Author Topic: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test  (Read 3564 times)

Warren

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2007, 09:50:05 PM »
Here is one view.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig7/crovelli5.html


 

On the western outskirts of Denver, Colorado, a two-lane highway connects the town of Golden, (of Coors renown), with the town of Boulder. The highway winds through miles of mostly-uninhabited rolling hills, past the city dump, and past the notoriously-polluted and now closed Rocky Flats Nuclear Weapons Plant. At the most windswept and isolated point along this highway, and directly adjacent to the Rocky Flats Nuclear facility, stands a completely isolated roadhouse called the Rocky Flats Lounge. Despite its extreme isolation and the loss of its customer base at the Rocky Flats Nuclear facility, the Rocky Flats Lounge continues to draw many loyal patrons, due in large part to its hospitality to bikers and Green Bay Packers fans.

When driving past the Rocky Flats Lounge, one cannot help being struck by the fact that its location is extremely conducive to drunk driving. Imbibing customers must drive at least fifteen minutes in either direction to get to civilization of any kind, and taxis are almost nonexistent in the area. I have driven past the Rocky Flats Lounge hundreds of times, and Ive always wondered whether its patrons were driving under the influence on the same highway with me.

In the years before I came to understand anything about economics, I would think to myself as I drove past this bar, "How can the State allow them to have a liquor license, when its so obvious that their customers will have to drive home drunk on this dangerous highway?" Not knowing anything about economics, I understandably only sought for a proximate solution to this problem. The more I studied economics, however, the more my view of the matter changed, to the point where I now think to myself as I drive past the Rocky Flats Lounge, "Drunk driving should be legalized, so that the customers of the Rocky Flats Lounge can get home safely."

I came to this realization, in the first place, because I couldnt figure out why drunk drivers on this highway didnt choose to slow down. I imagined that if I were a drunk driver on this highway, I would want to slow down to make sure I didnt fly off the highway or get into a fiery crash with another car. Why were the drunk drivers not doing this?

It then occurred to me that I wasnt thinking about the costs of drunk driving in the right way, because I was only considering one cost of drunk driving. Under our current drunk driving laws, however, there is an additional cost that every drunk driver is certainly aware of; namely, getting caught drunk driving. The drunk driver is thus faced with two serious costs to consider: 1) dying in a fiery crash, and 2) getting caught by the police and going to jail. The cost of getting caught drunk driving and going to jail, moreover, is drastically increased if the driver chooses to drive in a manner that draws attention to himself  like driving ten miles per hour  even if the driver knows that driving slowly is the safer thing to do.

So, the drunk driver is faced with the following choices: 1) drive slowly and safely, and almost certainly get arrested and go to jail for drunk driving, or 2) drive the speed limit, and have a decent chance of not getting arrested, although this increases ones chances of getting in an accident. Understandably, many drunk drivers choose the latter alternative, simply because the chance of arrest and jail time is a certainty, whereas the chance of a fiery crash is only a distant risk. (If you think my reasoning here is unsound, ask yourself whether youve ever driven 80 miles per hour because youre running late for a meeting, believing that the certain costs of being late outweigh the increased, though distant, costs associated with driving faster). In other words, the prohibition of drunk driving actually serves to increase unsafe driving practices, simply because drunk drivers dont want to go to jail, and are, consequently, unwilling to drive slower than the speed limit.

Even more importantly, these costs make drunk driving at the speed limit even more likely the more times a man was arrested for drunk driving. If a man already has a DUI, then the next DUI he gets will carry a much more severe penalty. Given this even stiffer penalty, he is even less likely to slow down and drive safely, because the costs of getting caught are so much higher.

This problem cannot be solved, moreover, simply by getting rid of speed limits, (although, to be sure, speed limits are totally arbitrary, and ought indeed to be completely abolished for this reason alone). Getting rid of speed limits would only encourage drunk drivers to drive even faster so that they can get off the road even faster to avoid a drunk driving arrest.

Imagine, on the other hand, that drunk driving was totally legalized. The costs for the average drunk driver would alter dramatically, because the only serious cost he would have to consider and avoid is getting into a fiery crash, and going to jail for negligent manslaughter or murder. The average drunk driver would no longer have to race along at the speed limit, nervously eyeing his rear view mirror, anxiously trying to avoid arrest. He would simply slow down to make sure he didnt get into an accident. This conclusion holds irrespective of the fact that more people would probably choose to drive drunk if it were legalized.

I am not suggesting that manslaughter, assault, or murder be legalized. On the contrary, drunk drivers like everyone else ought to be forced to pay restitution to the victims of their negligent behavior, if it results in injury or property damage. But, there is absolutely no reason to think that a drunk driver going five, or even twenty, miles per hour is any more dangerous than, say, eighty-nine year old Aunt Jenny, screaming down the highway in her Cadillac at 75 miles per hour. Nor can we simply assume that he is any more dangerous than Billy Bob, driving his 18-wheeler down I-80 at 80 miles per hour without sleeping for five days. Yet no one thinks it should be the law that Aunt Jenny or Billy Bob ought to be arrested, jailed, and fined for having chosen to drive under these conditions. Aunt Jenny or Billy Bob are only punished if they hurt somebody, and this is precisely the same standard that should govern drunk driving.

Imagine, however, that we were to attempt to prohibit "driving while tired." Under current U.S. law, people are allowed to drive while tired, and many people who know they are tired slow down to compensate for their slower reactions. If we prohibited driving while tired, however, every tired person in America would make sure he didnt drive slower than the speed limit, or otherwise draw attention to himself. What would be the result? The answer is, of course, that tired people would get into both more accidents and more serious accidents, because they would have been goaded by the law into driving faster than they otherwise would have voluntarily.

