Author Topic: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!  (Read 3383 times)

onions!

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It seems that four of the five public high schools in my city will graduate an average of less than one half of students.(!)& here I thought that schools were just passing kids that weren't ready.(ie.a kid w/a fifth grade reading/math level graduating).

Some of the schools in Detroit graduate 1 in 5...yikes!

No wonder people complain that illegals take jobs away from citizens.They are willing to work hard @ the jobs that the losers won't even try for.

Oh yeah,
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/wdc/dropout/index.html?SITE=AP


One of the guys I work with has a kid that dropped out a month into his senior year.He got busted for possesion(MJ) & spent a month in jail a month later."It's no big deal" was his response.Apparently he is part of a clique that considers it O.K. to start out a failure.& the parents apparently agree.

CAnnoneer

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 07:56:11 AM »
No wonder people complain that illegals take jobs away from citizens.They are willing to work hard @ the jobs that the losers won't even try for.

That is a generalization much broader in scope than what you have presented as support. Yes, there are a few places in the country, Detroit being one of them, that have chronically abysmal educational record. But, to say that illegals country-wide take the jobs of citizens because of that is a herculean leap in logic. Many of the jobs in contest are in construction and agriculture, and certainly do not require a highschool diploma anyway. The illegals are given jobs in preference to citizens because they are willing to work for less, not because the citizens are unwilling to work.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2007, 08:07:43 AM »
I don't think that illegals take jobs because our schools suck.

I do think it's pathetic that a illegals who are uneducated (by American standards) and functionally unable to speak, read or write (in English) are able to compete in the marketplace against Americans and win.  We ought to be ashamed that Mexican peasants can walk right up and do American jobs better than many of us can.

onions!

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2007, 09:08:00 AM »
The illegals are given jobs in preference to citizens because they are willing to work for less, not because the citizens are unwilling to work.

I don't believe that it Herculean,a bit of a stretch-sure,but a reason-certainly.

So are indicating that it's morally more acceptable to sit @ home collecting a welfare check than working for less money?
Because if it is then I'm gonna quit my job of ten years as I've been deluding myself w/thoughts of personal responsibility.


The only reason I included the line about illegals references to a conversation I had the other day w/a friend.He asked me when the last time was that I'd seen someone in a minimum wage job that wasn't either a teenager or a language impaired(an immigrant-legal status irrelevant).Hence the comment about illegals taking jobs away.Poorly worded & incomplete,I apologize.I've no intention of bashing illegals.

I don't think that illegals take jobs because our schools suck.

I do think it's pathetic that a illegals who are uneducated (by American standards) and functionally unable to speak, read or write (in English) are able to compete in the marketplace against Americans and win.  We ought to be ashamed that Mexican peasants can walk right up and do American jobs better than many of us can.

Yep.

Why do our schools suck though?I have me thoughts but...

OTOH,I'd kinda like to see the dropouts pay a fine,equal to the cost of educating them(wasted),back to the state.

jefnvk

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 09:38:51 AM »
I'd really like to see actual numbers.  Especially freshman class size versus senior class size.  I have a hard time believing that only 20% of students graduate from as many schools as they claim.

Also, the fact that they include 'free lunch' as a third percentage, behind retention and race, makes me think the graph is designed to lead the reader to a conclusion (unless it is being used as a poor level indicator, which it may be, but it should be made clearer if so).

Finally, I noticed a few names on the list, and I know that not all of those are traditional high schools.  The requirements to stay in Cass technical in Detroit, from Wiki, for example:
Quote
To stay in Cass students must maintain a 2.5 grade point average on a 4.0 scale. If that is not reached then such students are put on academic probation for half a semester. Students placed on academic probation are not allowed to participate in school related extra-curricular activities until they get their grade point average up. If a 2.5 is still not reached then the students will be "academically transferred".
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

Mabs2

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 09:42:38 AM »
Mine is a funny story.
I failed ninth grade, and the second time through, it was looking like I was going to fail again.
So I went ahead and dropped out.
It would have taken a week if it weren't for holidays, but I had my GED from the local Community College in a month.
Then I went a year and a half at their HVACR course.
Srsly.
I did in a week at one place what I couldn't do in several years at another.
I'm convinced the teachers there just sucked...the ones at the College were much better, so were the students.
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 11:22:59 AM »
I saw the report on WOOD-TV and they said it was mostly urban/inner city/minority dominated schools which had the biggest problems (no surprise there).

A lot of people blame the schools. Yes, the schools and administration are somewhat culpable but, most of it is because of the culture from which the students come.
Its a culture of failure.

