Author Topic: More government stupidity  (Read 1656 times)

Paddy

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More government stupidity
« on: July 25, 2007, 05:34:33 AM »
What's next, mass graves?  angry

July 25, 2007
On Base, a Plea to Give Each Death Its Due
By WILLIAM YARDLEY

FORT LEWIS, Wash.  Twenty soldiers deployed to Iraq from this Army base were killed in May, a monthly high. That same month, the base announced a change in how it would honor its dead: instead of units holding services after each death, they would be held collectively once a month.

The anger and hurt were immediate. Soldiers families and veterans protested the change as cold and logistics-driven. Critics online said the military was trying to repress bad news about deaths. By mid-June, the base had delayed the plan.

[Its commander, Lt. Gen. Charles H. Jacoby, was expected to decide Wednesday whether to go through with it.]

If I lost my husband at the beginning of the month, what do you do, wait until the end of the month? asked Toni Shanyfelt, who said her husband was serving one of multiple tours in Iraq. I dont know if its more convenient for them, or what, but thats insane.

Military historians and scholars say the proposal and its fallout highlight the tender questions facing the armed forces as casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan mount, and some soldiers and their families come to expect more from military bases than in past conflicts.

During Vietnam and Korea, the historians say, many bases were places for training soldiers and shipping them out, rarely to see them return, with memorial services uncommon. Now, in the age of the all-volunteer force, the base has become the center of community. The Army and other branches have fostered the idea that military service is as much about education, job training and belonging to a community as national defense.

It wasnt considered the Armys business in any of the other wars to conduct these services, said Alan H. Archambault, director of the Fort Lewis Military Museum, which is supported by the Army. It was the hometowns of the soldiers that died that had these. Now I think the Army bases are trying to be the hometowns.

Army officials said the idea to hold monthly services reflected a need to find balance between honoring the dead and the practical reality that the services take time to plan, including things like coordinating rifle salutes and arranging receptions for family members who attend.

As much as we would like to think otherwise, I am afraid that with the number of soldiers we now have in harms way, our losses will preclude us from continuing to do individual memorial ceremonies, Brig. Gen. William Troy, who was the interim commander at Fort Lewis at the time, wrote in an e-mail message announcing the policy in May.

The Army also emphasizes that the ceremonies held on bases are in addition to those held by the soldiers unit overseas as well as private family services, which usually include military honor guards. Those services would not be affected if Fort Lewis moved to a monthly schedule.

Fort Lewis, the third-largest Army base in the nation, has about 10,000 of its 28,000 soldiers deployed overseas, a majority of them in Stryker brigades trained specially for urban combat. Several other major bases, including Fort Hood in Texas, the largest, already hold services monthly. Some hold them even less frequently.

There is no Army-wide policy to have any memorial services, a spokeswoman for the Army, Maj. Cheryl Phillips, said in an e-mail message. Commanders make the call. Several installations have conducted services for each individual soldier and now have begun to roll them into a quarterly service because, alas, the casualty numbers are rising.

At many bases, local elected officials attend the services. At Fort Hood, whose First Cavalry Division has 19,000 soldiers overseas, many of these officials are veterans with ties to the base or the Army.

It really is important that we keep it scheduled and that these people all have it on their calendars, said Diane Battaglia, a spokeswoman for Fort Hood.

Ms. Battaglia said the monthly services helped bring families together, a point also made by General Troy at Fort Lewis.

I see this as a way of sharing the heavy burdens our spouses and rear detachments bear, while giving our fallen warriors the respect they deserve, General Troy wrote in the e-mail message. It will also give the families of the fallen the opportunity to bond with one another, as they see others who share their grief.

Ms. Battaglia said the Fort Hood soldiers received individual eulogies at the monthly services. It has worked phenomenally well, she said.

At Fort Lewis, however, tension has been evident; changing a ritual, especially as the death toll is rising, strikes some as disrespectful.

By reducing it to once a month, I think theyre taking away from us, said Staff Sgt. Jason Angelle. Soldiers deserve individual honors.

Sue Rothwell, who runs a diner popular among soldiers that is just outside the main gate, said she had long opposed the war in Iraq but had recently made a public point of honoring those who serve in it. Several weeks ago she started putting the last names of soldiers who had died on the reader board outside the restaurant, called Galloping Gerties, under the heading, The numbers have names.

