Author Topic: A Logical Disconnect? (Read 5247 times)

Werewolf · « **on:** July 28, 2007, 09:04:23 AM »

I had a somewhat strange conversation with my 16 year old niece this afternoon while driving her to the mall. She isn't ant guni. In fact she's been shooting since she was 12 when I first taught her how. She cut her teeth on a Glock 22 and can shoot both single and double action revolvers. She shoot's 22's out of a bolt action rifle pretty good too but prefers handguns.

She's also a borderline Bible Thumper, fundamentalist christian type (important thing to know later on). She knows I carry - but it always amazes her for some reason when she sees/knows I am doing it.

This afternoon on the way to the mall she asked me if I'd "really shoot someone with my gun".

The conversation went something like this:

Me: Of course....
Her: You'd shoot someone just because they wanted your money or broke into your house?
Me: Of course...
Her: But they'd suffer.
Me: No they wouldn't - becasue they'd be probably be dead.
Her: I know that but that's not what I meant. They'd go to hell and suffer forever, Uncle Michael.
Me: So...
Her: You'd send someone to hell for wanting your stuff?
Me: They decided dyin' for a TV was worth the risk when they decided to break into my house. In Oklahoma the law says...

and on and on...

Here's the logical disconnect as I see it. She has no problem at all with making the person dead.

Her problem is that because they're a criminal they'll go to HELL and suffer forever the torments thereof!

Does anyone else besides me see the logical disconnect in that train of thought? How would you respond to it if you had the same conversation?

Manedwolf · « **Reply #1 on:** July 28, 2007, 09:34:22 AM »

Best said by Firefly, when Mal has to shoot a guy to stop him...

Tracey: ...you just murdered me.

Mal: No, son. You murdered yourself. I just carried the bullet a while.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #2 on:** July 28, 2007, 10:43:15 AM »

I don't see the logical problem, although she probably does need to think this through a bit more.

Headless Thompson Gunner · « **Reply #3 on:** July 28, 2007, 11:11:22 AM »

Sounds like a typical teenager trying to figure out the intricacies of life. Don't let it bother you.

Monkeyleg · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2007, 12:17:59 PM »

Just say, "the guy's a criminal. Don't you think he's going to hell whether I shoot him or not?"

Werewolf · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2007, 01:36:15 PM »

Quote from: Monkeyleg on July 28, 2007, 11:17:59 AM

Just say, "the guy's a criminal. Don't you think he's going to hell whether I shoot him or not?"

Good answer... I think I'll give that a try.

wmenorr67 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2007, 04:00:38 PM »

Monkeyleg beat me to it.

roo_ster · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2007, 06:43:56 PM »

The criminal is responsible for his actions, not any objects he might bump up against such as: high-velocity lead from a potential victim, bridge abutments, water under a bridge span...

If he commits his crime while cross-wise with God, that is his problem.

In a more general note, most teenagers are nitwits. It is not their fault. Truly, their brains are not finished developing and have some serious deficiencies compared to a physically matured adult. It is our job as adults to steer or cuff them on to the straight & narrow, despite their teenaged nitwittery.

Antibubba · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2007, 08:11:34 PM »

Quote

Here's the logical disconnect as I see it. She has no problem at all with making the person dead.

Her problem is that because they're a criminal they'll go to HELL and suffer forever the torments thereof!

Does anyone else besides me see the logical disconnect in that train of thought?

Is it a disconnect? Until fairly recently in the history of Christianity her disregard of the body and concern for the soul would have been the norm. And even some adult 'thumpers wouldn't see it, subtlety not being a trait often associated with fundamentalism of any flavor.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2007, 08:56:19 PM »

Quote from: Antibubba on July 28, 2007, 07:11:34 PM

Until fairly recently in the history of Christianity her disregard of the body and concern for the soul would have been the norm.

There's some truth to that.

Quote

And even some adult 'thumpers wouldn't see it, subtlety not being a trait often associated with ~~fundamentalism~~ humans of any flavor.

Fixed that for you. Fundamentalism is not mindlessness. In fact, it can encourage thought.

K Frame · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2007, 09:56:46 PM »

"You'd send someone to hell for wanting your stuff?"

OOOOOoohhhhhhh....

My response to that would have been...

No, if need be, I'd simply end his life.

