A Logical Disconnect?

[K Frame]

Hell also believes in the former Soviet Union, and what it's become.

Back to square one.

[LadySmith]

See, I would solve this whole problem by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint, and giving him the gospel until he converts.  Then I shoot him dead, he goes to heaven, I'm a double-hero (I defended myself and saved a sinner from Hell; sweet).  Everybody wins, really.   

There's something wrong with that, but I like it anyway. 

[Chris]

Try this logical argument, as she sounds like a bright girl.

Any criminal who gets shot and dies will go to Hell as a result of the way he/she chose to live.  God gave us all free will, and the criminal made choices using that free will.  While you and I chose to live good lives, this criminal chose to live a bad life, victimizing others.  If a bullet from my gun kills the person, I did not sit in judgment of the person's life.  God did.  And if God chose to send the criminal to Hell, that is God's will.  My role, to paraphrase the often used quote, was simply to arrange the meeting.  The same as if the criminal had drowned, overdosed on drugs, been hit by a car, or simply went to sleep only to have his/her heart stop somewhere in the night.  While I may be responsible for the death in this example, the eternal suffering as you call it is his/her consequence for a lifetime of sin.

Besides, which is the better outcome, that this criminal suffers for his sins, or that myself or some other person, or many other persons should suffer as a result of the criminal continuing to live and victimize others?

Good discussion with a young lady looking for answers in a world full of questions.

[Tallpine]

OTOH, maybe the burglar just accepted Jesus the day before, and he was in the process of turning his life around (just a few more break-ins, to steal something to put in the offering plate).  Then you would be sending him to heaven 

[Antibubba]

fistful opined:

See, I would solve this whole problem by holding the perpetrator at gunpoint, and giving him the gospel until he converts.  Then I shoot him dead, he goes to heaven, I'm a double-hero (I defended myself and saved a sinner from Hell; sweet).  Everybody wins, really. 

You would have made a fine Crusader.

[Perd Hapley]

Your point?

[zahc]

I've heard christian-types claim that they would not use lethal force in defense because they know that they are saved, whereas they are unsure of the salvation status of the offender, and thus it is better that they go to heaven because there is a chance that the offender could become saved before death.

I understand the logic there but it's not something I'm willing to go with.

[Strings]

I once had someone tell me that using lethal force to defend myself or another was "not Christian".

 They were totally lost when I pointed out that *I* am not Christian, either. Ruined their whole argument. Was reminded of that reading this: http://skippyslist.com/2007/07/31/sgt-generic-part-1/

[Mabs2]

It's not your fault the man wasn't saved.
And she doesn't know he's not.
He could somehow have worked out being a super Christian and stole your TV at the same time.

[Tallpine]

He could somehow have worked out being a super Christian and stole your TV at the same time.

"Once saved, always saved." 

Doesn't matter what you do after you've answered the altar call 

[Perd Hapley]

They were totally lost when I pointed out that *I* am not Christian, either. Ruined their whole argument. Was reminded of that reading this: http://skippyslist.com/2007/07/31/sgt-generic-part-1/

LOL

"Once saved, always saved."

Doesn't matter what you do after you've answered the altar call

Ole Tallpine's got his sin license.   

[Hawkmoon]

Does anyone else besides me see the logical disconnect in that train of thought? How would you respond to it if you had the same conversation?

Certainly I see the logical disconnect. The sin is in the mind of the sinner, the act is only a follow-up. A thief/robber/assailant is going to Hell (if you accept that construct) whenever he/she dies, so it doesn't really matter if you assisted in the departure or not. The destination is not open to question.

[Antibubba]

've heard christian-types claim that they would not use lethal force in defense because they know that they are saved, whereas they are unsure of the salvation status of the offender, and thus it is better that they go to heaven because there is a chance that the offender could become saved before death.

Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.  Therefore, if by killing him before he murders you, you can prevent him from committing the gravest sin.

Then you, the good Christian, can ask forgiveness, again, and go on your merry way.   

[Perd Hapley]

Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.   

It is? 

[roo_ster]

He could somehow have worked out being a super Christian and stole your TV at the same time.

"Once saved, always saved." 

Doesn't matter what you do after you've answered the altar call 

Not every denomination buys into that bit of theology.

[Antibubba]

Quote from: Antibubba on Today at 03:25:16 AM
Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.   

It is? 

I know it's been forgotten to most of the Xtian world, but part of asking forgiveness for one's sins is asking forgiveness of those you have sinned against.  Once you've murdered someone it's impossible to tell them you're sorry.

[Strings]

>Once you've murdered someone it's impossible to tell them you're sorry.<

Easy enough.

- Line up sights on target
- say "Sorry 'bout this"
- pull trigger

There... you'v ask forgiveness...

[Perd Hapley]

Quote from: Antibubba on Today at 03:25:16 AM
Ah, but the worst sin in G-d's eyes is murder.   

It is? 

I know it's been forgotten to most of the Xtian world, but part of asking forgiveness for one's sins is asking forgiveness of those you have sinned against.  Once you've murdered someone it's impossible to tell them you're sorry.

Are you saying this is the Christian point of view, or your point of view or both? 

The Bible speaks of "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" as being the unforgivable sin.