Ms. Rothwell said she opposed monthly services. Individuals gave their lives, she said. But if you have services just once a month, the other 29 days you dont have to think about it. Well, isnt that convenient.

For now, at least, those who die are eulogized as hometown heroes, either individually or by division.

We owe them the highest gratitude a nation can give, Lt. Col. John Pettit, a chaplain, said at a memorial service in July for two soldiers. Sgt. Joel A. Dahl and Cpl. Victor A. Garcia were killed by small-arms fire in Iraq.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/25/us/25funeral.html?ei=5065&en=96fc36a0f3f392ea&ex=1186027200&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

K Frame

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2007, 05:38:28 AM »
Gotta agree. That's a pretty stupid, reprehensible way to approach something like this.

"Now I think the Army bases are trying to be the hometowns."

TRYING to be?

Holy crap, most military bases ARE hometowns anymore.
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tyme

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2007, 07:55:07 PM »
Quote
It wasnt considered the Armys business in any of the other wars to conduct these services, said Alan H. Archambault,

Quote
Army officials said the idea to hold monthly services reflected a need to find balance between honoring the dead and the practical reality that the services take time to plan, including things like coordinating rifle salutes and arranging receptions for family members who attend.

Quote
Several other major bases, including Fort Hood in Texas, the largest, already hold services monthly. Some hold them even less frequently.

Quote
There is no Army-wide policy to have any memorial services, a spokeswoman for the Army, Maj. Cheryl Phillips, said in an e-mail message. Commanders make the call.

It seems to me that Fort Lewis and several other bases screwed up by offering individual services in the first place.  Once a service is provided by the government (even the military, even for soldiers lost in battle), it becomes an entitlement, and people are understandably upset if it's taken away.  If family members are part of the base community and want an on-base service in lieu of an off-base service, I would hope and expect that they could request a time and place for it, and arrange the other logistics themselves.  However, expecting the military to handle all logistics for individual on-base services during times of high(er) casualties seems unreasonable to me.

Quote
By reducing it to once a month, I think theyre taking away from us, said Staff Sgt. Jason Angelle. Soldiers deserve individual honors.
So soldiers today deserve individual services, at separate ceremonies coordinated by their bases, even though soldiers who died in past wars didn't?  What makes soldiers today more special than soldiers of past conflicts?  Or is the sentiment that all sodiers in past wars should have had individual on-base ceremonies, too?  It's a little late for that, isn't it?

I'll agree that whatever format the services take, they need to be respectful of fading soldiers.  I just don't think respect demands one service per soldier.

Quote
Ms. Rothwell said she opposed monthly services. Individuals gave their lives, she said. But if you have services just once a month, the other 29 days you dont have to think about it. Well, isnt that convenient.
This has to be the worst criticism of the bunch.  Anyone who doesn't go to the service doesn't have to think about it.  Anyone who would go a service will likely be thinking about it every day, and most hours, for quite a while.  You cannot force someone to mourn.  Reasonable people do mourn, and they do it whether or not there are services offered by the military.


So, what do you two (and I'm sure many more here) see as the central problem with this new policy?  Is it that every fallen soldier must be given an individual service, or that 1 month is too long to wait?  Would it be less objectionable if the policy was to have services as needed, but no more than one per week?  Or what about one service per battle/incident?
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Gewehr98

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2007, 09:16:53 PM »
I don't like it - and it wasn't just Fort Lewis, nor was the individual funeral service something recently hatched up.

During my military tenure, which understandably goes back only 20 some years to 1986, we held individual services for casualties at the several bases I was stationed at, as well as many I was on temporary assignment to.  It was by all means proper, and a fitting personal tribute to the fallen.  Those who have not served in the military probably don't understand it, but it offers closure to the bereaved family and the deceased's comrades, in an individual, personal manner that simply cannot be usurped by a monthly shindig. An on-base community is in fact a family, whether some on the outside just don't see it or cannot believe such kinship could exist. Regardless, we're not in a WWII-sized conflict, or even a Vietnam-sized scuffle, not by a long shot.  If and when we get into that kind of shooting match, then I'd perhaps understand the need to economize on the chaplain's availability and the cost of planting the deceased.

