Who Here Is A Pilot (Private or Commercial)?

[Devonai]

I'm coming into a bit of money from an inheritance in January, and I'm seriously considering pursuing my VFR, IFR and Commercial certs.  I've researched a few area flight schools and had conversations with active CAP officers.

I also play Aces High II, which for all of it's limitations is still a decent flight simulator.  Combined with my FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, 2nd Edition, I am ready to start practicing.  So my question for Fly320s, Stickjockey and others is:  Can I effectively practice takeoffs, landings, go-arounds, figure-eights, lazy-eights, and emergency flight procedures with a simulator or shouldn't I waste my time?  This is a serious question because while it seems like realistic training to practice these things in the simulator, I have no objective point of reference.

Aces High II seems like good practice as I have had to deal with the loss of various control surfaces and landing while less than 100%.  I would like to know if I am deluding myself.

[S. Williamson]

You might also look into model airplanes.  The kind that have engines and are radio-controlled.

I've heard from a few people that those are harder to land than the real thing... not sure if it'll translate over, or what, but it's worth a try (and really fun!).

[Jamisjockey]

Get the latest version of Microsoft Flight Simulator.  Get the rudder pedals to go with it.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8054026&st=flight+simulator&type=product&id=1158316224275

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8240833&type=product&id=1168044612635

Learn as much as you can about ATC.  Alot of new pilots neglect to learn how to communicate properly and understand the ATC system.  Thus, in a controlled environment, they end up behind the airplane and scared shitless.
http://www.amazon.com/Fundamentals-Traffic-Control-Michael-Nolan/dp/0534393888/ref=pd_sxp_grid_i_0_1/105-6596639-7065201
And lastly, weather.  Learn as much as you can about weather and aviation.
http://www.amazon.com/Severe-Weather-Flying-Knowledge-Thunderstorms/dp/1560274271/ref=sr_1_4/105-6596639-7065201?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1189078645&sr=1-4
Good luck, keep the rubber side down.

[Leatherneck]

There are sims and there are sims: they vary widely in fidelity. The full-system sims that put you inside a cockpit and portray the environment around the aircraft are immensely more value than a simple keyboard/joystick where you have to imagine the surroundings. Physics-based sims that have been validated with actual flight test data are superb today--a far cry from the old Link trainers I learned instruments with. But they're hugely expensive.

Sims generally are good for drilling normal and emergency procedures, but as far as developing the actual hand-eye coordination and maneuvering skills, only the high-end total-immersion sims (motion-based especially) help develop the manual skills and familiarity needed. Useful as part of an overall syllabus, but not sufficient in their own right.

TC

[JonnyB]

While I have pretty much zero experience with flight simulators, I have no shortage of opinions. :-)

If you're going for an instrument rating, the simulator would probably be quite a bit of help. I doubt it would be nearly as helpful for anything else. Unless, as was mentioned, you have access to a full-motion simulator.

You'll need actual hours of cross-country flight time for the commercial anyway, so get out there and fly! Find a 'school' with a taildragger and get signed off. Get a seaplane rating. Rent the slowest thing available; you need hours, not miles. (I own and fly a 90-horse Champ that cruises around 88mph.)

jb

[Ben]

I got into Microsoft Flight Simulator before I started taking lessons. Though it helped me with instrument familiarization, I'm not sure how much it helped me with actual flying. Because I'm in small aircraft a lot for work, I actually think years of sitting in the right seat, watching and helping the pilot, and experiencing real flight conditions and WX, helped me a lot more than "piloting" the simulator (especially in radio procedures to keep guys like jamisjockey from yelling at me   ).

There was a big difference for me practicing things like go arounds and engine outs between the simulator and the real thing. And when my instructor jumped out of the plane and said, "you're on your own -- have fun." Well, I can honestly say when I turned crosswind on that first solo pattern, looked over and saw there wasn't anyone sitting next to me in case I goofed up, I had to tell my knee to stop shaking.  

This is not meant to scare you away -- my knee stopped shaking, and I had a blast knowing that I was handling everything myself -- but it was DEFINITELY different than a simulator.

That being said, I work with a lot of pilots who are required to switch platforms every few years. They often receive MOST of their training in the flight school simulator for larger, complex aircraft. A buddy of mine switched from flying a Twin Otter to a Citation, and all his training was in the simulator up until they put him in the Citation as the co-pilot. For smaller, prop aircraft like the Otter and Turbo Commanders, all their training is in the plane.

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

I am not a pilot, in fact I hate flying, but you might try out X-plane, if you're looking for a good simulator.
http://x-plane.com/

[charby]

I've always said if I ever get laid off I'm going to go find a school that will teach me to become a fixed wing crop duster pilot.

