First religious question

[Stand_watie]

Someone already mentioned the book of Job.

It's not neccessarily a great consolation to someone watching a loved one die of a painful disease, but God's answer to Job was another question...

Job 38 & 40

"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?... Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it."

[grampster]

Stand Waitie,

That part of Job is a favorite of mine, especially when I get feeling sorry for myself over some meltdown that is really of not much consequence.

Another is in the New Testament...something about the clay challenging the potter.

Whether one is a believer, or is of faith of some kind or another, or not, there is certainly a lot of wisdom in most of the "Holy Books".  One might wonder, or scoff, or find humor or shock, but yet there is wisdom to be had.

I've said before in discussions about "religion" or lack of it,  that belief or faith or lack of it, is an intensely personal thing.  It is better shared by living that faith or belief rather than trying to verbalize it.  Someone once said, "Actions speak louder than words."  I think proseletyzing is accomplished more by the actions of an individual in his or her own life rather than by words imho.

[S_O_Laban]

Job: in my opinion one of the best reads in the Bible.  Several here have pretty much summed it up.  Man was given his agency and rules to live by. For the most part most of us don't live by the rules thus we all suffer.

[Stand_watie]

Grampster I think you're referring to Romans 9, a good companion passage.

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

[MaterDei]

This is from a man who knows a thing or two about suffering.

"It is just to fight against illness, because health is a gift of God. At the same time, it is important to know how to read God's design when suffering knocks at the door of our lives. For we believers, the key to understanding this mystery is the Cross of Christ. ... Only when our pains are united to His do they acquire full meaning and value. Illuminated by faith, they become a source of hope and salvation."  - Pope John Paul II

For something more detailed... http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

[Perd Hapley]

Zundfolge, if you come from a Christian perspective, then you should pay closer attention to the implications of:

God's perspective is a little broader then our own so maybe he sees any suffering here as insignificant.

Sounds a little bit too much like WildifGoddoesn'tcarewhydoeshegiveusairtobreatheandwater
todrinkandfoodtoeatandthenallowustodisobeyHimanddestroyhisotherpreciouscreatures
withoutimmediatelydestroyingusAlaska's god.

Subliminal message translator:  If God doesn't care about us why does he give us air to breathe and water to drink and food to eat and then allow us to disobey Him and destroy his other precious creatures without immediately destroying us?

[Fjolnirsson]

Griz wrote:
"Why does God (or Gods, any Supreme Being) allow suffering?"


Here's another non-Christian perspective.
In my religion, the Gods are not all powerful or all knowing. Think of them as immensely powerful relatives, with all of the typical human vices and flaws. There is a code of conduct, which they strive to uphold, the same as mortals do. At times, one God or another may take particular interest in the life of a mortal, for whatever reason. Come the end of the world, some of my Gods are killed, with others taking their places at ruling.
The Norns are those who control the destiny of men and Gods. The Norns are three in numberUrth or Wyrd (the past), Verthandi (the present), and Skuld (the future). They weave the fabric of lives as they choose. It is said they try to stave off Ragnarok (our end of the world).
In my religion, hardship is something to be endured. It is thought to build character. Perhaps God/Gods/The Norns put us through hardship to see what metal is within us? To test the worthiness of the weapon, so to speak? The same as you or I would do with a newly purchased gun?
Just my .02

P95carry wrote,
"How come for some - they can sin all they want, screw up folk's lives and then - go and get absolution ... all ready to start over again?"

It doesn't work that way with my Gods. great emphasis is placed on the deeds of ones life, and the manner in which one lived and died. Great scorn would be heaped upon one who behaved as you described, and he would earn a place in Niflhel, an underworld hall, built of wattled serpents, where murderers, perjurors and
adulterers wade in venomous streams. The corpses of men are tormented there by a demon-wolf, who gnaws at them continuosly.

Sorry, didn't mean to get all caught up in that. What you mentioned has always been a big gripe of mine about the  "weekend Christian" mindset. Those who sin all week, then get pious on Sunday.
No disrespect intended to any Christians here. I have great respect for those of you who actually follow the teachings of Christ. I have several close friends who are devout Christians. We simply agree to disagree.

And with that, I'll stop my contirbution to thread-drift. Sorry, Griz, didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Byron

[Perd Hapley]

Fjolnirsson,

What's with this cryptic "my religion" stuff?  Name it, please, and tell us where it comes from.  Who knows, you might convert us all.

[Wildalaska]

Subliminal message translator:  If God doesn't care about us why does he give us air to breathe and water to drink and food to eat and then allow us to disobey Him and destroy his other precious creatures without immediately destroying us?

Large assumption you are maing that God give us all that?

By the way..assuming God does...which god?

WildconundrumAlaska

[Fjolnirsson]

Fistful wrote,
"What's with this cryptic "my religion" stuff?  Name it, please, and tell us where it comes from.  Who knows, you might convert us all."

Sorry, I wasn't actually trying to be cryptic or anything. I usually don't bother to name it, since it isn't very well known. I also try not to push religion on others. Conversion of non believers is not something my faith is concerned with. There is no need to "save" people.
It's known as Asatru, or Heathenism. It is a reconstruction of the ancient religion of the Germanic and Icelandic people, based on historic documents and writings, as well as stories passed down to the modern day descendants of those people. The ethical code of Asatru stresses self sufficiency, honesty and bravery in the face of adversity.
If anyone is interested in learning more, here is as good a place to start as any:
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~cherryne/mythology.html

[spacemanspiff]

By the way..assuming God does...which god?

duhhhh! you can just say 'god' and its good enough. didncha know 'dat?

spacemanveryfewunderstandsthereisapropernametobeusedin"ourfatherwhoartinheavenhallowedbethyname"or"baptizinginthenameofthefather,son,andholyspirit"spiff

[TMM]

"Why does God (or Gods, any Supreme Being) allow suffering?"

Because there is no god.

logically(HAH!...), there is a supreme being... but he/she/it just dosn't give a damn and lets us play without any divine intervention. if he/she/it didn't allow suffering, i don't think anything would exist.

but really, look at all this. look at yourself. you're thinking with words, just lines and sounds that mean somthing, and you're pressing buttons on somthing made out of a non-naturally occurring material, and letters appear on this piece of glass infront of you... that's pretty amazing in itself. now look at space... the endless expance of nothing... with rocks and big burning balls of hydrogen... and- also remember, everything is made, basically, with what stars are made of. you're looking at somthing that used to be a ball of hydrogen. but pressures and gravity pressed it into different materials. take a second to contemplate the exact expanse of space itself- endless- so goddamn big we can't even envision it... there has to be some reason to it?

~TMM

[Gewehr98]

A little levity on an otherwise deadly serious subject: