Gas prices - what can we do?

[Ukraine Train]

It's not like we can just boycot the oil industry but what if for say, one month at a time, a single gas station chain was boycotted. If they lose even 50% of their sales for a month that should send them a message, right? The problem, of course, is getting 300 million people to go along with the idea. It would take months of planning and advertising to ensure enough people participated, the national media would have to pick up the story for it to spread I think. Then there's also the problem that several different chains all get their oil from one supplier, ie. Amoco. So maybe several chains would have to be boycotted at once so that the supplier loses out also. Does this sound feasible or is this just a late night, exam week rambling?

[Guest]

The problem with boycotting one station is that ultimately you are just buying gas at another station. If the boycotted station eventually goes out of business, all of a sudden there is less competition for the stations that remain and gas prices go up even higher.

The problem is that there is a fixed demand for gas. The only way that people are going to need less gas is by doing all those touchy-feely conservation things like buying hybrids and carpooling. Obviously the price of gas hasnt gotten high enough for people to resort to such things enmass just yet.

[TarpleyG]

We have such a dependence on gas right now that I think even if it were $7 a gallon, we'd still be using all we could et our hands on.  The breaking point needs to be determined--at what price will it simply become unaffordable for me to use my car?  I know at $7, my truck and my wife's truck would be relegated to sitting in the driveway unless we came to some agreement with friends and neighbors about carpooling.  A run to the grocery or mall with 4 families splitting the gas bill might not be so bad, about where we are now.  Hybrid cars aren't plentiful or reliable enough just yet--the technology is still relatively new.  Don't know why we aren't using natural alcohol substitutes right now either...you know, from corn.

Greg

[cfabe]

Not feasable. People won't stop buying gas. There's about nothing you can do short of buy a more efficent car. We're still much cheaper than most of the world, remember. Alcohol from corn is an idea, but from what I understand the energy expended in producing and distilling it almost negates the benefit. Vegtable oil in a diesel engine is a much better proposal, I think.

[mhdishere]

I recall reading once that it would take the entire US corn crop to completely replace gasoline as a fuel source in cars.  

As others have noted, boycotting one gas company wouldn't matter, you'd buy your gas elsewhere.  You'd hurt that one company but help the others.  

Adjusted for inflation gas prices were higher in the 80's than they are now.  

If you want to lower prices you have to do one of two things, decrease demand or increase supply.  We can decrease demand by all the conservation methods, or we can increase supply by drilling in Alaska (as we PLANNED to do) or by increasing refinery capability (because cars don't run on crude oil).  Either of these will get the eco-nuts in a tizzy, but the US is NOT going to go back to horses and oxen.

[charby]

walk, ride a bike, ride the bus, carpool, drive a smaller car.  etc

[Werewolf]

Short of a technological breakthru in automotive power plants and the fuel they use there's not much one can do.

mhdishere got it right when he said:

If you want to lower prices you have to do one of two things, decrease demand or increase supply

unfortunately since oil is a finite resource even if demand is decreased thru conservation supply is still reduced as the oil is depleted.

Which side of the supply/demand equation gets reduced quicker will determine if prices go down or up. Even with conservation if the supply goes down enough prices will still go up.

In addition the US is not the only demander of oil in the world. If we conserve that just leaves more for other countries and net demand may not go down at all.

IMO we've got to eliminate our dependence on oil as a fuel and that will take new technologies. Best bet now is fuel cells that depend on hydrogen but until some one comes up with a cheap way to produce hydrogen that's gonna be a non-starter.

Who knows maybe there'll be a break through in fusion power reactors and we'll all get Mr. Fusion power plants in our cars. HEY! Anything's possible...

[InfidelSerf]

I'm curious if this topic was influenced by the FX original documovie "Oil Storm"
It was on a week or so ago.
It was interesting to think what would happen if a major hurricane took out one of the largest oil refineries in the nation.

But the show was rather sensationalist.  

Did anyone else watch it?

[Iapetus]

Typical UK prices for petrol (gas) are about 85p/litre.  Thats about $5.60 per US gallon at current exchange rates.  Most of the price is tax.

There was a big protest a couple of years ago, with many people boycotting petrol stations, and fuel truck drivers striking (and in some cases blockading refinaries, etc), which forced the government to back down on a planned fuel tax increase.  So popular protests can have an effect.

(Well, for a while.  Petrol is now more expensive than then, and a recent attempt at making another nation-wide protest never really got anywhere).

[grampster]

Werewolf hit the nail on the head.  Conservation in the US will just free up more oil for emerging nations and the prices will continue to rise.  We'll continue to pay more and our way of life will begin to diminish as we alter how, when and why we come and go.  That will have a ripple effect throughout our economy and in the end will cause more problems with job losses, reduced domestic tourism and all the implications of that.

What we really need are courageous patriots to run for public office and tell the extremists on the environmental side to take a flying jump at a rolling donut.  (Notice I said extremists!!)  I'm an environmentalist, but I also live in the real world.  Then we need to vigorously exploit our natural resources in a thoughful way.  In the meantime, I think it's worthy for government to give a hand up to entreprenuers who are trying to find marketable energy alternitives.  It will, in the end, benefit all of us, so we all should support actions such as this.
End of Sermon!