My argument here notwithstanding, I wouldnt hold my breath for the day that drunk driving laws are abolished  no matter how much more dangerous they make our highways. Until then, we just have to keep our eyes peeled for the many dangerous drunk drivers on the road whose gas pedals are being artificially pressed by drunk driving laws.

March 30, 2007

Mark R. Crovelli [send him mail] is a graduate student in the department of political science at the University of Colorado, Boulder.

Len Budney

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2007, 02:44:35 AM »
Great essay.

John Seymour, an English author and hero to "self-sufficiency" types everywhere, recommends owning a pony and cart. That way, when you leave the pubs smashed, you can take a nap in the cart; the pony knows the way home, and will get you there eventually.

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Tecumseh

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2007, 01:07:33 PM »
We should penalize people on cell phones and CD radios who talk while driving.  It has been shown that it is just as dangerous to talk on a cell phone while driving as it is to be drunk and driving.  I could only imagine it is the same for radios.  Thus shutting down the trucking industry, the police radio car, and fire departments.

Lets go at it.

By the way I believe that we should amend the constitution so that the right to travel is guaranteed.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2007, 04:24:19 PM »
"It has been shown that it is just as dangerous to talk on a cell phone while driving as it is to be drunk and driving."

where was this proven?  and by whom?

SkunkApe

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2007, 06:42:03 PM »
The DUI exception to the Constitution:

http://www.duiblog.com/2005/05/09#a162



The hyperbole and tortured 'logic' on that page are off the scale. Forget about Islamic extremism, a nuclear Iran or North Korea, MADD is the greatest single threat to our freedoms?

There is no Constutionally protected 'right' to drive.  Driving is a privilege you accept SUBJECT TO CERTAIN CONDITIONS.  You don't want to be subject to those conditions?  Fine, don't drive.  It's that simple.

Thanks for reading the article, Riley.

And yes, I consider MADD, and those who would sacrifice my personal liberties and constitutional rights for perceived safety a greater threat than I do the latest government-created bogey man.

There may or may not be a "right to drive", but there are rights regarding probable cause, self-incrimination, a right to review the evidence present against one's self, and a right to be protected from unreasonable search and seizure.  Well...there used to be.

Malum prohibitum, mala in se?

By these thousand cuts, men like you kill the republic.  Please reconsider.






Perd Hapley

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2007, 06:46:57 PM »
Driving on public roads is a privilege you accept SUBJECT TO CERTAIN CONDITIONS.  You don't want to be subject to those conditions?  Fine, don't drive on public roads.  It's that simple.

Slight fix. 
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Len Budney

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2007, 07:42:41 PM »
Driving on public roads is a privilege you accept SUBJECT TO CERTAIN CONDITIONS.  You don't want to be subject to those conditions?  Fine, don't drive on public roads.  It's that simple.

Slight fix. 

Careful: you're dangerously close to being labeled a "moonbat."

--Len.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #32 on: November 08, 2007, 08:10:57 PM »
Dangerously close?   laugh  Look up some of my previous posts over the last couple of years.  I've been labeled a whole lot worse.   smiley


I actually used to be more of a third-party extremist type.  But at the ripe old age of thirty and one, I've outgrown that sort of thing.  Still might vote third-party or independent this coming election, though.  It don't look good.   sad
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Sindawe

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2007, 08:33:35 PM »
Quote
Imbibing customers must drive at least fifteen minutes in either direction to get to civilization of any kind...

Horse-pucky.  Boulder and Louisville are both w/in 10 minutes of the Rocky Flats Lounge at the posted speed limits.

Quote
political science

Ahhh...that explains it.  PolySci at CU could not tell time with talking clock.
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

HankB

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2007, 05:11:54 AM »
I have no sympathy for people who drive while drunk, but oppose the "zero tolerance" people who want to throw the book at someone with BAC of 0.00001%.

I can have a couple of beers with dinner and not be anywhere NEAR the BAC limit of 0.08 . . . in fact, I'd have to down a six pack to put myself over . . . and if I did that, I'd already have my hangover, I wouldn't have to wait until morning.

I'm just not a very practiced drunk.  angel

On the other hand, I really don't see how people can drive at 3 or even 4 times the legal BAC limit . . . if I drank that much, I wouldn't even be able to find my car, much less enter it, start it, and attempt to drive it.
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Firethorn

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Re: DUI - an arbitrary standard and, now revealed, an inaccurate test
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2007, 05:33:35 AM »
On the other hand, I really don't see how people can drive at 3 or even 4 times the legal BAC limit . . . if I drank that much, I wouldn't even be able to find my car, much less enter it, start it, and attempt to drive it.

They busted a guy from base for DUI* over the weekend.  Our commander mentioned that his BAC was 'Over .2'.  He was driving over things and running into stuff - the cops caught him and busted him downtown.

Fact is, an experienced drinker with a BAC under .08 generally isn't impaired enough to tell him from the general(sober) population.  Most can even do it at .1.  Most injury accidents I hear about alcohol being a factor are way above .1, all the way to 'Medics wonder why this guy wasn't in a coma or dead, much less driving'.

*This is really sucking right now, we've already had a number more DUIs than we had all of last year.  The leadership is pissed.  I hardly ever drink, so I feel like I'm being punished not only for something I didn't do, but am incredibly unlikely to do.  Heck, our unit hasn't had any DUIs for over a year, and we had a 3 year record before that idiot(who I didn't even know).