So, what's next, filling up a trench somewhere once a month? Ship the carcasses off to the Navy, so they can do a mass burial at sea? That should save a few taxpayer dollars, and feed the fish at the same time...

If the DoD doesn't want to ante up, fine.  We vets could take up a collection to pay for the honors. I'd throw in a good chunk of my pension check. That, or let the VA, VFW, or AFL take care of the funeral ceremony.  They've already been taking over that aspect at more and more graveside ceremonies as the DoD downsizes their active, guard, and reserve honor guard flight committments.  I even watched one ceremony where the electronic bugle crapped out during Taps, and the bugler didn't have spare batteries. Had I remembered the lyrics to Taps, I would've sung them at that moment.  I'm still pissed that I didn't.   

Yeah, I'm a stickler for such things.  During Desert Storm, I hopped on a C-141 flight from Europe to Dover, with a cargo bay full of people - people in shiny aluminum boxes.  I treated every one of them with the respect and dignity they deserved, and on landing, I stuck around to help the loadmasters offload their precious cargo.  Each one got as much individual attention as I could muster. They weren't just containers full of unprocessed Soylent Green, ya know...  angry
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HankB

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 03:53:57 AM »
It's probably not the cost so much as it is the horrendus added burden of paperwork that some Pentagon seat warmer has to deal with . . . it's so unfair that he has to fill out another form 457/3-f Revision 17/6 when the work he's doing - like arranging for the base's lawns to be mowed - is so important . . .
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Sindawe

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 03:58:16 AM »
Quote
Those who have not served in the military probably don't understand it, but it offers closure to the bereaved family and the deceased's comrades, in an individual, personal manner that simply cannot be usurped by a monthly shindig.

I've not served, but having lost friends and family I understand completely.

If our government will no longer honor those who've given their lives in its service, how long will it be until those who serve refuse to risk their lives for our government?

This is BAD policy, very bad.  angry
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Firethorn

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 10:50:16 AM »
On the one hand - I can see being upset.

On the other hand, consider the logistics - they lost 20 soldiers in the last month, per the article.  We're talking about a service pretty much every workday in that case.  Let's say this takes an hour.  That's 20 hours a month, or nearly half a workweek per month.

Yes, mourning needs to happen.  But can they afford it?  Perhaps a weekly service would have been better.  But life has to go on.

Gewehr98

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 11:21:03 AM »
I can pretty much write the script for how this played out.

The new fiscal year is approaching come 1 October. 

The installation commander is pressured by his comptroller and the money folks in the Puzzle Palace to cut his O&M budget, because the ops tempo in Jihadistan isn't going to throttle back one iota - something else has to give.

So he calls his Plans & Programs folks together for a meeting, they kill IMPAC Card purchases for the rest of the fiscal year, and work diligently on this round of Budget Drills. This maneuvering usually starts in June or July, every year.

Mortuary Services offers up a sacrificial lamb of sorts, stating they *could* go to once-monthly funeral services.  Both the Mortuary Services OIC and the installation commander are of the opinion that nobody in their right mind would do something like that, so they think they're fairly safe in moving that particular program to the Unfunded Requirements side of the stack - it'll get funded as the folks in the Pentagon realize they're cutting too close to the bone and kill something else for FY 2008. 

But it comes back as Unfunded, because they need to up-armor several hundred more Humvees, which did make the cut.  Hilarity ensues.

As for the military family's sense of entitlement, I'll be the first to state that the military is wonderful for working through adversity and hardship.  But some things you just don't F@*k with, particularly when it comes to our fallen troops.

I wouldn't ask the families of our civilian counterparts to keep the deceased on ice until the monthly gathering accrued enough participants.  Until we get into a serious global conflict, with hundreds of casualties each day (WWII killed 221 per day, Vietnam 18 per day), I wouldn't ask that of the military families, either. 

Shorten the gate and clinic/pharmacy hours, turn off midnight chow, but don't mess with the proprieties of honoring those who made the ultimate sacrifice.
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Paddy

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 11:30:31 AM »
Quote
Yes, mourning needs to happen.  But can they afford it? 
I dunno, could those young men and  women afford to lose their lives?   If they are truly the 'defenders of our freedom', as this government claims, shouldn't they be held in the highest regard?  Or are they, as some allege, just cannon fodder? Notwithstanding, does a funeral really cost all that much?

ilbob

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 01:25:55 PM »
Who knows where this stuff comes from. What probably sounded like a good idea to the guy that thought it up and got it approved, sounded callous to others.

IMO, every congressman should make a point of sending a personal letter to the families of each military person killed in action from their district, to remind them that these people are not pawns to be used as a bludgeon for some dubious political gain, but real people that died, at least in part, from decisions they made. Maybe it would make them think a little about those decisions.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2007, 04:10:46 PM »
Quote
As much as we would like to think otherwise, I am afraid that with the number of soldiers we now have in harms way, our losses will preclude us from continuing to do individual memorial ceremonies, Brig. Gen. William Troy, who was the interim commander at Fort Lewis at the time, wrote in an e-mail message announcing the policy in May.

Time out!

I thought things were getting better in Iraq and that our casualties were supposed to be going down? IF that were true, then it would appear there is little reason to be instituting this policy now.

Of course, I stopped believing anything the Army told me back when I was in the Army.
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RevDisk

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2007, 03:59:34 PM »
Time out!

I thought things were getting better in Iraq and that our casualties were supposed to be going down? IF that were true, then it would appear there is little reason to be instituting this policy now.

Of course, I stopped believing anything the Army told me back when I was in the Army.

Eh, the fatality rate has been dropped a bit in the short term.   Averaged over a longer time frame, not really.  The total casuality rate, specifically of soldiers wounded beyond the capacity to return to duty, is the number you really need to worry about at the moment.  The news only covers deathes, it does not ever include the number of soldiers who had to be medically discharged.


A recent thing I saw before I got out was college funding amusement.  You paid $1200 (twelve installments of $100) for your Montgomery GI Bill benefits.  Then the Army says they're out of money, so you can't get those benefits.  Allegedly this has been fixed.  A much more common issue is getting the check cut before the date at which your college requires tutition to be paid.  Some colleges are helpful, others say pay up or leave. 

Sigh. 

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Sindawe

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2007, 05:27:47 AM »
Meanwhile, Congress is eyeing ANOTHER pay raise by not voting the automatic increase.  angry

Quote
WASHINGTON -- After raising the minimum wage by 70 cents an hour last week, many members of Congress are ready to give themselves a pay increase of roughly $4,400 per year.

That would take their annual salaries to nearly $170,000.

Campaigning last year, Democratic leaders said it would be wrong for Congress to accept a pay increase until it raised the minimum wage. That happened on Tuesday, when the minimum wage rose from $5.15 to $5.85 per hour; it will reach $7.25 an hour on July 24, 2009.

Cost-of-living increases are automatic for members of Congress unless they're voted down. The House of Representatives already has cleared the way for such a raise in 2008, but a bipartisan coalition is out to block it, with critics saying the money could be better spent during a time of war and high deficits.

''This is the people's money, and we need to use it on their priorities,'' said Republican Rep. Sam Graves of Missouri, who is co-sponsoring a bill to prevent the raise. ``Increasing the pay of members of Congress is not their priority.''

Continues at: http://www.miamiherald.com/509/story/186647.html
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Len Budney

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2007, 02:54:30 AM »
Quote
That same month, the base announced a change in how it would honor its dead: instead of units holding services after each death, they would be held collectively once a month.
The first thing that reminded me of was my first job out of grad school: the company was slowly bleeding to death, and people were quitting by ones and twos, and then by threes and fives... At first, they'd have a sendoff party with a cake for the person leaving. Then they started having a "group sendoff" on Fridays for everyone who had quit that week. When I left, I can't remember if there was any sendoff at all.

My buddy was still there when they folded. They gathered everyone in the conference room for the announcement. They didn't have a cake, but my buddy thought it would've been a nice touch.

"Hey, who's the cake for?"

"Why, it's for all of you!"

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Tallpine

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Re: More government stupidity
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2007, 06:48:58 AM »
Isn't "government stupidity" sort of like "Department of Redundancy Department" Huh?
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