Light-bulb ban craze exceeds disposal plans

[Firethorn]

In the six years I've been using CFL's, I've lost exactly one.  That I dropped.   

Cleanup isn't as bad as what they state, and with the longer lifespans I figure fewer will get dropped on average.

ilbob, I second the recommendation to have your power checked out.  Computer equipment actually tends to be more forgiving than many other pieces of equipment of 'dirty' power.  A multimeter capable of measuring AC voltage and hertz would be a basic test, but higher level equipment would be needed to test beyond that.

When you use incandescent lighting, does it last as long as they say, or frequently fail quickly?  Have you had problems with the motor in your washer/dryer/dishwasher/vacuum?

It might even be limited to a specific phase/circuit, thus giving you long lasting bulbs that have 'good' power, while you keep replacing the bulbs in the 'bad' power.  I'd suggest trying a swap.  Move old bulb to socket that's had failed bulbs in it, and new bulb in old socket.

[charby]

"It also contained diethylene glycol."

A Simpsons episode springs to mind...

Vino diethylene glycol

[ilbob]

"My beef with them is that the claimed life expectancy is seriously overrated."

I have three in fixtures outside my home.

The two in front have been in the fixtures for 3 years each, had burn an average of 8 hours a day, every day.

The one on the back patio has been in the fixture for 5 years, and has been on 24x7x365.


"Many have failed within a few days."

I've never had one fail after a few days; far from it.

You may wish to see if you have issues with your power supply or grounding.

I have a couple in outside fixtures that have been there for 3 or 4 years. They don't get left on 8 hours a day, but they have lasted a long time.

I doubt there is anything wrong with my power. I never had any issues with normal bulbs and I have fixtures with multiple bulbs in them where one bulb has been there for 4 or 5 years and another failed in a few days.

BTW, grounding is not a solution to power quality problems, and in fact has nothing to do with it at all.

[K Frame]

"BTW, grounding is not a solution to power quality problems, and in fact has nothing to do with it at all."

Note that I said power supply OR grounding. Two separate issues.

While it's unlikely, a grounding issue could possibly cause problems with the electronics in these bulbs.

[ilbob]

"BTW, grounding is not a solution to power quality problems, and in fact has nothing to do with it at all."

Note that I said power supply OR grounding. Two separate issues.

While it's unlikely, a grounding issue could possibly cause problems with the electronics in these bulbs.

What possible grounding issue could cause a CFL to fail?

[Bogie]

Heck, I've got one circular thingie that has been in a lamp since around 1975...
 
Can LED lights generally be dimmed? I've gotta coupla ornamental lights outside my garage that come on whether I want 'em to or not when it gets dark. I can either leave 'em burned out, or replace them with something efficient.

If I want REAL light, I fire up the big halogen...
 

[K Frame]

"BTW, grounding is not a solution to power quality problems, and in fact has nothing to do with it at all."

Note that I said power supply OR grounding. Two separate issues.

While it's unlikely, a grounding issue could possibly cause problems with the electronics in these bulbs.

What possible grounding issue could cause a CFL to fail?

A bad ground won't let the electron demons escape. When they build up, they get together and cast evil incantations designed to bring darkness into the universe.

Since their universe is the CFL, they get their wish.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I hate CFLs.  They're all hype and no substance.  Their light is harsh and thin, they cost too much and don't save a meaningful amount of money on your electric bill, they're actually worse for the environment than incandescents...

The thought of being forced by government to use them is abhorrent.

[K Frame]

"Their light is harsh and thin,"

A common complaint with fluorescent bulbs of years past, and one that is addressed by choosing the correct color spectrum for the task at hand.

"don't save a meaningful amount of money on your electric bill"

I disagree immensely. It takes time for the savings to be realized, though, and most people are far too impatient to recognize that.


"They cost too much"

Yes, they're more expensive than incandescents, but the price has dropped markedly over the past decade or so. As more people continue to use them, the price will drop even more.

As with the money savings, it's an incidental, subjective thing that it's hard for people to see. It's rough to shell out as much as $7 or more dollars at one clip for a light bulb, but a LOT easier to shell out $1.95 for a box of 4 incandescents. Then another $1.95 for the next four, then $2.35 for the four after that because the price has gone up...


