Author Topic: Feed Africa today create terrorists tomorrow?  (Read 3413 times)

telewinz

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Feed Africa today create terrorists tomorrow?
« on: July 03, 2005, 01:47:06 PM »
It's not nice and it doesn't leave a person with a warm "feel good" emotion but cancelling Africa's debts won't prevent the survivors from spawning increased revolution in the future in Africa and abroad.  Tough decision for Bush.
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stevelyn

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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2005, 04:10:30 PM »
Most African countries' problems are self-inflicted. Let'em starve.
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Standing Wolf

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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2005, 04:25:01 PM »
Welfare produces state dependents. International welfare produces international state dependents.
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TarpleyG

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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2005, 05:05:11 PM »
You all realize that if these indigant people in Africa stopped breeding like the human population was going extinct, they wouldn't be in poverty to begin with.  I say let 'em fix their own damn problems.  We got enough starving people here if you just gotta hand food out to someone.

Greg

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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2005, 07:04:10 PM »
Let's just re-cap here folks...

How much money were we sending that way?

I don't remember the exact number, but it was enough to make me frown when I heard it on the radio.  

Almost upset me as much as hearing we have around $10 Billion floating around Iraq that's unaccounted for.  Nobody knows what happened to it, yeah, right...
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2005, 07:22:07 PM »
What is it I am always thinking?  Hmmm - what about gettin' one's own house in order!!! ............ Sad
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Pb

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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2005, 05:57:03 AM »
Africa is in horrible shape because their governments are corrupt and torn by warfare.  Did the USA have mass starvation when we had a very high birthrate?

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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2005, 06:50:33 AM »
I'll echo some of the sentiments here.  African countries are not in bad shape because of heavy debt.  They are in heavy debt because their governments are corrupt and lawless.  Cancelling debts for someplace like Zimbabwe will just guarantee they will be in WORSE shape a few years down the road because now they now the west will pay their bills for them.
Over-population is a self-correcting problem.  As the standard of living rises birth rates go down.
But without rule of law these places will never improve.  That is where the focus needs to be, not on handing out even more money.
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Preacherman

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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2005, 07:04:38 AM »
Folks, I'm sorry to have to say this, but your replies demonstrate an appaling ignorance about Africa and the state of that continent.  Being an African born and bred, despite my Caucasian race, let me point out a few facts.

First, Africa was politically and socially "backward", in First World terms, until the so-called Scramble for Africa during the second half of the 19th century.  During the Scramble, it was carved up among various colonial powers, all of whom wanted Africa's mineral and agricultural wealth for themselves, and couldn't have cared less about actually building up a strong Africa.  To further their aims, all of them tried to ensure that African people would provide a low-cost workforce for their mines and plantations.  They were not interested in educating Africans, nor in developing their skills in areas such as government, administration, etc.  Brutality and repression were the norm.  The worst example was probably the Belgian Congo, which was originally King Leopold's private preserve, and where at least 3 million people were killed by colonial authorities before the area was handed over to Belgian government control (the records of the King's administration were sealed before handover, and have never been fully published).  The beginnings of the notorious apartheid policies of South Africa were instituted, not by the Afrikaners, but by the British colonial authorities, who imposed a cash-payment-only "hut tax" and "head tax" in order to force Blacks to work in the mines or industries - the only places that would pay them in the cash required to pay the tax.  I could go on for pages, but you get the idea...

During the First World War, the German colonies in Africa were invaded and taken over by other colonial powers, with the assistance of their existing colonies in the region.  You thus had local Africans seeing that their interests didn't really matter to anybody - military power was the only thing of importance.  The same happened in World War Two with the Italian colonies in Somalia, Abyssinia, Libya, etc. and the French colonies as well:  military take-overs of these places, often using local African troops to support the invaders from Europe and America.