[Boomhauer]

I'm a recently minted private pilot. Started lessons in July '05 and got my certificate in August of '06. I flew mainly on the weekends.

I'm coming into a bit of money from an inheritance in January, and I'm seriously considering pursuing my VFR, IFR and Commercial certs.  I've researched a few area flight schools and had conversations with active CAP officers.

I also play Aces High II, which for all of it's limitations is still a decent flight simulator.  Combined with my FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, 2nd Edition, I am ready to start practicing.  So my question for Fly320s, Stickjockey and others is:  Can I effectively practice takeoffs, landings, go-arounds, figure-eights, lazy-eights, and emergency flight procedures with a simulator or shouldn't I waste my time?  This is a serious question because while it seems like realistic training to practice these things in the simulator, I have no objective point of reference.

Aces High II seems like good practice as I have had to deal with the loss of various control surfaces and landing while less than 100%.  I would like to know if I am deluding myself.

1) Don't bother with CAP.
2) Real flying is way, way different than the sim when it comes to the feel of the controls and what actually happens when you are in the airplane.
3) I'd go with X-Plane or FS 2004 (FS X is a system hog) for a flight simulator. It can be invaluable for practicing instrument flight and navigation. It isn't as great for the actual "feel" of flying. Use it mainly to practice your instrument work. 
4) I was a Flight sim nut, but I pretty much stopped after starting actual flight training.
5) Your flight school that you choose (whether you decide to go at a local FBO or with a Part 141 school) might just have a flight sim approved for instrument training.

Oh, and the hardest part of flight training for me was radio work. Pushing the PTT might just be one of the fastest ways to turn a student pilot into a blithering idiot.

[Brad Johnson]

I learned to fly in a Cessna 140-A.  It was a retired 1950 model patroller that Dad bought when I was a kid. 5350C.  I was barely big enough to reach the rudder pedals, much less see over the instrument panel.  As a result I was, quite literally, flying instrument before I ever flew VFR!  Even when I was getting my real ticket as a teenager my instructor had to keep telling me it was okay to look out every now and then.  Out of habit I was always scanning the compass, T&B, altimeter and VSI, which were the only ways I could keep everything straight and level before I was big enough to see out.

I let my medical expire when I moved to Lubbock.  Dad sold his plane about that time and it was too expensive to rent one just for a few hours of tooling around the boonies.

Brad

[Jamisjockey]

Oh, and the hardest part of flight training for me was radio work. Pushing the PTT might just be one of the fastest ways to turn a student pilot into a blithering idiot

That right there is funny!
We used to say that the fastest way to make a lawyer/brain surgeon/rocket scientest sound like a blabbering moron was to put them in a cessna.

Don't some of the flight sims let you practice or at least hear ATC transmissions?

PS:
Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC. 

[RadioFreeSeaLab]

X-plane has lots of ATC chatter.

[Brad Johnson]

Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC.

Doing it to ground control will get you parked in some pretty strange places, too.

Brad

[Art Eatman]

Thinking back on my seven years of messing around with 172s, IMO the part to really pay attention to is the ground school studying.  The flying is a piece of cake.

We had a local guy who'd been instructing for some 45 years or so.  The price per hour was reasonable and certainly cheaper than a commercial flight school.

AFTER you get comfortable with basic VFR flying and the communications stuff, THEN get into tail-draggers and IFR study/prep and the advanced stuff.  Variable-pitch props and twins and such.

I deliberately stayed with VFR:  "The graveyards are full of guys who flew IFR once a month."  I bought my 172 for casual sight-seeing and no-schedule cross-country.  IFR conditions?  Hey, I ain't goin'.

Art

[Fly320s]

Oh, and the hardest part of flight training for me was radio work. Pushing the PTT might just be one of the fastest ways to turn a student pilot into a blithering idiot

PS:
Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC. 

"Put your compass on 'E' and get out of my airspace!"  - Chicago controller (probably fiction, but accurate)


Devonai,

Like the others have said, a PC based Sim is not too good for VFR training.  You just can't get the true visual cues you need to fly, and it enforces bad habits: too much attention to the instruments.  Hopefully, your instructor will cover up all the instruments, except airspeed and altimeter, so you learn to fly without uses the instruments as a crutch.

Even the full motion, level D simulators the airlines use aren't good enough, in my opinion, to teach someone to fly visually.  They are OK, but there is still a disconnect with the visual to motion coordination.  They don't quite line up.  I can't fly visual approaches in a sim worth a darn.  But in the real plane, I can fly around without a glance at my instruments.  There's more to flying than just using your vision.  Hearing is also important and gives you many clues to what the plane is doing.