"they're actually worse for the environment than incandescents"

Yeah, well, that's the inconvenient truth. 

[Bogie]

The way I figure it...

My kitchen's ceiling fixture holds four bulbs.
 
$2 replacement cost, with incandescents...

HOWEVER...

I figure that eventually I'm gonna fall off the damn ladder.
 
$15 for four CF bulbs at Home Depot is considerably less than my $50 emergency room copay.
 

[Gewehr98]

I hate CFLs.  They're all hype and no substance.  Their light is harsh and thin, they cost too much and don't save a meaningful amount of money on your electric bill, they're actually worse for the environment than incandescents...

Says you.

Want to see the fictional change in my electric bill before and after switching over to CFLs?  Want to see the non-meaningful amount of money in my savings account from that lower utility bill? You might have extra money coming out of your posterior orifice, but I don't. 

CFLs also generate less heat than incandescents, and the ones in my living spaces are all selected for warm color temperatures. They do offer that selection these days, you know. I even have a warm white 3-way CFL bulb for one of my big living room fixtures.

The ones in the vaulted ceiling of my kitchen have yet to need changing, I understand they've been there for about 5 years so far.  That's great, because I hate changing those particular bulbs out.

4 milligrams of mercury per CFL fixture.  Wow.  How many milligrams of mercury in that can of tuna you ate earlier?  As if county and city municipalities don't already have programs in place to properly dispose of your used fluorescent tubes, car batteries, antifreeze, engine oil, ex-wives, refrigerators, appliances, paint, tires, etc.  The last three communities I lived in had those services.  Maybe Podunk doesn't yet, but it will, trust me - landfill space is a finite resource.  We even have a swap board to keep stuff out of the landfill and recycle it for good use:

www.madisonstuffexchange.com

Mandating a ban on incandescents is not a Good Thing, that I agree.  Folks with more money than brains will want to fan themselves with their kilowatt meters 'till the cows come home, and that's entirely their prerogative.  I keep a few incandescents in certain locations because it gets down to -20 or worse here in the winter, so the garage, front porch, and back deck lights stay with the old convert power to heat and light via glowing filament route.  But I am quite happy with my savings in heat, longevity, and power consumption.  Unless you're calling Mike, Bogie, myself, and others liars...

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I've run the math.  Burning incandescents turns my electric meter to the tune of about $3.02 per month.  "Equivalent" (yeah right...) CFLs would burn $0.80 per month. 

Replacing the bulbs in my home would cost me roughly $130.  I'll have to suffer these miserable CFL bulbs for 5 years before I even break even.  It is soooo not worth it.

I'll pamper myself and spend the extra two bucks a month for real light bulbs.  Call me gluttonous if you want.

[Marnoot]

I've run the math.  Burning incandescents turns my electric meter to the tune of about $3.02 per month.  Equivalent CFLs would burn $0.80 per month. 

Replacing the bulbs in my home would cost me roughly $130.  I'll have to suffer these miserable CFL bulbs for 5 years before I even break even.  It is soooo not worth it.

I'll pamper myself and spend the extra two bucks a month for real light bulbs.  Call me gluttonous if you want.

I'm currently indifferent to using one or the other, but I'm curious whether you included the more-frequent-replacement cost of incandescents in your break-even calculation?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Oops, you're right, I did forget that.

So, umm...  <grabs calculator>  ...looks like it'll only take me 4 years to break even, not 5. 

Still not worth it.  Not even close.

[Bogie]

Or how much it's gonna cost when I fall off the ladder and land on you? I figure not having to screw with the dang things is worth a pretty fair amount to me. I buy the "extended life" mondo-super-indestructible bulbs for my dang outside garage lights, and I end up having to replace them at least once a year. Which involves killing spiders, taking fixtures apart, etc...

Not pretty. Not pretty at all...
 
Frankly, I can't tell the difference between a _quality_ CF bulb's light, and a _quality_ incandescent light.
 
