Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?

[Euclidean]

I have to do a Power Point for a class this semester over a general knowledge/hobby sort of topic over something that interests us.  One of the things that interests me is looking critically at past presidents and seeing that yes, FDR was an aspiring dictator, Nixon was a racist, Carter was ineffectual, Hoover actually did try to alleviate the suffering caused by the Great Depression, etc.  I also considered building your own AR15, but I don't think it would really make for a cogent presentation as I'd have to leave a lot and I mean a lot of stuff out.  I might still do the history of the M16 however as a backup.

Anyway I'm currently considering the idea of "An American Jerk".  I wanted to call it "Lincoln was a Bastard" but I don't think that would fly.

Abraham Lincoln is I feel wrongly venerated.  He did a lot of terrible things, such as shutting down newspapers that were critical of the war, jailing his critics, suspending habeas corpus, and really that's just the start.  The trouble is that the firm documentation and research which points out that Lincoln was anything but a legend and the great emancipator or anything else we think of as positive is hard to find, because people don't want to hear that the man on the five dollar bill was anything but great.  He's one of our most admired presidents for no good reason whatsoever.

I was just wondering if there were any other Lincoln critics who could point me to anything good you happen to know off the top of your head.

[Len Budney]

There's always the show-trial and exile of Clement Vallandigham, who was denied habeas corpus, tried by a military commission, sentenced to two years, and then forcibly exiled to the South. More here.

Then there's Lincoln's decision to write a warrant for the arrest of Chief Justice Taney for his decision in Ex Parte Merriman. More here, although Charles Adams divides the blame between Lincoln and Secretary of State William Seward.

Tom DiLorenzo has a lot to say, but his books are second-rate. I'd only use Tom as a starting point to leap into more thoroughly-documented literature.

--Len.

[Euclidean]

Good stuff Mr. Budney!  The best I could dredge up was a copy of Sam Dickson's essay.  Thanks much.

[Perd Hapley]

Riley will not be pleased with you gentlemen.   

El Tejon may also stop by to damn your Rebel sympathies.  Don't mind him, he's a dyed-in-the-wool Yankee tight-pants.   

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

how about that speech where he supported slavery?
or the time he sent the fed troops into md to vote and jailed the town officials to makle sure md stayed on his side of the line

[AntiqueCollector]

It's a pity John Wilkes Booth didn't act quicker in ridding the country of that tyrant.

[Nick1911]

Took me a while to figure out that we weren't talking about welders or cars. 

[charby]

another one is to point out how Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarized on his dissertation

[Fjolnirsson]

I've long been fond of this quote:


    I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black racesthat I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.


-Abraham Lincoln, during his fourth debate with Stephen Douglas.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

thats the one i was looking for  good job

[CAnnoneer]

Lincoln is one of the best examples for the veracity of the principle that meagre characters should stay away from leadership, for everybody's good.

[DustinD]

I am sure everyone here knows this one, but some of Euclidean's class mates may not.

Lincoln is well known for ending slavery in the United States. In 1861  1862, however, he made it clear that the North was fighting the war to preserve the Union, not to abolish slavery. Freeing the slaves became, in late 1862, a war measure to weaken the rebellion by destroying the economic base of its leadership class. Abolitionists criticized Lincoln for his sluggishness over slavery per ses, but on August 22, 1862, Lincoln explained:

 I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." ... My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." - source http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

You could also mention his misuse of presidential pardons. I heard about it on the History Channel so I do not have a source.

Both sides had absolutely horrible POW camps that lead to many deaths, disfigurements, and other permanent injuries. Lincoln knew about the conditions and was partially responsible for them. In many ways prisoner mistreatment was used as retribution for alleged wrong doings by the other side.

If you have not already read wikipedia's article it may give you some ideas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln

[De Selby]

another one is to point out how Martin Luther King Jr. plagiarized on his dissertation

How does that fit in?

Lincoln is famous and revered because he won a big war.  That is how American politics work-you win a big war, you are a hero. 

This also happened to be the war that flatly ended institutional slavery in the entire United States; I believe that would be another reason why Lincoln is so revered.

You can make a lot of policy and character flaws, and still be revered, if you won a big war and ended slavery. 

[CAnnoneer]

You can make a lot of policy and character flaws, and still be revered, if you won a big war and ended slavery. 

So you revere Comrade Stalin as well? After all, he won a big war and ended Nazi slavery. 