Once you do start your training, try to fly on a regular basis.  Three to four times a week, at a minimum, will get you trained quicker and at less cost.  Start hitting the books now.  The knowledge you need to know will take longer to learn than your flight training.

Have fun, and ask us more questions.

[Jamisjockey]

Ah, memories.
I remember when SWA went from favored status to last in line status.  Seems the pilots were trashing the airframes by flying them so hard.  Short, steep approaches (IE, the Salt Lake Slam Dunk).  Haul ass on final to 2 miles, throw out the anchor.  Good times.  Then the airline told the pilots to stop beating up the planes, and they were configured for landing on a 10 mile final.  Not good when you just assigned them 170 to the marker during simultaneous I-L-S approaches, you're running minimum spacing, and they are at 110.
"SWA 123, say speed"
"We're at 110"
"SWA123, say assigned speed"
"uhhhh..."
"SWA123, cancel approach clearance, turn left heading 310, climb and maintain ten-thousand".
"Approach, why are we being revectored?"
"Failure to maintain assigned speed.  I'm giving your hole to someone that wants it. "
"Approach, Skywest 456.  We'll take that hole and do whatever you want"
 
My (ex) employer didn't have a sense of humor about it when Southwest called.  I told 'em to pull the tapes and prove I did anything wrong.
 
I got a million of 'em....

[Devonai]

Thanks for all the advice so far.  I'm reading the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook with the intention of understanding everything inside, so it's taking some time.  I'm sure I'll have some questions soon.

I will say that my time in Aces High has at the very least given me a step-up on very basic stuff.  I've been up in single-engine aircraft several times so I'm quite aware of the lack of feel of a simulator.  'Course, I've still felt the urge to grab an air-sickness bag while tail-gunning on a Bf-110, SBM or Ju-87. 

[Ben]

I'm reading the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook with the intention of understanding everything inside,

At the risk of the other guys making fun of me, for learning a lot of the background material for the FAA written test and general knowledge, the King DVDs are pretty good. People like to make fun of the John and Martha shtick, but I really liked the interactive learning. You can often find them on Ebay.

My instructor actually recommended them as a good way to go, except for the "how to land" parts. King teaches crabbing your final, but my instructor hated that and always told me to "slip in like a man dammit". 

[cosine]

This has been a very interesting thread so far. I didn't realize that there were so many pilots (or those that used to fly) here.

You guys need to start a new thread and just tell all the funny, interesting, *whatever* stories or experiences you picked up while learning to fly, or while actually flying. Jamis could chime in too. I'll bet he has a lot of good stories.

C'mon, do it! I'm looking forward to the entertainment. 

[Devonai]

Post 'em in this thread, I won't mind.

[Boomhauer]

At the risk of the other guys making fun of me, for learning a lot of the background material for the FAA written test and general knowledge, the King DVDs are pretty good. People like to make fun of the John and Martha shtick, but I really liked the interactive learning. You can often find them on Ebay.

My instructor actually recommended them as a good way to go, except for the "how to land" parts. King teaches crabbing your final, but my instructor hated that and always told me to "slip in like a man dammit".  laugh

I think that the King videos have good info in them, except the Kings are quite corny.

I didn't bother buying any of the video courses. Sporty's and King both sent me intro discs, so if you get those, that might help you to decide. Sporty's has some good videos, especially with Richard Collins. Your instructor will probably have some of the discs from the various companies that you might be able to borrow.

Oh, and please, please don't start the crab vs. slip, or high wing vs. low, or any of the other great debates of aviation.


As far as ground materials go, I got Rod Machado's Private Pilot Handbook, the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook, an ASA oral exam prep book, a Jeppsen Written Exam prep book, and the FAR-AIM, which I absolutely loath.

Nothing will get you ignored, terminated, or vectored out of airspace faster than being an ass to ATC.

Be polite to the controller, and keep your transmissions short and sweet. Think before you speak.

I deliberately stayed with VFR:  "The graveyards are full of guys who flew IFR once a month."  I bought my 172 for casual sight-seeing and no-schedule cross-country.  IFR conditions?  Hey, I ain't goin'.

That's the way I am, too. People are constantly asking me "when am I going to start work on my instrument". I'm not. I don't desire to fly in instrument conditions. The only flying I do right now is once or twice a month, VFR, just for fun.

tell all the funny, interesting, *whatever* stories or experiences you picked up while learning to fly

Well, I had a cute female instructor (she is now an airline pilot).
Always, if you can, get a female instructor. Not only are they typically lighter than the male instructors, they also smell better. Especially on a hot, hot summer day.

