Author Topic: Umm guys...the government is being naughty  (Read 21251 times)

De Selby

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #75 on: November 11, 2007, 12:01:35 PM »
Let's just point out what Len is doing repeatedly.

I say "extremists". He makes that out as if I said "all Muslims" with his rebuttal.

I say "radical Islam". He makes that into that I said "Islam".

You know, that particular strawman is getting really old, and really annoying. Knock it off, Len, or all of your arguments aren't worth spit.



Could you tell us who some regular Muslims are then?  Which groups of Muslims should not face persecution and disruption of their civil liberties?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2007, 12:04:28 PM »
shootinstudent, your red herrings, strawmen, and deliberate obfuscation, any means you can use to defend the extremists are beyond responding to. It's useless. Any rational argument will be chewed up by you, give a dose of CAIR-style distortion, and spit back out completely skewed.

So I'm not even bothering with you anymore. Go work for CAIR's public relations or something.

Oh, and this:
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There hasn't been a single Al Qaeda attack on a mall or similar location in America.  In contrast, there have been more attacks on schools and malls committed by American (non Muslim) gun owners than I can count.  So why don't you focus your preparedness on the more real and obvious threat?

Seems to me like you're fixating on a group that presents no realistic threat to you because they're different, and ignoring the proven threat because they're more similar to you.

That really did it. I now consider you a member of the enemy, one of their propaganda agents, wittingly or unwittingly. I don't care. But nothing you say has meaning to me any more than a Tokyo Rose broadcast would have meaning to people in WWII.

De Selby

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2007, 12:10:59 PM »
Manedwolf,

See what I mean? You allege that you're only talking about one group of Muslims, but any statement at all in support of Muslims generally is bad, and you won't name any specific group of Muslims that you think doesn't deserve to be treated differently.

Instead of just alleging that I got you all wrong, feel free to point out how exactly I distorted your views, and what I got wrong.  I certainly don't think I misrepresented your position at all, and I think those were pretty reasonable questions that I asked.

Challenging your quick jump to support anything that infringes on the rights of Muslims in America is not support for terrorism, nor is pointing out that your fantasy of stopping Jihadists at the mall is extremely unlikely.  I think you are letting your ideologies and fixations get in the way of the facts here-and it is a fact that mall shootings and school shootings are almost exclusively carried out by non-Muslim Americans. 

But apparently pointing out the facts is just "propaganda", and makes me a "member of the enemy."  When basic facts are your enemy, you should probably reconsider your friends.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2007, 12:22:33 PM »
Let's just point out what Len is doing repeatedly.  I say "extremists". He makes that out as if I said "all Muslims" with his rebuttal.  I say "radical Islam". He makes that into that I said "Islam".

Read more carefully. There are a billion Muslims out there; I'm only talking about the ten percent that you have claimed are stealthily plotting our ruin. You can tell because I keep citing the number 120,000,, which is exactly 10% of the world's Muslims. It doesn't take a math degree to realize that 10% is not "all."

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Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2007, 12:29:25 PM »
shootinstudent, your red herrings, strawmen, and deliberate obfuscation, any means you can use to defend the extremists are beyond responding to. It's useless... So I'm not even bothering with you anymore...

Maned, Shootinstudent asked you to give a single example of a "good *let's not go there* Muslim," in support of your claim that you aren't against them all. That you can't give a single example, but instead throw up your hands in despair, says a lot. As he correctly says, any nice word about any Muslims anywhere and you come back alleging a plot to institute sharia law in the US.

The absurdity is especially obvious in my case. As a Hebrew-speaking, pro-Israel Christian, I have my biases--and none of them lean me toward Islam. I take my position because Christ teaches me to condemn the slaughter of the innocent, not because I have any ax to grind on behalf of Iraqis, Arabs or Muslims in general.

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #80 on: November 11, 2007, 12:38:52 PM »
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Who is Johnny Jihad? Does he live in a racist fantasy world with Robby Cracker ,Paco Beaner, Joe Darky, and Chen the Chink?


It's pretty obvious he was referring to a terrorist, and was not using that as a racial slur.  OBVIOUS.   rolleyes
Nope. He was using a religious term to describe a Muslim in a general sense along the belief that they all want to kill us. If he meant any terrorist black or white, Jew or Muslim, he would have just said terrorist.