By the end of World War Two, you had a broad-based movement against colonialism all over the world, including Africa.  However, unlike the rest of the world, Africa retained a tribal and traditional system of government based on collusion with colonial authority.  Tribal chiefs were paid a stipend by the colonial government, and in return were supposed to keep their people subservient to colonial interests.  Anyone challenging the colonial powers would typically be imprisoned or deported as a "troublemaker".  There were virtually no efforts to prepare locals for administration or political power:  for example, when Mozambique became independent of Portugal, as late as 1975, there was precisely one tribal University graduate in the entire nation!

So, entire nations became independent without any group of skilled or educated politicians, administrators, etc.  Coupled with this, you had all of the pressures of the Cold War.  Both the US and USSR paid vast amounts in bribes to politicians all over the continent to gain their support at the United Nations, block the other side's interests, etc.  As an example, it's estimated that the late President Mobutu amassed a personal fortune of over $3 billion while in power, aided and encouraged in doing so by Western powers who saw Zaire as a bulwark against Communism.  His country was used by the CIA as a base for operations against Communist insurgencies in other countries, such as Angola.  Foreign aid was basically a bribe paid to "friendly" governments by both sides, nothing more - it certainly never reached the people who needed it most.  Military aid was more common than other forms of aid, despite Africa's poverty, and today there are probably more assault weapons per capita in Africa than in any other continent.  Wars were fought across Africe, often fostered - and armed - by the major powers, to destabilize the "bad guys" - my own experiences in the Angolan War are a good example of this, where we had the CIA arming two factions, and encouraging (and paying) South Africa to intervene, while Moscow armed the other faction, and flew in thousands of Cuban troops to help the other side.  Another example is Somalia, where initially the Soviet Union armed the country and bribed the rulers to help them to control maritime traffic around the Horn of Africa into the Red Sea.  When Ethiopia came under a military dictatorship, the Soviets changed sides, and supported that former-US-client-state, whereupon the US changed sides and supported the former-USSR-client-state of Somalia.  The two nations fought a destabilizing and devastating war, which Somalia lost, and began the long slide into social degeneracy and anarchy which led to US and UN intervention there in the 1990's (with results we all know - and instability which continues to this day).

The results of these (and many other) conflicts are still going on today.  As you can imagine, none of this did anything at all to encourage responsible government, or to educate politicians and administrators, or to inculcate habits of social stability...

So, when you look at Africa's misery, it's real easy to see all the corruption, nepotism, inefficiency, etc. that dominates African governments.  However, be honest about it:  their former colonial masters gave them a heck of an example to live up to - grab all you can, while you can, then get the hell out of there.  They never had any education or training for government, and were slapped down in colonial days if they tried to get any influence.  It's no wonder things are as bad as they are in Africa:  the whole continent is basically in a medieval period, politically speaking, and is only just beginning to emerge into its version of the Renaissance.  They could have been much further along, if they'd had even the most basic help from their colonial masters, but this was never provided.

Sure, each individual is responsible for his/her own sins, and those now ruling in Africa will have to answer for their misdeeds.  However, they come from a background virtually guaranteed to produce them, or others like them, as the only rulers available.  Saying that we should let their people starve because of the corruption, immorality and incompetence of their rulers is like saying we should let Chicago starve because they've got Mayor Daley at their head.
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2005, 07:21:59 AM »
Preacherman,
I dont know what point you are making.  Even if everything you wrote is true, so what?  Are you  preaching Western Guilt that needs atonement through cancellation of debt?
China, India, Pakistan,Vietnam, Thailand, Hong Kong, Singapore, Mexico, Brazil, etc etc were all colonies of European powers at one time or another.  All of them went through a decolonization period and all of them, more or less, are in much better shape economically and politically than almost any country in Africa.
Are you going to argue that cancellation of debt will help anyone in Africa outside of the tin pot dictators?
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Ron

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Feed Africa today create terrorists tomorrow?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2005, 07:55:47 AM »
Not knowing much about the subject I have a question.

