Author Topic: New standard hand position for driving?  (Read 5290 times)

BrokenPaw

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New standard hand position for driving?
« on: September 24, 2007, 08:45:07 AM »
BrokenMa and I had to go to a meeting at BrokenKid's high school the other evening, because Kid is old enough to be getting her Learner's Permit.  The purpose of the meeting was, on the whole, very good; it was aimed at reminding parents that teenage drivers are a high-risk group, and it's up to the parents to help mitigate that risk by teaching the kids good habits.  All well and good.

But one of the things they told us at that meeting, I cannot wrap my brain around. 

They are teaching the kids that the proper way to hold the steering wheel is at 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock, with an underhanded grip.  They claim that this method has the benefit of giving greater control over the vehicle, as well as protecting from hand injury in the case of an airbag deployment.

I've tried it, and I don't buy it, for a couple of reasons.

First, with hands at 8 and 4, supinated,  the elbows are locked down by the sides, and the shoulders are in a position that prevents inward motion; if you suddenly had to turn the car right, for instance, your left hand would rotate up and to the left, and your right hand would be dragged downward and inward.  Trying this put stress on my right shoulder, and it feels like if it were done forcefully enough, it would cause joint injury.  The only alternative is to let go with the right hand, and I was taught by my behind-the-wheel instructor that it was best to have both hands on the wheel for positive control whenever possible.

Second, with hands at 2 and 10, any steering action is initiated by pulling downward with the appropriate hand.  This is a naturally-strong action, and puts no stress on the wrists.  With 8/4, you're pushing upwards, which is an intrinsically weaker movement, and puts more stress on the wrists.

Third, I've been in an airbag-deployment collision, and I was driving with my hands at 10 and 2, the way I was taught.  The people at this meeting the other night implied that 10/2 would lead to hand injury during an airbag deployment, because the hands and arms would be driven up into the face.  I suppose this is possible if you drive with your seat so close to your steering wheel that your arms are bent at a 90-degree angle, but if you're that close to the wheel when the airbag goes off, you have bigger problems than whether your hands get hurt; you'll be taking the full deployment pressure of the airbag right on the sternum.  Further, if my hands were at 8 and 4, my frame would be locked in a position that is inflexible (where do your put your elbows for rigid support when you're carrying a heavy load? By your sides, right where 8/4 puts them), and the sudden violent motion with them in an inflexible position would lead to shoulder dislocation or elbow damage at the very least.

Fourth, they're telling us that this position is best because of how much safer it is during an airbag deployment.  Given that I've been driving for 18 years and I've been in an airbag collision once, I can say that my own personal odds are  at least 6500:1 against being in such a collision on any given day; with those odds, I'd rather be in a driving position that gives me better control of the vehicle, and take my chances on getting a broken wrist if my number comes up.

As anyone else hear of this 8/4 hand position thing?  Is it legitimate?  Or is this another case of Educators justifying their budgets by teaching something that runs contrary to common sense?  I'm inclined to fight the school on this one, and put BrokenKid in private behind-the-wheel classes, because of how wrong this seems.  I'm doubly so inclined because the teacher actually said (and this is a direct quote), "Don't fight us on this."  When people say things like that I get the automagic feeling that they're defensive about it and can't actually justify their position.

So are there any experts out there who can shed light on this?  Cops?  Driving instructors?  OTR drivers?  Has anyone even heard about the 8/4 supinated hand position?

Thanks,
-BP
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K Frame

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2007, 08:46:24 AM »
I go with a 9 and 3, myself.

Still gives you enough room that the air bag shouldn't cause problems, such as forcing your hand into your nose...
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Tallpine

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2007, 09:01:24 AM »
They should be teaching them to steer with their knees, so they can hold a cellphone in one hand and a latte in the other  laugh


Whatever happened to "10 and 2" Huh?
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BrokenPaw

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2007, 09:09:55 AM »
They should be teaching them to steer with their knees, so they can hold a cellphone in one hand and a latte in the other  laugh
Well, obviously.  That's what I'll be teaching her when she's in the car with me.   grin

With regard to the whole airbag hand-injury thing, I don't even understand that aspect of it; when I was in the collision I mentioned, I did receive minor injury to my wrists, but it was from the dashboard.  Meaning that the airbag deployed between my arms and did not push them back toward me at all.