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Barbara

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #81 on: November 11, 2007, 01:23:05 PM »
Tell you what..since nearly all rapists are men, I'd say we'd better do some more in-depth research into the habits of all men. I mean, I know, there are probably some good ones out there, but really, where is the outrage each time another little girl is sodomized and buried alive? Where is the marching in the street or newspaper ads from all the men who claim they wouldn't do that kind of thing? Supposedly only a small number of the millions of men in this country do that kind of thing, but from what I can see, you can't trust any of them.

We really need to control these people before things get worse. I know, it seems unfair on the surface to violate their civil rights, but its all in the name of safety.

You can say that's an unfair analogy, but from where I'm sitting, it seems dead on.

Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #82 on: November 11, 2007, 01:57:23 PM »
Well, yes, I have known a few muslims. Including a member of the Saud family...
 
And it's a big ol' thing too...

I also have known snake-handlin' christians, televangelists, and all manner of bottom feeders.

It all boils down to the fact that you hate the current establishment so much that you are making endless excuses for a group which would like nothing better than to saw your head off with a rusty knife.

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Kyle

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #83 on: November 11, 2007, 02:09:29 PM »
Ok, my .02

I have traditionaly been mostly in the Len camp of American-Muslim relations. I read and try to understand the Koran (not an easy feat), I have had plenty of muslim friends, I was in a romantic relationship with a moderately religious Pakistani Muslim woman for almost 2 years in the beginning of my college career, etc.

I have been of the opinion that in certain areas of the world, Muslim populations are very radical. In others, they are really normal people. Especialy in the U.S., I have argued that the vast majority of Muslims here like living here and have no "religious problem" with America, and are fine and upstanding people just like most Americans.

However, over the course of the last year or so, I have been noticing a really disturbing trend. American Muslims, namely the ones in my age group 18-25 are going through some changes.

I know several sets of arab Muslim sisters; one sister wears hijab, the other doesnt. One hangs out with guys, the other doesnt. One will go out to a bar and drink, the other would never touch alcohol. They constantly argue with each other about what is haram (forbidden) in Islam, and how much their religion expects them to do, in contrast to living in a secular society. They are smart and educated people. For the most part, their parents could care less; the appreciate the devout daughter for dressing conservatively, but they dont mind that their other daughter is more secular or integrated into American norms.

My point is, that IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, young, wealthy, educated Muslim men and women in this country are often drawn to radical or fundamentalist Islam. Many of them were born in the US to relatively secular parents. But they see a return to "traditional" Islam as taking their religion and heritage seriously. They look down upon their peers who arent as religious as they are. They attend Muslim youth conventions in Houston and Dallas and Austin, where equal time is given to scholars and imams who preach a religion their parents follow, as they give to scholars and imams who preach a more radical and fundamentalist point of view that many of them are drawn to.

These are not Al Quaeda indoctrination centers. To young Muslims in America, a secularized and modern form of Islam, and a fundamentalist or traditional school of thought are BOTH valid points of view. They debate points of theology passionately and inteligently. They have disagreements about how scripture should be interpreted and applied to daily life; similar to how different sects of Christianity argue over points of faith.

The unfortuate part is, that the fundamentalist or traditional form of Islam being preaced and followed is basicaly Saudi Wahabbi. The events, literature, and speakers are funded by mosques in Saudi. These young American Muslims do not call it Wahabbi, and would strongly disagree with you if you claimed it was, and they are technicaly right. The differences are negligable, however.

These kids are pretty normal. Me and my friends socialize with them, date their more "Americanized" brothers and sisters, etc. However, there is a clear line drawn. It pops up in conversation, sometimes making things very akward and uncomfortable.

Sister 1: I really liked that scholar who talked at the convention this weekend.
Sister 2: You did? I hated him. Did you hear when he said the NYC firefighters who responded to 9/11 should be seen as heroes? What is that?

::uncomfortable silence::

It really came to life when I read a book called Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It describes her experiences as a Muslim woman, the the interworkings of Islamic countries that facilitate the subjugation of women, foster hatred for the West, etc. She also speaks to how the religion ITSELF, taken literaly, facilitates this. This got me thinking, she had lots of valid points.

The most interesting part of her story was that she wrote the film Submission, the film for which Duth director Theo van Gogh was murdered in the streets of Amsrterdam by a Muslim fanatic. She was named as the next target, and went into hiding. She still lives with heavy secuity for her own safety.

The shocker came when I told some of my Muslim friends, particularly the more "traditional" ones about the interesting book I was reading. They recognized the author instantly. Their responses varied, but were uniformly along the same lines:

She deserves to die, I hope they kill her. Any Muslim who speaks out and lies about god and Islam deserves to die.