If the parents don't give a damn about education, the kids sure won't either.
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Mabs2

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2007, 01:28:45 PM »
I saw the report on WOOD-TV and they said it was mostly urban/inner city/minority dominated schools which had the biggest problems (no surprise there).

A lot of people blame the schools. Yes, the schools and administration are somewhat culpable but, most of it is because of the culture from which the students come.
Its a culture of failure.

If the parents don't give a damn about education, the kids sure won't either.
It wasn't so much the school or the teachers, was mostly the other kids being too much of a fool and taking up all the teachers' time.
Teachers were too busy disciplining the idiots to help the kids who couldn't figure out algebra (My #1 weakness...went through the basic class 3 times...)
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thebaldguy

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2007, 01:55:54 PM »
I don't think we have a problem with our schools; our schools are fine. I think we have a bigger problem that cannot and will not be solved by throwing money at schools.

We have a family and parenting (or lack of) problem. Paying teachers' $100.000.00/year won't fix it. Building expensive state of the art schools won't fix it. Schools in Minneapolis rarely close even in the worst weather. Why? Because over half the students rely on the city schools to feed them. If these kids don't eat at school, they don't eat because their parents can't/won't feed them. I'm guessing that is a common occurance at failing schools.

If there is a problem here, it's bad parenting. Maybe we can change the definition of "child abuse". Perhaps if a parent cannot take care of a child, they need to be held more accountable.

Euclidean

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2007, 03:37:41 PM »
I'm all in favor of a merit based education system for this reason.  Many of the students in high school honestly don't want to be there, and honestly aren't going to get anywhere with it.  I reference my brother as the perfect example.  Hated high school.

What kept him going?

#1.  Fanatical parents who realize that the way the game is played, a real high school diploma is becoming a greater asset in today's world.  There are more and more employers, community colleges, and technical schools who aren't taking a GED any more.  It's not happening fast but it is happening.

#2.  Vocational electives.  That's right, the courses the school system considers the least important, the ones that are the first to be cut when budgets get tight, are the only things my brother actually did in high school that mattered to him.  Never mind the fact he did in fact go on to be a successful technician who contributes something of value to society, he's a poor student because he wasn't a math and English whiz.

We shoe horn everyone into this college prep regimen like that's how the real world is, that everyone is going to become a Rhodes scholar.  I had students who wanted to frame walls and put up drywall.  I had one who just wanted to drive a truck.  What the hell is wrong with that?  Why not teach them things related to these fields instead of assuming they're going to completely change their personalities to become intellectuals at age 16?  They were interested in these things, and the educational system failed them both because according to the standards our politicians have put in place, it's all about passing tests for NCLB.

Okay now I'm just ranting, and I have no idea what this has to do with the topic.  I'll stop now.

onions!

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2007, 03:55:20 PM »

Okay now I'm just ranting, and I have no idea what this has to do with the topic.  I'll stop now.

Don't stop!I think that what your saying has alot to do w/the topic.

I've met or known several women that have either an Associates or (at least) a Bachelors degree who are in their thirties,have a couple of kids,& are doing jobs that pay well under 40K/yr.Did they go to college because they truly believed that that business degree was going to be used?Did they do it because they had plans that were just interupted(baby)?Did they go because someone else was paying & they had nothing else to do?Or was it to make them feel better about themselves?

They did all finish high scool at least though. smiley

Bogie

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2007, 06:58:22 AM »
Too many kids are getting their "self esteem" cranked to the rafters, while their Readin', Writin' and Writhmatic (poetic license, okay?) skills remain buried in the corner of the cellar.
 
Then when it starts to be a situation where they should know how to do things, they quit. But they still feel darn good about themselves.

Know a few shiftless ones - Sad thing is, they're bright enough to function, and they think that they're _real_ smart, but they can't exist in the business world - even on the loading dock without someone _constantly_ telling them what to do.
 
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mtnbkr

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2007, 07:15:05 AM »
I do think it's pathetic that a illegals who are uneducated (by American standards) and functionally unable to speak, read or write (in English) are able to compete in the marketplace against Americans and win.  We ought to be ashamed that Mexican peasants can walk right up and do American jobs better than many of us can.

They're not doing the jobs better, at least not based on comments I hear from people who have to deal with them.  What they are doing is working well below market rates because they pool their assets, live in boarding homes, etc to stretch their sub-market pay.  If you're willing to live like a peasant from the early 1900s, you can get those jobs too.

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Paddy

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2007, 07:44:26 AM »
Interesting how you're all willing to blame the students, who are just kids, and give a pass to the failing, corrupt educational system that sucks up and wastes billions of $ every year.

