Author Topic: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?  (Read 11552 times)

Joe Demko

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2007, 03:12:09 AM »
If the law, including the Constitution, supported slavery, then the law was wrong.  I do believe you guys are the bunch who do a lot of hollering about not having any obligation to obey the law when it wrong...or is that only gun laws?
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Glock Glockler

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2007, 05:25:36 AM »
Joe,

Do you find it a bit odd though that slavery was completely legal according to the SCOTUS?  So is it specifically slavery at that point or the fact that the Northern states seemed to do what they pleased regardless of the agreement (Constitution)?

Joe Demko

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2007, 07:54:20 AM »
I look at it this way:  Slavery is horrifically wrong.  It is evil.  If I had been around in that era I would have been a radical, militant abolitionist.  IOW, I don't care care now and wouldn't have cared then what SCOTUS, The Constitution, or various state laws said about the topic.
Was slavery the only reason for the war?  No, but I don't care.  Was Abe Lincoln a saint?  No, but I don't care.  What I care about is that an evil institution was eliminated.
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Len Budney

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2007, 08:28:45 AM »
Was slavery the only reason for the war?  No, but I don't care.  Was Abe Lincoln a saint?  No, but I don't care.  What I care about is that an evil institution was eliminated.

The only problem with that position is that other evil things were done in the process. Earlier I gave the example: suppose I "eliminated slavery" by killing every African on the continent? Would you say, "Was Len a mass murderer? Yes, but I don't care. Did he commit genocide? Yes, but I don't care. All I care about is that he eliminated slavery"? Of course you wouldn't.

In Lincoln's case, more than half a million people were slaughtered. Unlike my hypothetical, the ones killed were mostly white. Nevertheless, the elimination of slavery involved mass murder on a scale that would be horrifying even today. In suspending habeas corpus he set a precedent which helped make it possible for Bush to eliminate habeas corpus today--this time, probably forever.

Slavery was evil, needed to be eliminated, and would have been eliminated, eventually, anyway. If we grant for discussion that Lincoln was the "cure," then he was worse than the disease.

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Joe Demko

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #54 on: November 06, 2007, 08:31:57 AM »
Specifically, please, what do you mean by:
Quote
the elimination of slavery involved mass murder on a scale that would be horrifying even today

The term "mass murder" implies, to me, a systematic and deliberate effort to kill a target group of people.  Who were these people that you are saying were murdered?
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Len Budney

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #55 on: November 06, 2007, 08:36:38 AM »
Specifically, please, what do you mean by:
Quote
the elimination of slavery involved mass murder on a scale that would be horrifying even today

The term "mass murder" implies, to me, a systematic and deliberate effort to kill a target group of people.  Who were these people that you are saying were murdered?

I don't really care what it means to you, I'm afraid. Lincoln's war of aggression against the seceding states (which had every right to secede) resulted in over half a million deaths. That included soldiers on both sides, and of course the folks murdered, e.g., on Sherman's "march to the sea" murdering, raping and pillaging. You can't dismiss those dead as "fortunes of war" when you're the war criminal who started it in the first place--nor can you justify it by saying, "Whoops!"

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Joe Demko

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #56 on: November 06, 2007, 08:39:43 AM »
Your definition of mass murder is so broad, then, that basically everybdy who is killed in a war is a victim of mass murder.  Thank you.
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Len Budney

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2007, 08:41:12 AM »
Your definition of mass murder is so broad, then, that basically everybdy who is killed in a war is a victim of mass murder.  Thank you.

Sure, I guess you could say that--but be clear: ALL deaths on BOTH sides are the fault of the one who started the war. Not counting specific cases like crimes committed by an individual soldier.

War is just killing on a large scale; the principle is no different than for individual action. If you invade my house and kill my dog, and I kill you, then both deaths are on your head. That's why the man defending himself against aggression is not a murderer.

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Joe Demko

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2007, 08:46:57 AM »
Whatever, Len.
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Len Budney

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2007, 08:48:59 AM »
Whatever, Len.

Well, it's kind of important. Otherwise when Bush invades Iraq and kills half a million people, you might up and say, "Well, that doesn't count as murder because it was a war." I mean, you personally would never say that I'm sure--but someone might. And that would be terrible, don't you agree? By that standard, the Holocaust wasn't really murder, since Germany was at war.

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roo_ster

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Uriniating in Cheerios, Parts One and Two
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2007, 10:09:27 AM »
Part One

If I had been around in that era I would have been a radical, militant abolitionist.
Balderdash. 

The number of militant abolitionists could be counted on my fingers and toes.  After John Brown was hanged and his insurrection quashed, you'd need nobody's fingers & toes to count those outside of prison or the grave.  If you were such a militant, you would have gone down with them.

The number of radical (but not militant) abolitionists was larger, but still minuscule.  Not even Lincoln could be counted in their ranks. 

