Author Topic: How much is $9.815 trillion?  (Read 14017 times)

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2007, 06:40:27 PM »
And just to drive the point home:


And that ignores what the Fed spends on S/S, include it and the non-defense spending would be nearly doubled...


$9.8 Trillion in national debt?  "Thank a Liberal"

Perd Hapley

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2007, 07:06:26 PM »
Quote
Out of control?
Yes. 


Laughable. 
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wooderson

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2007, 07:40:05 PM »
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Social Security - $620B
The bulk of the Health and Human Services Department budget (Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and administration thereof) - $700B.
Well there's your problem - you're including Medicare and Social Security, which are no more "welfare" spending than sending ammunition to bases in Germany is "Iraq spending." You might have noticed where I referred to and dealt with them earlier.


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brimic

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2007, 04:19:47 AM »
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Well there's your problem - you're including Medicare and Social Security
Entitlement programs are welfare regardless of their name.  Anytime .gov picks a persons pocket and gives it to another person, its welfare.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2007, 05:30:52 AM »
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Social Security - $620B
The bulk of the Health and Human Services Department budget (Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and administration thereof) - $700B.
Well there's your problem - you're including Medicare and Social Security, which are no more "welfare" spending than sending ammunition to bases in Germany is "Iraq spending." You might have noticed where I referred to and dealt with them earlier.
If it helps you sleep at night to think these welfare programs aren't really welfare, then don't let me ruin your illusions.  Stay all warm and safe inside your liberal cocoon, and don't let any of these uncomfortable truths sink in.


griz

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2007, 05:42:30 AM »
God forgive me for agreeing with Woodperson  angel but you are missing his point.  Note on the chart that even non defence spending has risen at an above average rate since the Republicans controled both houses and the Preidency.  In that time the majority of those Republicans have been re-elected.  Now unless there is a vast left wing conspiricy to increase speding by getting Republicans elected, it isn't the fault of the liberals.
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brimic

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2007, 05:52:47 AM »
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Now unless there is a vast left wing conspiricy to increase speding by getting Republicans elected, it isn't the fault of the liberals.

Liberal 'Republicans.'  The spending on welfare remained flat while Gingrich was in charge of spending. Out with Gingrich, out with balanced spending.
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wooderson

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2007, 06:44:09 AM »
Yeah!

Liberals like George Bush!
And Dennis Hastert!
And Tom Delay!
And Dick Armey!
And Roy Blunt!
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2007, 07:32:36 AM »
Ok, time for two more things to be said.

First thing: 
Growth (any kind of growth, be it government spending or anything else) is an exponential function.  Any chart showing growth over time should be an upward curve and not a straight line.  The reason is that as the measured quantity gets bigger, so do it's marginal increases every period. 

Take a look at this particular chart, note the growth periods in the late 1970's and the the early 2000's.  Both periods increased by about $150B*.  That does not mean the growth was the same during each period.  In the 1970's, the initial size was about $200B, so the increase to $350B represents an actual growth of 75% (1-350B/200B).  But during the 2000's, the initial size was about $400B, and an increase to of $150B represents only 37% of real growth. 

The same thing happens in all sorts of places.  The stock market is a prime example.  20 years ago, back when the Dow was at 1, a shift of 100 was a really big deal.  Today, with the Dow at 14,, a change of 100 points is nothing, just random noise in the system.

The point is that as time increases, the slope of the line should increase even if growth remains even.  So don't be alarmed that the line climbs faster and faster as time passes.

Second thing:
"Liberalism" has little to do with party lines these days.  Many Republicans are too liberal.  Blaming liberals and liberal-type policies for the increase in spending, even though congress was Republican, is no contradiction.  It is the truth.  The reason the Republicans lost in '06 is because they were too liberal, and the people were fed up with them.



*  Actually, according to this chart non-defense spending only grew about $100B during Bush's tenure, not the $150B I said.  I used the $150B value to help illustrate my point.  Actual growth during Bush's period is only about 25%.  25% is still too much growth, but really isn't all that much, relatively speaking.   Also note that a lot of the increase is one-time spending in response to the Sept 11 attacks and the Katrina disaster.  Note that by '04 or '05 the increase tapers off significantly.

griz

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2007, 05:07:23 PM »
The chart is in inflation adjusted dollars, so the growth you are seeing is the growth of the government, not inflation.  You can argue that the Rebublicans in charge are liberal or Rinos, but most here say we should still vote for them as the lesser of two evils.  So until we start voting for somebody other than those same Rebublicans we are getting what we voted for, which is a bigger government.
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tyme

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2007, 05:47:28 PM »
Quote from: Headless Gunner Thompson
$9.8 Trillion in national debt?  "Thank a Liberal"
The debt depends on the annual budget deficits.  It's that simple.
A Democrat president and a somewhat Republican-dominated congress managed to cut the deficits to below 0 for a few years in the 90's.

Since Bush has gotten into office, both parties have been too worried about getting their pound of fat from the annual budgets to bother to cooperate enough to achieve near-zero or negative deficits.  Including when Republicans controlled both houses.

