Author Topic: Chinese Made 1897 Shotgun? (Read 16625 times)

Nick1911 · « **on:** July 25, 2007, 07:00:14 PM »

I thought there was a law passed in the 80's that made importing these illegal?

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=721

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2007, 07:15:32 PM »

Nope. I just bought a Chinese copy of the Winchester Model 97 trench gun.

Only certain makes and models of Chinese firearms were banned by Executive Order, to include the Norinco/Polytech AKs and M14SA, the Norinco NDM-86 Dragunov clone, and the Norinco 1911A1. I'm glad I managed to get 4 of the 1911A1s while I could. I would've loved to have had a Polytech Legend AK, but I settled for a Bulgarian SLR-95 instead.

The Chinese shotguns are still quite legal to import, and there was a recent Gun Test Magazine write-up comparing the Chinese Model 97 copy to an original Winchester Model 97. The Chinese (reverse-engineered) copy was considered the better gun.

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/14_2/features/4990-1.html

K Frame · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:35:11 PM »

Better gun?

The statement I'm reading says that the Chicom 1897 is the better gun for Cowboy Action Shooters.

Two very different meanings.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2007, 08:48:33 PM »

I dabbled in SASS for a while. Players were stepping all over each others for whatever rusted relic of an original 97 they could find, and the smarter ones threw even more cash at gunsmiths to make them work safely after a bazillion years of shucking rounds with that single action bar, brazed together or otherwise.

Yeah, I'll throw my hat in there and state that a brand new Norinco 97 will more than likely be a better gun than an existing Winchester 97, assuming the latter didn't just arrive in the here and now via the Time Tunnel.

I could be considered a discriminating gun owner, but comparing my dad's original Winchester 97 to my new Norinco 97, I'm very much impressed with how good a job the Chinese did, right down to using good old American walnut (Probably shipped there via container ship from Long Beach, along with all the other raw materials we export).

Of course, the gun store down the street has a replica Winchester 1887 12-gauge lever gun, that's my next acquisition.

Strings · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2007, 10:56:54 PM »

I have an original '87 that I was using for SASS when I was involved. If I ever get the time/money to get involved again, I'll be using her again. However...

I would LOVE to get one of the replica '87s, and mod it for trap. 'Course, I'd like to do the same with one of the Martini/Greener shotguns that came in a couple years ago...

roo_ster · « **Reply #5 on:** July 26, 2007, 02:42:49 AM »

Am I the only one who thinks one of those 97 trench guns--with bayonet--would be just dandy for a HD shotgun?

Moondoggie · « **Reply #6 on:** July 26, 2007, 02:44:40 AM »

I've looked at several 97's locally on estate sales...no thanks.

I bought a Norinco about 6 months ago for about the same money that the local auctions were bringing.

First round, the bead went missing but otherwise seems to be fine. 7 rds of 12 ga in a pretty small pkg = good home defense gun.

You do have to work the action rather briskly for it to function properly. Takes about twice the force of my 870.

I also have a Ploytech M-1A, and a Norinco Pre-ban SKS. Gave $59 for the SKS new in a group buy from my squadron's FFL...that was a deal I'll never regret.

El Tejon · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2007, 05:00:38 AM »

80s? Heck no, we were buying AKs at $275 a pop then. cool

ATF was freaking out throughout the Clinton years over CKCs. They started to agitate to cut off the Chinese guns as the affordable Chinese weapons were arming too many Americans. The thought of boatloads of $60 CKCs gave ATF nightmares.

The Chinese gun ban done as trade sanction to the PLA, whose princelings ran their gun industry for slush fund money, applied only to certain "non-sporty" guns.

Nick1911 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2007, 05:44:51 AM »

What's a CKC?

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 26, 2007, 07:40:11 AM »

Quote

Am I the only one who thinks one of those 97 trench guns--with bayonet--would be just dandy for a HD shotgun?

I dunno why not.

I use a USMC Model 870Mk1 as my bedside HD shotgun. The bayonet's in the nightstand drawer, though, it doesn't stow well on the gun.

K Frame · « **Reply #10 on:** July 26, 2007, 07:46:36 AM »

Quote from: jfruser on July 26, 2007, 01:42:49 AM

Am I the only one who thinks one of those 97 trench guns--with bayonet--would be just dandy for a HD shotgun?

The shotgun? Sure, it would make a fine HD firearm.

WITH the bayonet?

What the hell are you going to do with that other than decrease your mobility significantly?

AJ Dual · « **Reply #11 on:** July 26, 2007, 07:48:46 AM »

The bayonet is the ultimate "Night sight", you just thrust it forward in the dark until you feel it stick into something soft. Often there is a grunt or scream that gives audible indication of target lock as well...

Then, pull the trigger. You won't miss.

Gewehr98 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 26, 2007, 08:02:59 AM »

Quote

What the hell are you going to do with that other than decrease your mobility significantly?

He's going to slice the pie during his house clearing maneuvers. grin

K Frame · « **Reply #13 on:** July 26, 2007, 08:05:35 AM »

Maybe roast some marshmallows, and cook a couple of weenies, too.

charby · « **Reply #14 on:** July 26, 2007, 08:06:49 AM »

Quote from: jfruser on July 26, 2007, 01:42:49 AM

Am I the only one who thinks one of those 97 trench guns--with bayonet--would be just dandy for a HD shotgun?