The majority of folks was not particularly incensed by slavery and could not be drawn into war over the issue.  Lincoln understood this and framed his rhetoric accordingly.  People like my ancestor who volunteered for one of the Iowa infantry regiments did so to preserve the Union, not for strangers of a different race they never met.  Later on, the idea that they could socially engineer the South became more popular.

Oh, perhaps you mean, "If I were to somehow transport my early 21st century sensibility to mid-19th century America, I would be...?"  Heh, I doubt that anyone with a lick of sense would sign on to John Brown's suicide mission, given foreknowledge of the outcome. 

------------
Part Two

Also, I find it interesting how folks can predict that slavery would die out on its own in the South. 

Any ideas as to when or what specific event/mechanism?  "Economics" is NOT a sufficient answer.  The old plantations in the Carolinas were breeding plenty of slaves for sale to slave states west of them, increasing the overall slave population.  The slave population in nearly every slave state was self-sustaining even without the Old South slave breeding farms.  Given that, the Atlantic slave trade would have lowered the price per slave, but was not necessary for slavery to survive in the South.  Also, slaves constituted the largest portion of capital in the South.

I think it unsupportable to predict its immanent demise.  Heck, Saudi Arabia only officially ended slavery in the 1960s, though the practice is still widespread in SA and other bass-ackwards dunghole countries.

I'm thinking that the voluntary, non-violent ending of slavery was not going to occur for a good, long time.
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roo_ster

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Joe Demko

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2007, 10:21:28 AM »
Quote
Balderdash. 


Your ability to know what I would have done is uncanny.
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Glock Glockler

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2007, 10:31:20 AM »
Your ability to know what I would have done is uncanny

Ok, while we are getting seriously off-topic why do you think the "you" back then would be even remotely similar to who you are today?  I think what jfruser might be getting at is not clairvoyance but rather that chances that someone would be a militant abolitionist were extremely small.

Also, why does the goal of ending slavery necessitate bloody conflict?  Slavery was eliminated elsewhere without a civil war so perhaps there was a better way of doing it.

Len Budney

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Re: Uriniating in Cheerios, Parts One and Two
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2007, 10:32:21 AM »
Also, I find it interesting how folks can predict that slavery would die out on its own in the South. 

Fair question.

Quote
Any ideas as to when or what specific event/mechanism?

Yes. We have models, because other countries (including England) had already ended slavery without bloodshed. In England, the government "bought" all the slaves and then freed them, before banning the practice. Buying out the existing slave-owners is a non-bloody way of handling their financial objections, and is much, much cheaper than a civil war.

Pressure to end slavery would have come from more than one place, but international trade was a notable one. By the late 19th century, Europe and England would without doubt have imposed trade barriers against goods produced with slave labor. In fact, they did more-or-less that during the war between the states. Foreign sympathy mostly went to the Confederacy, because they saw the primary issue as economic oppression by the North. They didn't send much aid to the South, though, mainly because of their objections to slavery. Were it not for slavery, or even if the South could have spun their cause better, they might well have had enough foreign support to win their independence.

Quote
"Economics" is NOT a sufficient answer.

I agree. Economics is the answer, but just saying that doesn't explain anything.

The biggest economic drawback of slavery is that it fails to take advantage of the division of labor. A slave-owner must provide shelter, food, clothing, medical care, etc., and must deal with all sorts of logistics like the upkeep of children and elderly slaves. In some sense the problem is still there if he frees his slaves and then hires them back; he's still carrying their costs of living. But he no longer has to set aside land for slave shacks, nor to employ guards at night to watch them, etc. He doesn't have to devote manpower to handling the kids or caring for the elderly, which would have been done by a few slaves who therefore weren't picking cotton.

He does better if he frees his slaves and hires them back, even if his labor costs are unchanged. More of his land is growing cotton. All of his manpower is producing his cash crop. When someone is too old or too young to work, he doesn't have to think about them at all. The workers handle their own food, clothing and doctor visits, on their own time. He can let most of his guards and overseers go. He's free to focus on the one thing he does best: sell his crop.

If he clings to his slave-holding ways, as some surely would, the competition will clean his clock. He simply can't compete with someone who focuses exclusively on business. Eventually he'll be driven bankrupt unless he gets out of the slave business.

Quote
I think it unsupportable to predict its immanent demise.  Heck, Saudi Arabia only officially ended slavery in the 1960s, though the practice is still widespread in SA and other bass-ackwards dunghole countries.

True. But the main thing that makes slave-owning profitable is precisely that they are bass-ackward dungholes. One African harvesting yams with motorized equipment would out-compete dozens doing it with slave labor. But they mostly don't have mechanical equipment, and the roads suck, and everything is home-made. Their local economy is too primitive, and they're too poor, for an effective division of labor. A solid, free-market economy would change all that.

It's no coincidence that the end of slavery roughly coincided with the industrial revolution.

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Paddy

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2007, 10:41:21 AM »
Quote
Europe and England would without doubt have imposed trade barriers against goods produced with slave labor.

That's an interesting assertion given that we haven't imposed any trade barriers against the ever increasing goods imported from countries using slave and child labor.   All we care about is "Alway Low Prices. Always".