It's not a party thing.  It's a politics thing.  BOTH parties are responsible.
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HankB

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2007, 03:57:15 AM »
Quote
Social Security - $620B
The bulk of the Health and Human Services Department budget (Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and administration thereof) - $700B.
Well there's your problem - you're including Medicare and Social Security, which are no more "welfare" spending than sending ammunition to bases in Germany is "Iraq spending." You might have noticed where I referred to and dealt with them earlier.
Benefits to retirees - who presumably have paid into the system during their working lifetime - may not qualify as "welfare" in the traditional sense, but there is an awful lot of money flowing out of the system to people who are nowhere NEAR retirement age. In fact, when my late father applied for his social security benefits upon retirement - benefits tied to a lifetime of taxes paid into the system - he noticed somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of the other applicants were nowhere NEAR retirement. And many didn't speak English.  shocked

As just one example, which may get some interest from people in this forum . . . Patrick Purdy, the lunatic who shot a bunch of kids at a Stockton, CA schoolyard, touching off a firestorm of gun control laws, was receiving around $700 a month in mental disability payments from Social Security. IMHO, being an unearned benefit, this most certainly DOES qualify as "welfare."
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MechAg94

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2007, 08:52:09 AM »
That is exactly why Social Security is Welfare these days.  It has been expanded to include a lot more than retirement benefits.  Medicare spending is the main reason why Govt health care is a bad idea.  Govt regulation and control of a chunk of the health care industry is one of the reasons why medical costs are higher these days. 
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MechAg94

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2007, 08:59:04 AM »
God forgive me for agreeing with Woodperson  angel but you are missing his point.  Note on the chart that even non defence spending has risen at an above average rate since the Republicans controled both houses and the Preidency.  In that time the majority of those Republicans have been re-elected.  Now unless there is a vast left wing conspiricy to increase speding by getting Republicans elected, it isn't the fault of the liberals.
That is exactly why a lot of the people who normally vote Republican are upset and why Republicans lost in the last election cycle.  It wasn't the War in Iraq as a lot of media will say.  It is the fact that the Republicans have pretty much wasted a majority in Congress.  Out of control domestic spending has been getting under the skin of a lot of people.  The numerous scandals don't help either.  I think the only reason they didn't lose sooner was Bush's tax cut. 

I don't like calling them RINO's much either.  It is a silly label.  Republicans were voted in during the 90's with the expectation that they would be the type to lower taxes and control spending and not over-regulate the country.  They started out with a few positives, but they have gone downhill since.  They started looking just like the Democrats did before they were kicked out before.  Unfortunately, the Democrats up there are pretty much the same guys as before.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2007, 10:03:58 AM »
Republicans, listen up.  I used to be one of you.  It's time Republicans realized that you aren't Republicans anymore.  The party is, rightly or wrongly, defined by what the Republicans who are elected do and say.  It's time to start voting for people who really believe what you believe, not "Real Republicans."  The Republican party is no longer the party of small government and low taxes.  It needs to be scrapped, melted down, and rebuilt, and with a new name.

Phyphor

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2007, 03:53:06 PM »
Republicans, listen up.  I used to be one of you.  It's time Republicans realized that you aren't Republicans anymore.  The party is, rightly or wrongly, defined by what the Republicans who are elected do and say.  It's time to start voting for people who really believe what you believe, not "Real Republicans."  The Republican party is no longer the party of small government and low taxes.  It needs to be scrapped, melted down, and rebuilt, and with a new name.

While we're at it, can we please do the same with the democrats?  Maybe put in some folks who are dems, but aren't so obsessed with getting elected that they'll do or say anything to keep the power?


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Paddy

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2007, 05:07:31 AM »
It appears the largest increases have been under Republican presidents, and GWB set the all time high.
http://www.lafn.org/politics/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.html

The growth in national debt stopped under Clinton.
http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm

And, as a percentage of GDP, the debt under George II and a Republican congress is exceeded only by that under Truman (who happened to be fighting a World War on two fronts at the time):
http://zfacts.com/p/318.html


HankB

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2007, 08:16:27 AM »
The growth in national debt stopped under Clinton.
That's because with people like Gingrich and Kasich in the Congress, we had a Republican party that actually tried to act according to Republican principles. (Though they BUNGLED the budget standoff and let Clinton get away with blaming THEM for "shutting down" government, when it was Clinton himself who actually did so . . . he wasn't called "Slick Willie" for nothing!)

As for your next point - debt under the GOP congress and Bush 43 growing rapidly - there's no excuse for that, and, IMHO, excessive non-military spending growth was as much a factor as the Iraq war in the GOP's loss of both houses of Congress. As Greenspan even said, they deserved to lose.
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Matt King

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2007, 01:17:10 PM »
"The Senate voted 53-42 to raise the debt ceiling to $9.815 trillion, the fifth increase in the U.S. credit limit since President George W. Bush took office in January 2001. "

But... but... he's a Republican!~ rolleyes

thebaldguy

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2007, 05:35:59 PM »
If I remember correctly, Australia paid off it's national debt late last year or early this year.

Balog

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #45 on: October 02, 2007, 09:56:19 PM »
The Democrats are at least more honest. They'll admit they want to raise your taxes to give Hector free healthcare while taking away your guns.

Pubbies are all "Lower taxes, smaller .gov!" and we all nod and smile. Then they *expletive deleted*ck us, either deliberately or through sheer stupidity. I'm so tired of the whole thing. Obviously evil 'crats, trying to hide their evil pubbies, and nowhere else to go. [/sigh]

Where's a viable third party not largely stocked with weirdo's?
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HankB

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Re: How much is $9.815 trillion?
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2007, 04:05:15 AM »
Where's a viable third party . . . ?
I understand Larry Craig and Barney Frank are thinking of organizing something . . . with Mark Foley as chairman, and William Jefferson as treasurer . . .
. . . not largely stocked with weirdo's?
Oops, missed that condition.

Never mind - we're stuck with The Stupid Party and The Evil Party . . . but they're looking more and more alike every day . . . BOHICA . . .  sad
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
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