Is the cancellation of debt tied to any democratic/political reforms or is it just a gift?

The Rabbi

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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2005, 08:04:53 AM »
It appears to be just a gift.
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Werewolf

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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2005, 08:22:19 AM »
As usual someone has to claim it is all the white man's fault. Hell let's just wipe out all the white folk and all the problems of the world would go away.

No seriously I mean it - kill 'em all. Then the left overs can go back to hunter gatherer times, fry in the summer, freeze in the winter, always wonder where their next meal is coming from and enjoy the pleasure of watching 2/3 of their children die before the age of 5.

Yep - that's paradise alright. Damned white folk - screwed up the world royally. Yep the planet would be a better place without the evil caucasian devils.
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roo_ster

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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2005, 08:22:45 AM »
Kim duToit has a good esay on Africa:
http://www.kimdutoit.com/ee/index.php/essays/let_africa_sink/

IMO, abrogating Africa's debt will not help.  It will only raise my taxes some bit.

I would put forth the position that providing african dictators with newly rehabilitated credit lines will do more har than good.  Do you think the likes of Robert Mugabe will use that credit to help lift his country out of the muck of barbarity?

Once these countries get their act together and institute the institutions of civilized countries OF THEIR OWN ACCORD, any direct gov't to gov't aid will be harmful and aid on a more micro scale will be ineffective...as the institutions that could preserve such micro-progress do not yet exist.

BTW, Africa's population problem is being "solved" by AIDS.

Sometimes all you can do is try to keep such cjhaos contained and from hurting other non-psychotic countries.
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Preacherman

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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2005, 08:38:23 AM »
Rabbi, you said:
Quote
I dont know what point you are making.
The point was in the last paragraph:
Quote
Saying that we should let their people starve because of the corruption, immorality and incompetence of their rulers is like saying we should let Chicago starve because they've got Mayor Daley at their head.
It's very easy to look at the African situation, throw one's hands in the air, and walk away.  As Kim du Toit says in his essay linked above:
Quote
The viciousness, the cruelty, the corruption, the duplicity, the savagery, and the incompetence is endemic to the entire continent, and is so much of an anathema to any right-thinking person that the civilized imagination simply stalls when faced with its ubiquity, and with the enormity of trying to fix it.  The Western media shouldnt even bother reporting on it.  All that does is arouse our feelings of horror, and the instinctive need to do something, anything--but everything has been tried before, and failed.  Everything, of course, except self-reliance.
I actually agree with many of Kim's points - he and I come from the same country, and I experienced many of the same things he mentions in his essay.

However, one's fundamental approach says a lot.  Mine is that "every man's death diminishes me, because I am a part of mankind" (kudos to those of you who recognize the quote).  It's not good enough, to me, to say that because African governments are corrupt, their people should be left to starve.  There are many practical ways of assisting which bypass and/or minimize government corruption, using well-respected NGO's such as Médecins Sans Frontières, etc.  Government-to-Government aid can be much better targeted, and can have stringent requirements built in (such as joint administration of funds, payments only to recognized contractors on a work-completed basis, etc.) which minimize opportunities for misuse of funds.  What is important is to realize that doing what donors have done in the past - throwing money blindly at a continent - is not going to work.  It will require a greater investment of time and talent on the part of donors to bear any sort of worthwhile fruit.  To me, that investment is worthwhile, rather than stand back while millions die.  I guess it's not worth it to some others.
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stevelyn

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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2005, 09:07:37 AM »
Seems to me that most African nations would be better off under colonial rule of European powers. They certainly couldn't be any worse.
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Zundfolge

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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2005, 09:34:24 AM »
Quote
Saying that we should let their people starve because of the corruption, immorality and incompetence of their rulers is like saying we should let Chicago starve because they've got Mayor Daley at their head.
Sounds like a good idea to me.

