Author Topic: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?  (Read 20940 times)

Werewolf

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2007, 04:39:49 AM »
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Len Budney

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2007, 05:39:08 AM »
Homosexuality is by no means unheard-of in the Middle East.  Probably not even in Iran, of all places.   cheesy

I've seen one person (can't remember where) suggest an explanation of Ahmedinejad's remark. In the US, in the 20th century, "homosexuality" came to be regarded as an identity, so that people would say, "I am gay." Prior to that, even in the US, "homosexuality" was an act--in particular, a criminal act. To call someone a "sodomite" was similar to calling someone a "thief": it was not an assertion of identity, but an accusation of certain crimes. To say "you are a thief" is only to say "you commit theft," not that you were born with a larcenous "orientation."

The Muslim world has not adopted the western concept of homosexuality as identity. Hence they can say, with a straight face, "We don't have 'gay people' (in the Western sense), nor a 'gay community' (in the western sense). We do, of course, have criminals who commit sodomy, and we punish them like any other criminal..."

If it's true, as is commonly said, that Muslim men in their teens and twenties engage in same-sex relations, that would actually strengthen the denial of homosexuality as identity: those same men who use each other as an outlet strongly self-identify as heterosexuals. They would be insulted to be told they "are" gay. They're heterosexuals who, lacking access to females, make do.

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griz

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2007, 07:01:16 AM »
Opps, double tap
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griz

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2007, 07:02:22 AM »
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Hence they can say, with a straight face, "We don't have 'gay people' (in the Western sense), nor a 'gay community' (in the western sense).
If that's the case, they need better translators.  I guess she could have converted his comment to "we don't have a gay community as you do in the US".  At least it would have made it clear that he was trying to condemn our society rather than gay individuals.  And it would be equally damning in my mind.
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Len Budney

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2007, 07:32:56 AM »
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Hence they can say, with a straight face, "We don't have 'gay people' (in the Western sense), nor a 'gay community' (in the western sense).

If that's the case, they need better translators.  I guess she could have converted his comment to "we don't have a gay community as you do in the US".  At least it would have made it clear that he was trying to condemn our society rather than gay individuals...

I would say that his statement was meant as a condemnation of both--but even more significantly, as reflecting a radically different world-view. Namely, that "gayness" is not an aspect of one's being, but rather an act; in particular a criminal act.

We in the west are unusual not only in regarding incidentals as essential elements of one's being, which is a newish development, but also in pathologizing character flaws as diseases. Not only would non-westerners find "gayness" a strange concept, but they would even find the older idea of homosexuality as an "illness" to be strange. There really is a deep difference in world-view here.

As an aside, I'm no fan of pathologizing character flaws either--whether it be "compulsive" gambling, "sex addiction" or what have you. Not surprisingly, I don't find this difference to be damning of Ahmedinejad: his worldview is not inherently incompatible with libertarianism. I could easily regard homosexuality as nothing more than a behavior reflective of a character flaw, and still say, "I will not aggress against people who commit that revolting act, so long as they are aggressing against nobody." There are libertarians who take precisely that viewpoint.

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Bogie

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2007, 10:08:04 AM »
What the world needs is more people supporting folks who, if they were US citizens, would be charged with hate crimes...
 
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Len Budney

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2007, 10:12:01 AM »
What the world needs is more people supporting folks who, if they were US citizens, would be charged with hate crimes...

It's needless to say what libertarians think of hate-crime laws, right? Crime is crime, and hate is not a crime--nor is speech that expresses it. Nobody is defending actual crimes here.

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Nitrogen

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2007, 12:56:43 PM »
Nitrogen,

So was it a big lie when Bill Clinton tried to send my US Army Reserve butt to Kuwait in '97/'98 when Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors Huh??

Actually, it was the UN that told their weapons inspectors to leave, after Saddam refused to cooperate.

Notice that when George HW Bush, then Bill Clinton went into Iraq, both of our leaders at the time told the truth as to why we were there.  Then agian, if I recall, Bill Clinton went in right around the time of the whole Monica Lewinsky business, so that could be a wash.

I can understand why you're confused about the weapons inspectors bit, as the "liberal media" managed to get it wrong, after previously getting it right.

I'll use everyone's favorite liberal media to demonstrate, NPR: (National Politburo Radio, as it's been called)
"The United Nations once again has ordered its weapons inspectors out of Iraq. Today's evacuation follows a new warning from chief weapons inspector Richard Butler accusing Iraq of once again failing to cooperate with the inspectors."
--National Public Radio, Dec 16, 1998

"If he has secret weapons, he's had four years since he kicked out the inspectors to hide all of them."
--National Public Radio, August 3, 2002
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roo_ster

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Re: So why is Mr. "Death to America" on US soil making speeches?
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2007, 07:12:39 PM »
Nitrogen, that's cute, but don't expect adults to eat it up.

When a fellow like Saddam is "uncooperative," it usually involves credible threats of bodily injury.  The UN got its inspectors out because it feared for their safety.

Regards,

roo_ster

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