Mabs2

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2007, 07:50:05 AM »
My uncle works in construction, and he's told me HORROR stories about people who are seemingly illegal immigrants.
Horrible construction jobs...literally scary things.
I don't know how many stories he told me ended with "So I had to tear it ALL out and redo it completely."
Quote from: jamisjockey
Sunday it felt a little better, but it was quite irritated from me rubbing it.
Quote from: Mike Irwin
If you watch any of the really early episodes of the Porter Waggoner show she was in (1967) it's very clear that he was well endowed.
Quote from: Ben
Just wanted to give a forum thumbs up to Dick.

mtnbkr

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2007, 07:57:10 AM »
My uncle works in construction, and he's told me HORROR stories about people who are seemingly illegal immigrants.
Horrible construction jobs...literally scary things.
I don't know how many stories he told me ended with "So I had to tear it ALL out and redo it completely."

I had a deck built this summer.  The "guest workers" the contractor sent to do the job tried to put a major structural post 1ft in front of an exit.  Had we not caught it, you wouldn't be able to get out of the door. 

Oh, and then there was the wife and kids of one of the workers who liked to hang around the jobsite.  I pointed this out to the contractor and they never came back (the wife and kids).  I wasn't excited about the possibility of some kid getting hurt and me getting sued because of it.

In the contractor's defense, they took care of any issues, but it was the workers who kept causing the issues in the first place. 

Chris

jefnvk

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2007, 08:54:19 AM »
Eucledian has a point too.  Before I left HS, the vocational shop classes got cut in half sizewise to make room for new foreign language rooms.  I could take 5 years of Spanish or French, but if I wanted auto shop, I had to go across the town to the other high school.  Computer classes?  When I graduated in 04 one lab (the programming lab) was still P1-133's.

Of course, the summer after I graduated, we had the money to lay down astroturf, though, on teh football field.
I still say 'Give Detroit to Canada'

MechAg94

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2007, 09:06:14 AM »
I don't know what my old high school does now.  They used to have some vocational and other classes.  The #5 student in my graduation class I think never even took algebra.  He was a bright kid, but I think he just wanted to be a farmer.  There were a number of guys like that who graduated, but were never on the college prep plan.  This was a small somewhat rural school school.  About 400 students total.

On the other hand, I remember one kid who was a dope head screw-up who scored over 1400 on the SAT.  Smart kid who just didn't give a damn. 
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Bogie

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2007, 09:43:52 AM »
Mech, I still don't.
 
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Barbara

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2007, 04:43:32 PM »
Quote
I'd kinda like to see the dropouts pay a fine,equal to the cost of educating them(wasted),back to the state.
 

Won't work. I dropped out because I didn't have any place to live and needed to work. A lot of other kids are in the same position. A lot of them go back anyway, so their education isn't wasted.

Euclidean

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2007, 08:27:31 PM »
I give our education system an F.  It fails the students in the interest of appeasing the politicians.  It's an institution of passing standardized tests not one of learning.

Want to make education better?  Warning: libertarian thinking ahead!

Step #1.  Get rid of the damn federal guidelines.  Seriously.  Read about No Child Left Behind.  Outta be called No School Left Standing.  Check out how many highly paid administrative employees (people who don't actually teach anything) your local schools have to have in order to satisfy federal guidelines.  My district was full of useless overpaid coordinators who were supposed to help enforce these rules, and they did mostly nothing but spin numbers and observe other people work.

Step #2.  Once #1 is accomplished, do this at the state level:  Get rid of standardized tests except perhaps as a "dipstick" type of measurement.  Administer the tests at the beginning of the school year so teachers can get useful information from them or just get rid of them.  Stop using multiple choice test scores as a punitive measure and the end all beat all of educational assessment.  Anyone who's ever actually studied assessment (like say an educator!) knows the folly of this practice to begin with.  You don't have to be a statistician to grasp the concept that filling in bubbles on a piece of paper is extremely limited in many ways as an instrument of gauging if the kid gets it or not.  Make sure localities control their schools.

Step #3 and more.  Get rid of supporting schools with taxes.  Turn existing school systems into member owned cooperatives like utility companies.  The basic idea here is that if your children are going to use these schools, you should pay for it, and you'd also control it like a shareholder in a corporation since members of a member owned cooperative can vote.  Basically the way this works is you buy your membership in the school system for whatever rate they want to set (perhaps a monthly installment of so much or a fixed amount of money up front) and pay so long as you're a member of the cooperative. 