Perhaps my geometry isn't up to snuff, but last time I checked, the airbag lives in the center of the steering wheel, and as it deploys, it expands outward from the center at the same time that it's expanding toward your chest.  So I can't think of any legitimate driving position where the arms would be driven toward the face; the worst I can see is them being driven outward to either side, or upward.

-BP
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mtnbkr

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2007, 09:14:00 AM »
Mythbusters tested the 10-2 airbag thing a while back and determined it wasn't a significant risk.   

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2007, 09:22:19 AM »
Mythbusters tested the 10-2 airbag thing a while back and determined it wasn't a significant risk.   

Chris

Since when would the publik indoctrination system let facts get in the way of teaching?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2007, 09:25:00 AM »
I found two different opinions on this.

The pro-8/4 folks say that:
1)  Not every body's geometry fits 10-2 or 9-3.  Women in general are shorter than men.
2)  Because your hands are in a more restful position, they are more likely to be on the wheel rather than resting on the door handle or center console.
3)  It discourages "hand over hand" steering in favor of push/shuffle steering.

The anti-8/4 folks disagree with:
1)  Greater control is afforded with the hands up higher.  It's better to dodge the crash than be safe when the airbag deploys.
2)  This concept neglects the other affected people in a car crash.  What about pedestrians, passengers, the other driver?  How are they better protected by 8/4?  Only the driver is safer, and that is arguable and marginal.

My two sources:
http://www.drivertraining.ohio.gov/resources/Steering.pdf
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/articles%20and%20topics/driving-myths-and-mistakes/steering-wheel-use.htm

I don't think it's the school "brainwashing" or anything... I do disagree with the statement your driving teacher made regarding "Don't fight us on this one."  School is a place of enlightenment and learning.  Or should be.  Open discussion as to kinesiology and biometrics should be applied.

If your daughter is particularly short, you might want to give it some thought though.  Might be practical for her to drive like that in an F250 dualie, but 10-2 in a little Mitsubishi Eclipse.

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BrokenPaw

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2007, 09:38:04 AM »
Thanks, AZRedHawk; that's the type of information I was hoping to find.

I'm not closed-minded about the issue.  But it's my besetting sin that when someone asks me to accept an assertion that runs contrary to everything I know, or can noddle out on my own, I'm like a terrier in that I will not let them get away without backing up that assertion.

BrokenKid is about 5'1, and will likely remain so.  The largest vehicle she's likely to drive any time soon is my Dakota.  More likely, my Grand Prix or BrokenMa's Pontiac G6.  So nothing too outrageously large.

-BP
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Balog

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2007, 09:38:24 AM »
I seem to recall a Car and Driver article a couple years back that reported one of the better high speed precision driving schools (Bondurant?) taught that way. If done properly ie shuffling the hands on the wheel it can be effective. And if you drive a manual you need to learn to control the car with one hand anyway.

YMMV IANAL or driving instructor, and I honestly don't have a precise recollection of the article I'm referring to. Just putting it out there as I know we have some C&D readers, seeing if anyone recalls it.
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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2007, 10:00:13 AM »
I used to do the 10-and-2 steering wheel thing.  I do the 9:30 and 1:30 thing now, so I can get to my destination a little early. 

Mythbusters had an episode where they specifically went into the airbag/hand position bit.  IIRC, they gave it a "plausible".  Lord forbid if you do that and have a steaming cup of McDonald's coffee in your lap at the same time.  shocked

(Or are gabbing on the cellphone, or doing your makeup....)

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BrokenPaw

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2007, 10:48:10 AM »
Gewehr,

It appears that the Mythbusters "Busted" the myth with regard to anything other than an artificially suboptimal grip.