HE would send HIMSELF to hell for his sins; I would have nothing to do with his going to heaven or hell.

Tallpine · « **Reply #11 on:** July 29, 2007, 06:53:39 AM »

What if the bad guy doesn't believe in hell Huh?

Or what if I don't? laugh

K Frame · « **Reply #12 on:** July 29, 2007, 08:04:04 AM »

That's OK.

Hell believes in YOU.

Tallpine · « **Reply #13 on:** July 29, 2007, 10:08:47 AM »

Yeah, right rolleyes

(sorry I don't play that game anymore)

Funny thing, back in the "First Century" even many of the Rabbis didn't believe in heaven/hell (remember the Sadduces vs Pharisees?).

lee n. field · « **Reply #14 on:** July 29, 2007, 03:57:16 PM »

Quote

Me: No they wouldn't - becasue they'd be probably be dead.
Her: I know that but that's not what I meant. They'd go to hell and suffer forever, Uncle Michael.

My shop/office-mate argues in much the same way. It's not an ignorant teenager thing -- he's 47.

Quote

Truly, their brains are not finished developing

Liberalism (as in "liberalism is a mental disorder" -- El Neil Smith, somewhere), in this guy's case.

Should the zombies come, I fully expect him to show up at my door desiring protection.

The Rabbi · « **Reply #15 on:** July 29, 2007, 04:46:29 PM »

Quote from: Tallpine on July 29, 2007, 09:08:47 AM

Yeah, right rolleyes

(sorry I don't play that game anymore)

Funny thing, back in the "First Century" even many of the Rabbis didn't believe in heaven/hell (remember the Sadduces vs Pharisees?).

and actually they still dont.

I would never tell someone I would shoot a person because he wanted my money, or I'd shoot him over a color TV.
I would shoot someone because he threatened my life, or the life of my family members.
Shooting someone over a TV is worthless.

As for the niece, ask whether its better you send him to hell or he send you to Heaven.

Stand_watie · « **Reply #16 on:** July 29, 2007, 05:38:41 PM »

Quote from: Tallpine on July 29, 2007, 09:08:47 AM

Yeah, right rolleyes

(sorry I don't play that game anymore)

Funny thing, back in the "First Century" even many of the Rabbis didn't believe in heaven/hell (remember the Sadduces vs Pharisees?).

Luke 20 references this belief, and Jesus' response to it.

Bigjake · « **Reply #17 on:** July 29, 2007, 05:56:47 PM »

Quote

they're a criminal they'll go to HELL and suffer forever the torments thereof!

you say this like its a bad thing.... some people need killin'

HankB · « **Reply #18 on:** July 30, 2007, 05:34:50 AM »

No human being has the power to condemn someone to hell for eternity.

That's exclusively up to the Almighty.

Tallpine · « **Reply #19 on:** July 30, 2007, 06:07:20 AM »

Quote

Luke 20 references this belief, and Jesus' response to it.

Yeah, I've actually read the NT, and the OT - more than once Wink

Strings · « **Reply #20 on:** July 30, 2007, 07:33:35 AM »

I think Rabbi nailed this one.

If the person was no threat, I'd simply stop him from stealing whatever: no need to kill. Of course, most criminals are going to have some way of trying to intimidate their victim, which then creates a threat against me and mine.

And, putting my own spin on TR's words: I have NO problems shooting someone who is a threat to me and mine. THEY made the choice to be a threat, so the repercussions are on their head...

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #21 on:** July 30, 2007, 12:19:42 PM »

See, I would solve this whole problem by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint, and giving him the gospel until he converts. Then I shoot him dead, he goes to heaven, I'm a double-hero (I defended myself and saved a sinner from Hell; sweet). Everybody wins, really.

Tallpine · « **Reply #22 on:** July 30, 2007, 12:21:51 PM »

Quote

See, I would solve this whole problem by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint, and giving him the gospel until he converts.

Death would be welcome after a few minutes of that laugh

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #23 on:** July 30, 2007, 12:23:01 PM »

tyme · « **Reply #24 on:** July 31, 2007, 11:23:49 AM »

Quote from: Mike Irwin

Hell believes in YOU.

But Soviet Russia doesn't.

What now?

News:

Author Topic: A Logical Disconnect? (Read 5247 times)

Strings