Better yet I say we arm Africans (and Chicagoans) to fight their oppressors Smiley

grampster

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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2005, 10:52:19 AM »
Brutal savage despots + Tribal feudalism  + Religions that worship idols, animals, and practice the dark arts + stone age medicine + No private property rights + no understanding of human rights and natural law + sexual reckless abandon  = Chaotic 3rd world misery.

So cancel their debt and all that goes away.

Yeah, sure.

Probably another 150 years of private charitable effort, coupled with reasonable tax support of those efforts (rather than giving the support to the corrupt "leaders" in the 3rd world) there might be a shift into the light for the "dark" continent.

An alternative would be to shift ALL of our efforts from Africa and rather direct it south into Mexico, Central and South America.  If Americal would direct it's vision into our own hemisphere, we could leave W. Europe, Africa, E. Europe, Mid East and the East to their own devices.  Anybody wishing to join the Pan American hegomony would be welcome as long as they would embrace a constitutional republican form of government that holds the rule of law, human and property rights to be foundational.
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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2005, 10:57:20 AM »
Short of a cure - in another 50 years AIDS will have solved the problem. Darwin has a way of fixing most things given the time.
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toro

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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2005, 11:20:48 AM »
Zimbabwe's white face a bleak outlook
By Joseph Winter
BBC News Online   Year 2,000.
 
 As ever, Zimbabwe's land reform programme is mired in confusion.

But it does seem likely that Monday's deadline is a major step towards President Robert Mugabe's goal of redistributing farmland from whites to blacks. People are making the rules up as they go along
 
Jenni Williams, CFU  
The white-dominated Commercial Farmers' Union says that 2,900 of its members are obliged by the law to stop farming immediately.

However, a CFU official who wished to remain anonymous told BBC News Online that the true figure was closer to 2,000 as the remaining 900 farmers have only received preliminary notices of the government's intention to acquire their farms.

And Agriculture Minister Joseph Made has been quoted as saying that only 10% of farmers are affected - around 300.

Lawyers are busy trying to interpret the legislation but they too all have their interpretations.

Thick skins

So far, many of the farmers are carrying on with their work as what passes for normal on Zimbabwe's farms.

They have developed thick skins in the past two years and many will probably wait until the police start taking action before they park their combine harvesters for good.

White farmers  
2,900 must stop farming
500 have given up land
One court case won by the government
95% of white-owned farms listed for acquisition
CFU membership down by 30%
Source: CFU  

But as before, President Robert Mugabe's militant supporters may not wait for the authorities before they take matters into their own hands.

"We're living in a climate where people are making the rules up as they go along," CFU spokeswoman Jenni Williams told BBC News Online.

On top of the breakdown of law and order in Zimbabwe's farming districts, the confusion stems from the numerous changes made to the Land Acquisition Act and the complex procedures set out before the government can acquire a farm.

Complex procedures

But whatever the precise number of farms affected, this is a major intensification of the land reform programme.

Since 2, the government has taken over around 500 farms - and these were given up to the government by their owners, a farmers' representative told BBC News Online.

 Mugabe based his election campaign on land reform
 
Monday's deadline comes from the latest change to the law, made last month, which attempted to simplify matters and bypass legal procedures.

Most farmers who have received official notices that the government intends to acquire their land have appealed to the courts.

A CFU official said that the government had only won one case - largely because the civil servants were not meeting the series of legal deadlines set out in law.

And even that case has gone to appeal.

No haggling

But while the majority of Zimbabwe's white farmers are still able to work, many have already started packing their bags.

Membership of the CFU has already slumped by 30% - to 3,200 from 4,500 just two years ago.

Our members may not be happy with what they've got but they have got something
 
CFU official  

"We're anticipating another big drop this year," said the CFU official.

But amidst the confusion, many people will be surprised to hear that some of those who have given up their land have been paid for it.

The farmers have said from the beginning that they would be willing to let go of their land if they receive adequate compensation.