[De Selby]

You can make a lot of policy and character flaws, and still be revered, if you won a big war and ended slavery. 

So you revere Comrade Stalin as well? After all, he won a big war and ended Nazi slavery. 

I sure don't-but then again he wouldn't fit a theory as to how American politicians become legendary, being that he wasn't American.

Don't expect anyone to buy parallels, no matter how sensible, between Lincoln and Stalin. 

[Euclidean]

Well this is a short presentation.  Here's how I'm going to do it: reveal the degree to which Lincoln is revered almost worshiped, set up the legend of Lincoln in different facets (Honest Abe vs. Lincoln the hypocrite, the perception of Lincoln as a strong Christian vs. the reality of his atheist beliefs and how he hid them, Lincoln's completely inconsistent and non comittal attitude towards ending slavery and racist beliefs, his abuses of office, and war crimes.)  Then explain briefly why I'll explain why Lincoln is so revered.  The theme of the presentation is that we are not well served by ignoring history in favor of embracing the legend of a man that we wish had existed.

[Soybomb]

I think that would be a good presentation.  While we can respect some of the accomplishments of the founding fathers, lincoln, gandhi, mother theresa, we often forget that they were also regular people and had their own flaws and misdeeds.

[Jamisjockey]

Villify Lincoln and prepare to be called a racist.  Libs find that to be thier easiest defense against reason or truth.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

you know that grant owned slaves? his wife did and and since he owned wife and all her property by default

[Len Budney]

Not Lincoln's biggest crime, but a dirty trick nonetheless:

Ever wonder where Arlington Cemetery came from? It was originally the estate of General Robert E. Lee. Lincoln seized it and filled it with corpses so that whichever way the war went, Lee wouldn't be getting his property back.

--Len.

[Werewolf]

Assuming that preserving the Union was a good thing and most would agree that it was; makes Lincoln's many illegal actions proof that indeed, sometimes, the end does justify the means.

That said by contemporary standards Lincoln is not the hero many would make him out to be. But how can he be judged fairly without being judged by the standards of the times in which he lived. The founders of the greatest nation on earth would be judged as terrorists, evil slave owning land barons, tax cheats etc by contemporary standards.

Lucky for us all that the founders and Lincoln behaved as they did.

[Euclidean]

Villify Lincoln and prepare to be called a racist.  Libs find that to be thier easiest defense against reason or truth.

Really I'm not out to villify the man (I do think he wasn't a very good person but I'll try to leave my judgments out of it) or play character assassination, just to tell the truth.  But yeah, someone's going to be thinking that.  Oh well screw 'em, I'm telling the truth as best as I know it and that's nothing to apologize for.

I sometimes wish I were anything but a white person, and this is one of those times.  If I were black and delivered this same message, people would have a much harder time ignoring it.  Que sera sera (spelling).

That said by contemporary standards Lincoln is not the hero many would make him out to be. But how can he be judged fairly without being judged by the standards of the times in which he lived. The founders of the greatest nation on earth would be judged as terrorists, evil slave owning land barons, tax cheats etc by contemporary standards.

That is true, but my criticism of the man has mostly to do with the fact that he's so damned inconsistent.  The same man who tried to argue that black people have rights even though they might be thought of as inferior is the same man who drafted a provision for slavery for the Florida state consituition.  The same man who was once a proud atheist quietly put those beliefs aside when it was to his political advantage.

Lincoln was a shrewd politician, and if you look at his political career, he was always interested in advancing his side or his faction, and little else.

But all that aside, people need to know the truth, that they've been revering a fictional character in American history.

And quite frankly when I look at how out of control the fed gov is now, I am not so sure it's a good thing the North won, but that's all speculation.  I think the Civil War is vastly more complicated than Good Guys v. Bad Guys.

[Fjolnirsson]

Villify Lincoln and prepare to be called a racist.  Libs find that to be thier easiest defense against reason or truth.

True. Perhaps you could start out with that quote I posted earlier, and ask the class who said it. When you give them the answer, you've put their position on shaky ground, which should silence all but the most self delusional of them.

[Joe Demko]

I think your choice of topics indicates that your true hobby is shitstirring.

But all that aside, people need to know the truth, that they've been revering a fictional character in American history.

That is true of virtually every revered figure in the history of any country.

[Glock Glockler]

Lincoln had good press, and when your side wins the war you become the hero:)  It worked the same way Stalin became "Uncle Joe" when the USSR was our ally.