Quote
It's no coincidence that the end of slavery roughly coincided with the industrial revolution.

We may not practice slavery within our borders, but we sure as hell subsidize it overseas.

Joe Demko

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2007, 10:44:28 AM »
Your ability to know what I would have done is uncanny

Ok, while we are getting seriously off-topic why do you think the "you" back then would be even remotely similar to who you are today?  I think what jfruser might be getting at is not clairvoyance but rather that chances that someone would be a militant abolitionist were extremely small.

Also, why does the goal of ending slavery necessitate bloody conflict?  Slavery was eliminated elsewhere without a civil war so perhaps there was a better way of doing it.


Because I like to think that the "me" back then would have been a slender_almost pixieish_woman from the North East whose strong Quaker upbringing would have resulted in my abolitionist beliefs.
Any more questions about hypothetical iterations of my life force?
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Len Budney

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2007, 10:52:29 AM »
Quote
Europe and England would without doubt have imposed trade barriers against goods produced with slave labor.

That's an interesting assertion given that we haven't imposed any trade barriers against the ever increasing goods imported from countries using slave and child labor.   All we care about is "Alway Low Prices. Always".

I'm only saying what England and other nations would most likely do--I'm neither approving nor condemning their hypothetical action.

Arguments can be made either way. The so-called "slave labor" in China is partly real, but partly hype. The fact is that Chinese wages, working and living conditions are improving, mainly due to international trade. Sanctions keeping them poor would also keep slavery profitable, relatively speaking. Nevertheless, if your conscience moves you to boycott Chinese-produced goods, I certainly don't dispute your absolute right to shop accordingly.

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mfree

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2007, 06:19:55 AM »
Well, I know I wouldn't have done much "back then"... I'd have been dead by the time I was out of toddlerhood.

Thor

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2007, 06:47:11 AM »
Another thing is that Lincoln never prosecuted any of the war criminals from the Union. They were essentially given a free pass. Look up the history of Camp Douglas in Illinois for starters. Then, there's always Sherman and his troops.
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jnojr

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2007, 02:29:16 PM »
Assuming that preserving the Union was a good thing and most would agree that it was

Who would, or could, argue any such thing?

The Southern states did exactly the same thing as the Thirteen Colonies in 1776... declared their independence from a distant, foreign government that did not truly represent their interests, and formed their own government.

"Preserving the Union" did nothing more than enslave millions of people then, and countless people from future generations.  I am today subject to an overbearing government that has shrugged off most of the chains that were intended to bind it because of Lincoln.  I am forced to relinquish approximately half of my income to government or face imprisonment and bankruptcy because of him.  I cannot truly own property (property taxes) because of the course he set this nation on.

We were supposed to be a federal republic, not one giant all-inclusive nation where all men bent a knee to Washington D.C. and Lincoln stole that from us.  He was a the worst kind of tyrant... the type that committed his tyranny in perfect confidence that he was right, and that any who disagreed with him was a traitor.

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2007, 07:14:16 PM »
Your ability to know what I would have done is uncanny

Ok, while we are getting seriously off-topic why do you think the "you" back then would be even remotely similar to who you are today?  I think what jfruser might be getting at is not clairvoyance but rather that chances that someone would be a militant abolitionist were extremely small.
Bingo.

John Brown is known because he was exceptional, an actual militant abolitionist.  Most went down with him.
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roo_ster

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Joe Demko

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2007, 03:00:01 AM »
Right.  Since there were relatively few militant abolitionists, it's impossible for anybody else to have been one. rolleyes  Sometimes, the groupthink here is appalling.
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Iain

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2007, 03:49:35 AM »
eh. the delete button is gone.
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Glock Glockler

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2007, 04:20:05 AM »
Right.  Since there were relatively few militant abolitionists, it's impossible for anybody else to have been one.   Sometimes, the groupthink here is appalling

The only thing a hypothetical question tells someone is how the person asked the hypothetical question would answer, not what they'd actually do.  That's why I take your assertion that you'd be a militant abolitionist with a grain of salt, who we are is in large part shaped by our experiences, and being born and raised in a very different society with vastly different experiences will make a different person. 

The "you" raised in the 1800s might have been a militant abolitionist but Vegas doesn't give it good odds. 

Hugh Damright

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Re: Anyone else here a Lincoln critic?
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2007, 05:19:58 AM »
I'm not surprised that someone who thinks he would have been a militant abolitionist imagines that he would have been living in some lily white State.

I think of it like this ... if I was on an island with 100 people, and one of them was an ignorant slave who had no voice, I would probably feel like he should have a voice, because it wouldn't have any impact on matters, and it would make us all feel good about ourselves ... but if I was on an island with 100 people, and 60 of them were ignorant slaves who had no voice, I would probably feel like treating everyone equally would be idiotic, because I would not want my island controlled by ignorant slaves ... and if the people from the lily white island said that we had to treat everyone equal on our 40% white island, or they would kill us, I would probably see little choice but to defend our island against their jihad.