In searching the web, most of what I see either favors the 10/2 (for greater control), or favors the 9/3 (for greater control), or favors the 8/4 (because it "may prevent injury to the arms" in an accident).

So far I'm continuing to not be sold on the idea.

I find interesting that both my 2005 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP and BrokenMa's 2007 G6 have handy ergonomically-designed grip points at 10 and 2 (and the 2008 models have kept the feature).  I would expect that if there was credible evidence that 10/2 caused or increased the likelihood of injury, a major car manufacturer would have done away with the bumps rather than face consumer outrage at the fact that Little Johnny was encouraged to hold the wheel wrong by GM's ergonomic design, and as a result the airbag launched his arms into orbit.

Balog,

According to what I've found online, Bondurant teaches 9/3.

-BP
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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2007, 10:50:26 AM »
Like Balog wrote, there are several high-performance driving schools teaching 8/4 hand position.  The idea is that a driver will have better control of his steering and reflexes, and hence less likely to over-steer or over-correct.  I read an article about it early this year in one of the car magazines at the local barber.  

I've tried the 8/4 position while driving, but, either because of habit or initial training, or comfort, I prefer 9/3 for the most control.
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Balog

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2007, 11:07:50 AM »
On a somewhat unrelated note, a very short person driving any airbag equipped car can be in danger if it deploys.
An average height person sits too close and takes the force of a deployment on their sternum. A really short person takes it on their face.   shocked Not sure how widespread the problem is, but I know of a few documented accounts of severe injury related to that. Dunno if 5'1"ish falls within that parameter, but it's something to consider.
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K Frame

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2007, 11:08:13 AM »
"I would expect that if there was credible evidence that 10/2 caused or increased the likelihood of injury, a major car manufacturer would have done away with the bumps rather than face consumer outrage at the fact that Little Johnny was encouraged to hold the wheel wrong by GM's ergonomic design, and as a result the airbag launched his arms into orbit."


You expect the American automotive industry to be at the forefront of safety advances?

Lord, man, what are you smoking and where can I get some? It must be REALLY mind warping stuff!

Hell, Lee Iacoca personally kept the airbag out of production at Chrysler for nearly 15 years, largely because it would eat into profit.
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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2007, 11:18:10 AM »
Comfort is a good thing. My old VW bus has a great steering wheel for the "elbow lean method."
 
If you're comfortable, you're generally more in control than if you are not comfortable. I generally use 10/2 when things start to get hairy, but most of the time it's 8/4... Because that's where the armrests are...
 


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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2007, 11:20:22 AM »
"I would expect that if there was credible evidence that 10/2 caused or increased the likelihood of injury, a major car manufacturer would have done away with the bumps rather than face consumer outrage at the fact that Little Johnny was encouraged to hold the wheel wrong by GM's ergonomic design, and as a result the airbag launched his arms into orbit."


You expect the American automotive industry to be at the forefront of safety advances?

Lord, man, what are you smoking and where can I get some? It must be REALLY mind warping stuff!

Hell, Lee Iacoca personally kept the airbag out of production at Chrysler for nearly 15 years, largely because it would eat into profit.

The airbag would have cost Lee, so there's a legitimate cost-to-benefit equation to at least evaluate before deciding what to do.  Removing the bumps on the steering wheel as a CYA measure wouldn't cost a thing, when rolled into the design of a new model year.

That's what I expect from the American automotive industry:  zero-cost mods that may or may not have an effect, but which cover their arses.
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

Balog

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2007, 11:22:15 AM »
That's what I expect from the American automotive industry:  zero-cost mods that may or may not have an effect, but which cover their arses.

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BrokenPaw

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2007, 11:25:48 AM »
That's what I expect from the American automotive industry:  zero-cost mods that may or may not have an effect, but which cover their arses.

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2007, 11:26:46 AM »
It is all wrong, I tell you! Everybody knows that the safest grip is L.A. style: 11-crotch! That way, you don't get castrated when the soccer MILF in the SUV in front of you chokes on her hot latte, pokes her eye out with her makeup pencil, drops her cell phone, and flips over.