BTW, just put in a four-T8 6500 fixture in my basement office, and I think I may have to tone it down a little... I think it's gonna go in the laundry room, and get replaced by a two-tuber...
 

[onions!]

Maybe I'm just odd?

I put CFLs in my kitchen,bath,& living room because they were on sale & I wanted to see what the fuss was about.

The only filament bulbs I've replaced in,say,the last 8-9 years are those stupid candle flame shaped things in the dining room chandelier.Oh yeah,& in the drop light.>shrug<

I like the bright,yellow tinged glow that five 13w bulbs puts out.Easy to shave by.

[Bogie]

Just had a thought... $130 worth of bulbs?

Sam's sells decent 60 watt eq bulbs for about $15 for an 8-pack.

Just how many light bulbs do you have in your house?

Let's see...
 
my upstairs office: 2
Housepest room: 6 (which are never used... 5 of them belong to ugly lamps I have not thrown out, and one in the ceiling)
Bedroom: 5 (three in the ceiling fixture, two lamps)
Master Bath: 3
Housepest Bath: 4
Kitchen: 6 (and a 4' tuber I put over the sink)
Living room: 6 (4 in the ceiling fan, two lamps)
Stairs downstairs 1 (incandescent on a dim circuit)
Downstairs bath: 4 (1 incandescent on a dim circuit)
Laundry: 2
Hallway, storage, panel room: 3
Bad Teenager Room: 3 (all in the ceiling)
Bunker: 4 CF in ceiling, 4 tuber above my desk, 2 lamps on desk and bookshelves, 2 flanking movie screen, 2 on bar
Garage: 2 CFLs, 5 track lights with CFLs, and two 2 tuber shoplights
Outside: 1 in porch light, 2 HD inc bulbs in garage lights, 2 inc floods in the back yard

So, let's add it up - I think I've got in the area of 60ish...
 
So, yeah, you're about right on the cost. But then again, I didn't really do it all at once either.

I think I've had a couple croak on me in the past four years (and most of my lamps, and some "bare" bulbs came from my old apartment - I replaced them with el-cheapos when I moved out), so some of these things do have some time on 'em...

So, let's say that I was running incandescents, and they last an average of a year each... I'd be buying 15 4-packs a year. At $2 each, that's $30/year.
 
Over four years, that's $120.

Merely on replacement alone, I think I'm ahead, just for the "avoidance of hassle" factor.
 

[Sindawe]

As if county and city municipalities don't already have programs in place to properly dispose of your used fluorescent tubes, car batteries, antifreeze, engine oil, ex-wives, refrigerators, appliances, paint, tires, etc.

Hey Gewehr98, if I send my ex-wife in your direction, could you dispose of her for me?

The four CF bulbs I've put in the main bath and downstairs powder room are great.  Since they take a few minutes to come to full brightness, I no longer get a nuclear blast of light in they eyes when I use the head before dawn.

The only place I have incandescents left are those lights on dimmers (dinning room chandelier and spot light over the upstairs landing).  All else are CF and it has cut my electricity use a fair bit.

[Firethorn]

While it's unlikely, a grounding issue could possibly cause problems with the electronics in these bulbs.

I figured you might be talking about the building ground, which indeed can have quite an effect on the power quality in the building, especially if the circuits aren't particularly balanced as far as load goes.

I doubt there is anything wrong with my power. I never had any issues with normal bulbs and I have fixtures with multiple bulbs in them where one bulb has been there for 4 or 5 years and another failed in a few days.

Your power could still be quite 'dirty', as long as the average voltage stays in the correct range or below a standard lightbulb won't care.  It's a simple resistance device, after all.  It'd be perfectly happy with 110V of DC.

On the other hand, a CFL(or tube flouro) has electronics to include a transformer designed to step up the voltage and frequency*.  Dirty power, especially combined with cheap electronics can result in quick failure.  That's why I asked about things with motors.   Computer power supplies, especially auto-voltage ones that come with things like laptops are actually very resistant to power fluctuations, even though they have some of the same electronics as a CFL(they also step up the frequency).  It has to do with the capaciters, rectifiers and regulators in a good power supply.