President Robert Mugabe has repeatedly promised to pay for improvements such as buildings and irrigation systems - but not for the soil itself.

And this money has been forthcoming, according to the CFU.

"Our members may not be happy with what they've got but they have got something," the official said.

He said that many did not try to haggle with the government because the value of the Zimbabwe dollar is falling so sharply that they would just lose out even more through any further delay.  

{How many white farmers have been murdered altogether?  Sad situation.}
 


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The Rabbi

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« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2005, 01:05:15 PM »
Quote
However, one's fundamental approach says a lot.  Mine is that "every man's death diminishes me, because I am a part of mankind" (kudos to those of you who recognize the quote).  It's not good enough, to me, to say that because African governments are corrupt, their people should be left to starve.  There are many practical ways of assisting which bypass and/or minimize government corruption, using well-respected NGO's such as Médecins Sans Frontières, etc.  Government-to-Government aid can be much better targeted, and can have stringent requirements built in (such as joint administration of funds, payments only to recognized contractors on a work-completed basis, etc.) which minimize opportunities for misuse of funds.  What is important is to realize that doing what donors have done in the past - throwing money blindly at a continent - is not going to work.  It will require a greater investment of time and talent on the part of donors to bear any sort of worthwhile fruit.  To me, that investment is worthwhile, rather than stand back while millions die.  I guess it's not worth it to some others.
Preacherman, the quotation is from Richard NIxon, I recognized it right away.

The experience in Somalia suggests the opposite of what you say.  There, the presence of NGOs actually made the situation worse.  They were bringing is supplies but had no way to safeguard them so they became fodder in the different factions' wars on each other.  Finally even the NGOs realized the futility and left.
Lack of money is the least problem there.  More money will thus not solve anything.  Africa is plagued with: lack of integrity in government, lack of infrastructure to deliver supplies, lack of education to crease infrastructure or anything else, lack of national self-identity (in many places), and I could go on and on.
Short of recolonization and imposing order and discipline (which could be done only at great cost) I do not see any productive contact that can come through aid of any kind.  Even free trade, which I wholeheartedly support, will have only minimal effect.  I see little alternative to throwing up our hands, going away, and coming back in 20 years to see if things have maybe gotten better.
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Preacherman

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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2005, 01:45:53 PM »
Nixon???  Rabbi, I think that you're due for a more radical circumcision...

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Iain

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« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2005, 02:11:56 PM »
Heard a former adviser to Reagan say - on the subject of Bush and his Africa visit couple of years back - that the best thing that America can do for Africa, particularly West Africa, is cut out the cotton subsidies.

I'd imagine the same goes for the EU and it's agricultural subsidies and rigged internal market.

Funny, I'm no Bob Geldof, but I am sure am glad I'm not as cynical as some of you.
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Standing Wolf

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« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2005, 04:36:30 PM »
Quote
Saying that we should let their people starve because of the corruption, immorality and incompetence of their rulers is like saying we should let Chicago starve because they've got Mayor Daley at their head.
Only Africans can solve the African problem. My hunch is that if enough of them get hungry enough, they'll overthrow their rulers; until then, ever bit of so-called "assistance" we send them merely prolongs the misery.

As long as you give money to drunks, they keep on drinking. As long as you keep on giving money to despots, they keep on being despots.
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telewinz

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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2005, 04:50:07 PM »
China as mentioned was very much in the same shape as Africa today.  China solved their own "problem" but it took alot of bloodshed.  Africa has shed blood for decades yet no tangible solution or end is in sight.  It's a "black hole" for compassion and relief just "good money after bad".  I can remember what public opinion was like when it came time to bale New York City out from backruptcy...it wasn't pretty and they are Americans!  I'm willing to compromise.  Forgive their debt but no more loans or aid.  They live or die on their own hook.  No one would notice or care anyhow.  They don't have any rich oil deposits do they?  If so then thats a different story and I'm willing to help my brother anytime!
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