The rate could be scaled to income with better off people paying more to offset a discount for people who don't earn quite as much, and civic minded persons and the like could be given tax incentives to foot the bill for these costs as well.  Since this step eliminates property taxes and the like, people would have that much more money free anyway.

What you have then is a system where only people who use the service or else volunteer to support it (not all support would be financial, donating your time could off set operating costs for example) actually pay for it, and the system would still be owned by and accountable the public, but not controlled by politicians or regulations, and it would have to compete with private institutions on an open market for your dollar.

Furthermore I'd set up a merit based assessment system, a portfolio style review if you will, every so many years in the child's academic career.  I mean a real assessment too, one that would consider all of the child's abilities, creative, physical, etc.  The first eight grades or so, we'd be pretty generous and lax, but after that point things would get competitive.  Someone with no merit whatsoever, and I mean the real losers, the bottom 5% that eats up 50% of the current school system's resources, would be given certification of what they'd done and they could go work for McDonald's or whoever and have a head start on their career.  Hey, it's better to be the shift supervisor than the fry cook, and if you can get there 4 years earlier all the better.  If they wanted to come back later and get more education, the onus would be on them to find the means, they already had their shot, and if it turns out they are worth investing some education in now that they see working at McDonald's sucks, they have the drive to find that means.

Candidates who proved they could excel at academic things just for example would be allowed to do so, and re evaluated each year or two (same for candidates who showed creative or vocational potential, etc.).  If their family could pay, it would keep doing so.  If they couldn't pay, same deal as before, the higher income people pay more to offset the cost to the lower income people, and civic minded entities could help out too, same as before.  Completely merit based, whole way through.

Best part is, don't like my rules?  Bring it up at the school board meeting, convince the cooperative members you're right, take a vote, bam, changed.  Your kids all out of school now?  You stop paying.  The school turns around and sells your membership to someone else who needs it.  You lose your voting privileges sure, but you don't have to pay out any more.

Bogie

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2007, 08:55:55 PM »
Quote
Step #3 and more.  Get rid of supporting schools with taxes.  Turn existing school systems into member owned cooperatives like utility companies.  The basic idea here is that if your children are going to use these schools, you should pay for it, and you'd also control it like a shareholder in a corporation since members of a member owned cooperative can vote.  Basically the way this works is you buy your membership in the school system for whatever rate they want to set (perhaps a monthly installment of so much or a fixed amount of money up front) and pay so long as you're a member of the cooperative.

And you think this would help EDUCATION?
 
Be serious... The football team would get voted the biggest budget, the basketball team second, and then the rest of the athletics would be scrambling. The library would get ebayed, and any student not playing a sport would fail...

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Euclidean

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2007, 09:02:45 PM »
Quote
Step #3 and more.  Get rid of supporting schools with taxes.  Turn existing school systems into member owned cooperatives like utility companies.  The basic idea here is that if your children are going to use these schools, you should pay for it, and you'd also control it like a shareholder in a corporation since members of a member owned cooperative can vote.  Basically the way this works is you buy your membership in the school system for whatever rate they want to set (perhaps a monthly installment of so much or a fixed amount of money up front) and pay so long as you're a member of the cooperative.

And you think this would help EDUCATION?
 
Be serious... The football team would get voted the biggest budget, the basketball team second, and then the rest of the athletics would be scrambling. The library would get ebayed, and any student not playing a sport would fail...



That is until parents who are more discriminating took their dollars elsewhere.  I would.  Good athletics and good academics are not mutually exclusive, lots of prestigious schools manage to pull it off.

The problem is, what you are describing is what's happening now, and there's no practical release mechanism for any kind of change.  At least this way you could pull out and say "No thanks."

What are your credentials in education Bogie?  Not insinuating anything, I really don't know.

CAnnoneer

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2007, 10:13:37 PM »
I am all for privatization, but some form of organized standardized testing is a practical necessity. Without standardized tests, it would be essentially impossible for colleges to conduct meaningful admissions screening. Observe that the SATs, albeit imperfect, are administered by a private company and utilized successfully as a major screening method in admissions. The SATs are not mandated or administered by gov.

Euclidean

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Re: I had no idea that the number of High School dropout was so large!
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2007, 10:17:51 PM »
Well I realize in the real world there will be tests as there has to be a quick and dirty way to compare students.  The problem is, they are relied on way, way too much.

Even the SAT is crap, as are many other standardized tests.

http://www.fairtest.org/

But do notice that the organizations which use tests like the ACT, SAT, GRE, GMAT, etc. generally don't just look at the test score alone, they at least consider other factors.  That's a key difference.  In the public schools, the test is all there is.  There is no academic integrity in most secondary schools, they've become test training mills.