*high frequency makes stepping up the voltage easier and also has the effect of eliminating/reducing flicker.  Some people can see 60HZ flicker, nobody can see 6khz flicker.

[K Frame]

"That's in a smallish apartment without A/C and with heating paid for by the landlord.

Most peoples' utility bills would be similar to mine if they weren't paying for heating and A/C.  Take away the heating and cooling and there isn't much power usage left in the average home.  Trying to save money on the little stuff, like CFLs and suchlike, isn't going to be very productive.  I could leave on every light in my apartment 24/7, and it would only increase my monthly bill by some $25 a month.  Trying to save money on that is a waste of time, because there simply isn't much money there to be saved.  It's the heating and cooling that matter, not the lighting."

Hum...

You never mentioned the size of your apartment before, Headless.

Somehow I think that that might have a HUGE bearing on the savings you'll see.

Unlike you, I have a moderately sized home that had quite a few incandescent bulbs on three levels.

Living room, dining room, two rooms in the basement, kitchen, front and back entrances, master bedroom, two and 1/2 baths, den, spare bedroom...

All had incandescent bulbs. Almost all have been slowly replaced with CFLs.

My electric bill has gone down by about 15% a month over the past several years.

That's nothing to sneeze at.

[HankB]

Most of the cheaper compact fluorescent bulbs being hyped - or even given away - are 15 watts, equivalent to a 60 watt incadescent.

60 watt incadescents aren't very bright, and the cheap fluorescent replacements do have some serious color rendering issues. Maybe that's not an issue for something like a hallway light, but for reading, or for a lady applying makeup, they're not so good. Bulbs with higher output, better color rendering, and dimming capability are are available, but carry a higher price tag, which  changes the economics considerably.

My front yard light (on a photocell) is a compact fluorescent - it cost considerably more than today's overhyped cheapies, but it lasts around 3 - 3 1/2 years.

So while there is a place for them, it's not in every place.

[K Frame]

"but carry a higher price tag, which  changes the economics considerably."


Actually, I contend that it largely doesn't. Yes, the better bulbs are more expensive. But as we've seen indicated here, they tend to last FAR longer than the cheapies.

Several years ago I spearheaded putting CFL floodlights into my community for pathway lighting. We have a number of walkways where post lamps were simply too expensive an option, and prone to vandalism, so we attached floodlight heads to the houses.

We at first used incandescent bulbs, but we were always running up and down the ladders to replace them. It wasn't uncommon to have to replace half of the bulbs (we had, at the time, 10 I believe) every 4 to 6 months. I finally managed to convince everyone that simply from a maintenance stand point it would be FAR wiser to get the CFL floodlight heads (at something like $30 a pop) than to either keep replacing the stupid bulbs ourselves or hiring our electrican to do a complete bulb change out every 6 months (at nearly $150) and live with the bulbs that would burn out in the interim.

That was almost 7 years ago. At least two of the bulbs are still the original ones, and are working just fine. All of the others have been replaced, most only once, a couple twice.

Buy quality and you'll get good results and long life, which dramatically affects the cost analysis.

If someone insists on buying cheap CFLs stamped "Made at the People's Slave Labor Factory No. 927, Bejing" and sold under the Lighty McBright Light brand name, then they're going to be sorely disappointed.

But that's disappointment without merit.

[Manedwolf]

"That's in a smallish apartment without A/C and with heating paid for by the landlord.

Most peoples' utility bills would be similar to mine if they weren't paying for heating and A/C.  Take away the heating and cooling and there isn't much power usage left in the average home. 

Unless they have a plasma TV they leave on a lot. Unlike LCDs, those things devour electricity, up to three times as much as a tube TV, even.

The biggest power suck I've seen in reports, though, is hideously inefficient window A/C units. A good, efficient central A/C will actually use far less power than several window units in different rooms, since it's only powering one compressor, one fan, and has a far more efficient and bigger evaporator coil array.

[Bogie]

Well, I just bought a pair of LED lights... We'll see about those...
 

[Manedwolf]

They're apparently going to come out with some LEDs that have a new phosphor coating that gives a warmer, yellowish light as opposed to the pale, cold high-color-temp white that they have now.