Oh, I also made both of my sisters puke. While on separate flights. My instructor finally said that if I had any more siblings, that I had better not bring them along on lessons.

I almost got into trouble with the tower once. The controller wasn't paying much attention (slow day, Class D airspace, no traffic) and told me to use the reciprocal  of the runway (35 instead of 17) that we were using. It went something like this...

Controller: Cessna 123ABC, XYZ Tower, cleared for the option, runway 35.
Me: XYZ Tower, Cessna 123ABC, Cleared for the option, runway 35.
A little while passes. I am on left base for 17 when this transmission comes, so I extend it into a crosswind and then turn downwind for 35.
Controller: Cessna 123ABC, what are your intentions?
Me: XYZ Tower, Cessna 123ABC intends to land runway 35, as per Tower's instructions.
Controller: Did I say that?...long pause...

Then he proceeded to give me a lecture on why I should always think about ATC's instructions and make sense.
My replies consisted of "Yes, sir"



 

[Ben]

don't start the crab vs. slip

I actually did better crabbing than slipping, which caused my instructor no end of heartache (well, that and my tendency of near three point landings -- "PROTECT THE NOSEWHEEL" will scream in my head the rest of my life). Though slipping was often a necessity at the thermally active airport where I learned (full flaps, power off, and you'd still climb on short final), so I'm glad I became semi-proficient at both.

[Boomhauer]

I actually did better crabbing than slipping, which caused my instructor no end of heartache (well, that and my tendency of near three point landings -- "PROTECT THE NOSEWHEEL" will scream in my head the rest of my life). Though slipping was often a necessity at the thermally active airport where I learned (full flaps, power off, and you'd still climb on short final), so I'm glad I became semi-proficient at both. Smiley

I don't think mine actually gave a damn whether I crabbed or slipped- I think she was more concerned with praying that I wouldn't crash...

Actually, my technique is kinda half and half- point the nose at the runway, keep the airplane headed toward the runway and on a good approach profile, and kinda slip it in before flare.

My instructor's favorite mantra was FLARE, FLARE, FLARE, MORE RUDDER, DAMMITT!! FLARE!

Good thing Cessna's are tough.

[Jamisjockey]

"Approach, this is Kingair 456.  We need an immediate divert airport!" in a somewhat frantic voice
"Kingair 456, roger.  Descend and maintain XXX, fly heading XXX.  Whats the reason for the divert....do you require assistance?"
"Approach, no, we're okay....I've got my bird dog on board and he just took a huge dump...."
 

[Jamisjockey]

Data blocks are the displayed information controllers see on a radar screen.   The information can be modified on the fly, and there are a few little sections that timeshare back and forth.  Nicknamed a scratchpad.  It wasn't uncommon to put ass in the left pad, and HOLE in the right pad for uncooperative or rude pilots.  So there I sat, working a feeder sector, busier than a one-legged-man kicking ass.  No assistant, about 20 arrivals and 10-15 departures on my scope.  I was making a verbal transmission every 10-30 seconds.  Arrivals were being passed to the next sector with minimum spacing (3 miles between like types, a little extra behind heavy jets and B757's) That didn't include coordinations with other sectors.
Unbeknownst to me, our local Congresscritter was recieving a tour of the facility.
So there I sat, busy.  Very busy.  I'd been busy for around an hour.  And it was Sundance week.  So this Learjet comes over from the Center.  First thing, he wants me to accomodate his every whim.  And every time he transmits, it sounds like Times Square on New Years day.  Whatever big celebrity this is transporting thinks its bright to throw a party at 11,000'.  I stick him in line, and match his speed up to match.  Nope, we're not interested in slowing down.  *expletive deleted*it.  Turn right 30* for spacing.  Nothing.  No reply.  Turn right now 30* for spacing.  Nothing.  Third time is the charm.  "Turn right immediately thirty *for spacing.  Do it now or you're going to be last!"  So I begin modifying the scratch pad, and flashing his tag at the next sector, while chastising the pilot that he oughta be paying attention, ass and the guy he nearly creamed would certainly appreciate his attention.  HOLE  Supervisor comes running over and begins jamming buttons on my assistant keypad.  Which launches me into an expletive filled tirade about Supervisors, Learjets, and the Bavarian Illuminati.  Promptly followed by my fellow controller's combined laughter as Congressman Matheson is shuttled out of the room, I'm relieved from my scope, and given a serious ass chewing by the Operations Manager.