I used to hunt with my grandfathers 97 Winchester when I younger, I used to be scared of that hammer catching and falling while carrying it and I couldn't cock and draw it up fast enough for wild flushing pheasants and quail (they were all wild flushers back then because I didn't have a dog)

I think a hammer-less shotgun is a much more ideal home defense shotgun.

roo_ster · « **Reply #15 on:** July 26, 2007, 11:24:02 AM »

For some reason, I like the idea of a bayonet. Too many showings of "Zulu" and "Last Full Measure," I suppose.

I also enjoyed (in an odd sort of way) the bayonet course in basic, as well as the pugil sticks.

"No ammo? No problem. Mr. Pointy will cut to the heart of the matter..."

The hammer would be a plus in my book, as my wife is a lefty familiar with her Mod 92 carbine.

But, yeah, the bayonet might not be best for storing away a cruiser-ready pump gun.

Boomhauer · « **Reply #16 on:** July 26, 2007, 11:30:02 AM »

Quote

For some reason, I like the idea of a bayonet. Too many showings of "Zulu" and "Last Full Measure," I suppose.

I also enjoyed (in an odd sort of way) the bayonet course in basic, as well as the pugil sticks.

"No ammo? No problem. Mr. Pointy will cut to the heart of the matter..."

I do love the bayo on my Mosin. Real cool.

K Frame · « **Reply #17 on:** July 26, 2007, 11:41:14 AM »

And what have we all said before about the "realism" of movies?

roo_ster · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2007, 06:20:08 PM »

True...but it wasn't Hollywood magic that was hollering "Blood! Blood! The Enemy's Blood!" with a *expletive deleted*it-eating grin on his face and a rifle & bayo in hands while getting paid to do so at Ft Benning back in the 1990's.

Cold blued steel & hot lead goes together like peas & carrots.

K Frame · « **Reply #19 on:** July 26, 2007, 06:26:12 PM »

Quote from: jfruser on July 26, 2007, 05:20:08 PM

True...but it wasn't Hollywood magic that was hollering "Blood! Blood! The Enemy's Blood!" with a *expletive deleted*it-eating grin on his face and a rifle & bayo in hands while getting paid to do so at Ft Benning back in the 1990's.

Cold blued steel & hot lead goes together like peas & carrots.

You know, I don't think I have EVER seen any film or photographs that show troops engaged in house clearing activities where they have bayonets fixed.

I simply can't see where it would be any kind of advantage, but I can see where it could be a HUGE drawback given the confined spaces of a building.

French G. · « **Reply #20 on:** July 26, 2007, 07:37:51 PM »

Dunno, I'm probably just anti-Chicom, but when I hold a Norinco I don't get the same feel of history as I do when I fondle my made in 1900 16ga 1897. It runs good too!

roo_ster · « **Reply #21 on:** July 27, 2007, 05:32:44 AM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin on July 26, 2007, 05:26:12 PM

Quote from: jfruser on July 26, 2007, 05:20:08 PM

True...but it wasn't Hollywood magic that was hollering "Blood! Blood! The Enemy's Blood!" with a *expletive deleted*it-eating grin on his face and a rifle & bayo in hands while getting paid to do so at Ft Benning back in the 1990's.

Cold blued steel & hot lead goes together like peas & carrots.

You know, I don't think I have EVER seen any film or photographs that show troops engaged in house clearing activities where they have bayonets fixed.

I simply can't see where it would be any kind of advantage, but I can see where it could be a HUGE drawback given the confined spaces of a building.

I reckon it would be an advantage/disadvantage somewhat similar to other CQB operations. After all, the shotgun configuration in question was designed for the trenches of WWI's Western front. IOW, for up close & personal fighting.

The 1897 is 1/4" shorter than the standard AR15 with a 20" bbl. Installing the M1917 bayonet adds on ~16" of blade beyond the muzzle. The length would be a drawback, but not in the usual long gun vs handgun debate WRT a HD weapon. It is unlikely an opponent would gain control of the weapon from the user, given that the first 16" of weapon length is bayonet.

It is probably not ideal. If I were to seriously consider a HD rifle/carbine with a bayonet, I would probably go with a SBS with a 14" bbl and one of the shorter bayonets, with a real butt stock. But the 1897 is attractive due to its price and lack of ATF shenanigans.

Also, the morale effect of folks on the pointy side of the bayonet is well documented. The Brits put it to good use in when ambushed in Iraq and assaults in the Falklands.

K Frame · « **Reply #22 on:** July 27, 2007, 06:18:03 AM »

Yes, the shotgun was designed for trench fighting. But, I seriously question if the bayonet was ever actively used during trench fighting; same with the bayonet on the rifle.

Trenches are a bit different, though, that most homes. While confined, they're far more linear than the average home.

I'm not saying that a bad guy could use the bayonet as a means of getting the gun away from the the wielder. I'm saying that it could make handling more difficult in close quarters, especially the WW I era blade bayonets.

roo_ster · « **Reply #23 on:** July 27, 2007, 06:50:51 AM »

No argument there. The bayonet on the SMLE was exceptionally LONG.

Manedwolf · « **Reply #24 on:** July 27, 2007, 06:58:19 AM »

Quote

I do love the bayo on my Mosin. Real cool.

But with a bayonet on a 91/30, you could poke someone that's robbing the house next to you while still inside your own home. grin

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Author Topic: Chinese Made 1897 Shotgun? (Read 16625 times)

Strings