[Sindawe]

Yes, Oil Storm was sensationalist to a degree, but IMHO did serve as a wake up call to the masses in some respect.

I concur that we as a nation should do what we can to stop using oil as a fuel for our vehicles.  These folks http://unitednuclear.com/h2new.htm have an interesting approach, using current engine tech fueled by H2, and offering a solar powered H2 generator, should they ever come to market.

[jefnvk]

Haven't we already beaten this to death on THR?  The oil is out there, we aren't gonna run out soon, if companies start drilling for the not-the-cheapest to drill oil.  And if the political climate warms up, and we tell the tree-hugger where to shove it.

[client32]

Our city trucks are being converted to running on biodiesel

I was under the impression that there wasn't any conversion neccessary to use biodesiel.  Any diesel engine could run with it.

I am taking an interest in watching this.  Especially with diesel engines advertising 50mpg.

[mhdishere]

This isn't original, I read a similar idea a while back on (I think) THR, but it's true.

A hundred or so years ago people probably looked at their transportation issues and said "Where are we going to get enough horses?  How are we going to grown enough food for them?  And if we take care of the first two what are we going to do with all that horse manure?"

Within a single lifetime the horse was relegated to sport/hobby use or a few people who use them for farming and transportation because they choose to (like the Amish).

Right now oil is plentiful and moderately cheap, lets face it very few people stay home because they can't afford gas even with today's prices.  When it becomes less so technology will provide an alternative, and the gasoline engine will go the way of the horse.  I have no more idea of what that technology will be than the average horse-user had in the late 1800's.

[Fjolnirsson]

Sindawe, you beat me to it.

[HForrest]

Sindawe, you beat me to the United Nuclear link.

Why doesn't Bob Lazar just make an antigravity car with Element 115?

[SteveS]

Haven't we already beaten this to death on THR?  The oil is out there, we aren't gonna run out soon, if companies start drilling for the not-the-cheapest to drill oil.  And if the political climate warms up, and we tell the tree-hugger where to shove it.

It isn't just the tree-huggers.  Here in MI, gas companies wanted to drill under the Great Lakes for natural gas.  The tree huggers convinced the previously rational MUCC and the Republican gov. Engler that we couldn't have slant-drilling under the great lakes.  They protrayed directional drilling as some kind of dangerous, experimental technique that would result in a catastrophe.  Never mind the fact that directional drilling has been around for years and is being used all over the world.  Never mind the fact that Ontario is drilling under the Great Lakes for gas.

People are too easily swayed by junk science.  For the record, I am not a mining expert.  I got this information from my mostly liberal father that had worked for some years for a mining company and had taught courses in mining engineering at MTU.

[thorn]

sell your SUV. drive less.
use less gas. that is all you can do

[Ukraine Train]

Maybe I'll just get a motorcycle.

[stevelyn]

Our economy is energy dependent. Nothing will be done until the economy starts tanking as a result of energy costs.

[thorn]

Maybe I'll just get a motorcycle.

do it!!!

i love my bike. plus easier parking, carpool lanes, and CA- we love it- LANE SPLITTING!!!!

of course , depending on your location this could all be moot.

in the rainy season,riding can be a real drag

[Sindawe]

On the topic of transportation, I think this (http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4621909) coupled with a power source from these folks (http://www.blacklightpower.com/process.shtml) could be VERY interesting indeed if both pan out to commercial reality.

[Waitone]

Lemme see here.  We put proven reserves of oil off limits to drilling.  We put high potential reserves off limits to drilling.  We mandate boutique blends of gas unique to geography.  We don't build refineries in the US for the last 30 years.  We mandate environmental concerns as the prime concern.  We write enviro law that encourages any half-witted wacko to file a suit to stop any energy exploration.  We turn away from the most successful and safest form of energy because of perceived problems.  

In short we hinder the development of high density energy resources in favor of high expense low density energy.  We favor development of alternative forms of energy that haven't a snowball's chance in hell of being a viable alternative to fossil fuels.  We sit on the world's largest supplies of shale oil yet get huffy when the price of oil approaches the breakeven point.  We have more proven coal reserves than any other countries yet we put it off limits because of environmental concerns.

I've no sympathy. We're schitzoid when it comes to energy.  We sit in the middle of plenty all the while scaring ourselves into paralysis of action.  Make the economic pain bad enough and we will act but it will require the wholesale slaughter of sacred cows.

[jefnvk]

I got this information from my mostly liberal father that had worked for some years for a mining company and had taught courses in mining engineering at MTU.

Does he still work up there?  That is where I am attending school.

Yeah, I know that people can be swayed.  I m often conviced that he first opinion people hear on some subject is often the one that they will take, and defend bitterly.

[brimic]

Nuke China.

Unfortunately the downsides of such an action would not be enough to justify $125/ gallon gasoline.