On another note, airbags can injure you only because they are overdesigned to save drunks that don't use safety belts. I say let nature take its course and redesign the airbags to save and not injure people worth saving.


K Frame

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2007, 11:39:51 AM »
"The airbag would have cost Lee, so there's a legitimate cost-to-benefit equation to at least evaluate before deciding what to do."

As it was later PROVEN, the cost of the airbag was buried in the additional profits that were generated when Chrysler, 15 years after the fact, began to advertise itself has having the most models with airbags.

And, contrary to the claim, there's no proof at all that removing those bumps from the steering wheel would either cover OR expose a company to litigation or additional costs.

The American automotive industry has been, for decades, on the trailing edge of virtually every advance in comfort, safety, and performance.
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BrokenPaw

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2007, 12:03:36 PM »
Mike,

I'm not saying that Iacoca's decision wasn't the wrong one; simply that it was one that did involve significant up-front expense, and therefore one that would require considerable deliberation before deciding whether or not to go with it.

Whereas the bumps on the steering wheel would cost essentially nothing to remove.

My premise is that a hypothetical car-manufacturer exec, when told "Sir, there's a preponderance of evidence that driving in the 10/2 position causes cancer in soccer moms, and we have these here bumps on our steering wheels that encourage drivers to put their hands there," would reply, "Then take the damn things off, I never understood why the steering wheel needed warts on it anyway.  And fire Johnson for putting them in there in the first place."

The airbag thing would have been much more complex.  Apples != Oranges.

I'm not saying the removal of the bumps would have a legitimate effect.  I'm saying that if there was actual evidence that 10/2 was harmful, then (absent cost effects) they would just have quietly been dropped from subsequent models.

Quote
On another note, airbags can injure you only because they are overdesigned to save drunks that don't use safety belts. I say let nature take its course and redesign the airbags to save and not injure people worth saving.

CAnnoneer, they are.  They're called 2nd-generation airbags, or something like that.

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.

K Frame

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2007, 12:07:53 PM »
"Whereas the bumps on the steering wheel would cost essentially nothing to remove."

Once again, what is the basis for that contention?

Are you an expert in automotive design, manufacture, and inventory control systems?

If you are, General Motors could use you right now...  laugh
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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2007, 12:22:51 PM »
My basis for that contention is that the steering wheel rim is basically an inert piece of plastic.  There are even examples of non-bumpy steering wheels available for the engineers to poke at whilst they ponder such a radical redesign.

Now you're just being difficult out of spite.   smiley

With respect to inventory control systems, considering the sheer volume of different models and model years that GM's parts-tracking system already has to content with, I'd be willing to bet a dollar that it can handle the following entry:

Steering wheel, (1), no bumps on.

-BP

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Parker Dean

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2007, 12:25:55 PM »
I find that it depends a lot on the car whether or not the 8-4 position works.

If the car has quick steering, 15:1 or less, then one attribute needed is in place for 8-4 to work is in place. The other is steering wheel placement in relation to the driver. The wheel has to be fairly low and close. My 90 XR7 was that way and 8-4 was the best way to drive the car IMO. About any other position was tiring.

Almost every other vehicle I've ever had, all well-used domestics BTW, were not confidence inspiring when driven in the 8-4 position. In fact, I didn't understand how it could work until that Cougar came along.

So it appears that as with most things, it all depends on the situation.

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Re: New standard hand position for driving?
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2007, 12:41:57 PM »
I suspect that 10-2 and 9-3 are holdovers from the days before power steering as well as the air bag concerns we have now.  It requires greater strength to turn a non-powered car, and your arms are stronger on top of the wheel than below it.

Also... race car driving schools teach knowledge that isn't exactly always appropriate to new 15-16 year old drivers.  I'm sure that a BMW Z4 roadster is more road responsive and nimble (and easier to dodge an accident) than a 10 year old Chevy S10 Blazer, but what are you likely to give your new driver?

I'd give 8-4 an honest evaluation.  With modern power steering, the supinated arm position just isn't that big a deal IMO.
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