streets or fewer cars. In a built-up area, the more streets option is not a good one to pursue so you need to find a way to reduce the number of cars.

Put me in the category of those who think video surveillance is not much of a deterrent at present. The crooks and terrorists know the grainy images are almost useless beyond about 15 feet. However, the newer generation of digital high resolution cameras becoming available is a different matter. They have far more potential.

I think the face recognition technology has a lot of promise too, but the video technology to make it practical is only now becoming available. I have no issue whatsoever with catching crooks by matching the faces of people walking down the street to those of known criminals. Cops have been doing this for years. Once the technology gets to the point where it actually works, we can use it to put crooks in jail where they belong.

As for the idea that it can detect suspicious behavior, I think that also has some merit. Cops have been doing this for many years as well, and cameras don't sleep.
bob

Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer, cop, soldier, gunsmith, politician, plumber, electrician, or a professional practitioner of many of the other things I comment on in this forum.

Manedwolf

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,516
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2007, 05:56:30 AM »
Quote
I am less concerned about video surveillance as a crime fighting tool than having machine gun toting cops on every corner. In some respects video is not especially intrusive, especially if no human has to watch it all the time.

Poorly trained machine gun toting cops.

Pictures like this, from Logan Airport, scare the crap out of me because I know how little range time a lot of cops have, just the bare minimum to qualify. These are just regular state troopers, not any kind of special response forces. And they're running around terminals with SMGs. Yay.



Then there was this photo of one of NYC's finest, standing on guard. See any problem with his scope, there? O_o


Look where the knob is...It's...backwards...

RadioFreeSeaLab

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,200
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2007, 05:58:40 AM »
Yeah, but just look how important they feel!

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2007, 01:05:55 PM »
Good!  Now the next time there is a suicide bombing, they can catch the culprits  rolleyes
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Paddy

  • Guest
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2007, 02:57:32 PM »
I give a crap less what they do in NY.  It can sink into the Atlantic for all I care.

Nitrogen

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,755
  • Who could it be?
    • @c0t0d0s2 / Twitter.
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2007, 10:25:13 PM »
I think the chances of any of this stuff actually working at present is nil. All they will get is a bunch more raw data to sift through. Until the software improves so you can actually mine the data, it is pretty useless, except maybe as a forensics tool after the fact.

I am less concerned about video surveillance as a crime fighting tool than having machine gun toting cops on every corner. In some respects video is not especially intrusive, especially if no human has to watch it all the time.


There was a thing on CNN about this today.  The UK has stated that their camera net allowed them to catch some kind of terror suspect.  (I was only half paying attention because I was at the gym at the time.)
They also showed a feelgood video about a woman being assulted and the cops showed up in 2 mins because they saw the assault happening live.

My problem isn't so much the privacy aspect (its a problem, but not the one I worry about) but the complacency it can cause.  If you've ever read any Superman graphic novels, you'll see that in many of them, one of Superman's concerns is how people become complacent because he's there saving everyone all the time.  In on, "Red Son", people stop wearing seatbelts, and do other dangerous, unsafe behavior because Superman will save their bacon if they are in trouble.

My fear is, that people will make poor decisions because, "the cops can see if there's trouble."   It's just another reason for people to neglect their own safety, and another reason for them to not be self dependent.

I had a dream the other night.  In that dream, a 3rd political party came up and basically said, "If you're afraid of terrorists, buy a gun and a rifle.  If you see someone planting a bomb; shoot them.  Your safety from terrorists is YOUR OWN responsibility."

If a political candidate said that, and had a plan to make that work, they'd have more reason to get my vote than anyone else currently running.

But I digress...
יזכר לא עד פעם
Remember. Never Again.
What does it mean to be an American?  Have you forgotten? | http://youtu.be/0w03tJ3IkrM

El Tejon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,641
    • http://www.kirkfreemanlaw.com
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2007, 02:36:03 AM »
Is the female Mass. State cop's HK54 off safe? shocked
I do not smoke pot, wear Wookie suits, live in my mom's basement, collect unemployment checks or eat Cheetoes, therefore I am not a Ron Paul voter.

doczinn

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: New York Plans Surveillance Veil for Downtown
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2007, 05:35:15 AM »
Quote
They also showed a feelgood video about a woman being assaulted and the cops showed up in 2 mins because they saw the assault happening live.
That's "feelgood?" She got assaulted!

Idiots.
D. R. ZINN