This has me re-thinking exactly how benign the American Muslim population is. These aren't 3rd world people living in poverty looking for the Great Satan to blame it on. These are young, inteligent, educated and wealthy Americans whose opinions, attitudes, and beliefs like the one above come purely from religion.

Take it for what it's worth. Anecdotal evidence, but this is MY EXPERIENCE as a young man living, studying and working at the University of Texas in SA.

yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #84 on: November 11, 2007, 02:21:29 PM »
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It all boils down to the fact that you hate the current establishment so much that you are making endless excuses for a group which would like nothing better than to saw your head off with a rusty knife.
If these U.S. citizens are part of that group and it can be proven that they are actively planning violence, there is no reason to bug the entire community. If you can prove treason, planned attacks, or monetary support of terrorist activity I say hang em high and put them on display to other scum that they will get the same. If they need to map out the whole neighborhood they have nothing, and are merely grasping at straws. I have no problem with fighting crime (and everything that is defined as terrorism is a crime), but see no reason to do what is being done. I guess I can sum it up as infringing peoples rights and spying on them isn't going to do jack, while securing the borders will.Cannoneer
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Yeah, there are some parts that are potentially troublesome if taken much further, but that's why you have courts and congressional oversight.
You really trust the same people that bring you the ATF and FEMA? Thats like saying the Jews trusted the nazis not to abuse their power after they registered them and made them wear stars. I agree the system isn't completely gone yet, but it isn't running the way it should.
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Werewolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #85 on: November 11, 2007, 02:33:10 PM »
Quote from: Kyle
My point is, that IN MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, young, wealthy, educated Muslim men and women in this country are often drawn to radical or fundamentalist Islam.
Sounds like the Islamist version of WHITE GUILT.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #86 on: November 11, 2007, 04:53:36 PM »
I guess I can sum it up as infringing peoples rights and spying on them isn't going to do jack, while securing the borders will.

From where I stand, all that has been done is routine CIA work, so I am not sure where the infringement is you speak about. If there is any difference, it is that instead of looking for commie spies, CIA is looking for jihadist bomber cells. The current "infringement" requires a court order, albeit from a special judge. Also, the oversight kicks in if CIA just randomly investigates private citizens without meaningful cause of suspicion. That has not been the case, as far as I can tell.

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You really trust the same people that bring you the ATF and FEMA? Thats like saying the Jews trusted the nazis not to abuse their power after they registered them and made them wear stars. I agree the system isn't completely gone yet, but it isn't running the way it should.

There you go. You distrust and detest gov, period, and liken it to the Nazis. From your perspective, what kind of counter-intelligence and internal national security work would not be Nazi-like?

yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #87 on: November 11, 2007, 05:14:31 PM »
What do I find acceptable to do to AMERICAN CITIZENS? I wanted to make that clear as foreigners in this country do not have the same rights we do and must be on their best behavior at all times. I have no problem with tracing money given to terrorists back to the sender and charging him with aiding the enemy and having a public trial with due process and a jury. I have no problem with looking at websites that praise terrorists hosted by a person and then investigating that person for crimes other than speaking out no matter what goofy crap they say unless it is a direct threat ( The KKK and other such groups fall along with this, they can talk about how black people should die as much as they want until they make actual threats). I have no problems with the government keeping surveillance on a person of interest in public places and in others as long as they have a warrant. I however, do not find acceptable this blanket suspicion of an entire community based on their religious beliefs and starting a witch hunt over it. I agree currently that is not what is happening, but it is only a short step away.
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Bogie

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2007, 05:17:50 PM »
So if someone is an American citizen, and is making noises about killing a whole buncha people, we should ignore them until they actually do it?
 
And then blame it on Bush?
 
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2007, 05:24:27 PM »
I however, do not find acceptable this blanket suspicion of an entire community based on their religious beliefs

That is simply profiling and preliminary sifting. Why is that unacceptable to you? Since you bring up the KKK, would you find it unacceptable if FBI a-priori excludes blacks as potential members? Would it make sense to catalog catholics or methodists while looking for islamic jihadists?

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and starting a witch hunt over it. I agree currently that is not what is happening, but it is only a short step away.

I appreciate the sentiment if meant as a warning. But other than that, you are protesting against something the gov is not doing.

Manedwolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2007, 05:33:42 PM »
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It really came to life when I read a book called Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It describes her experiences as a Muslim woman, the the interworkings of Islamic countries that facilitate the subjugation of women, foster hatred for the West, etc. She also speaks to how the religion ITSELF, taken literaly, facilitates this. This got me thinking, she had lots of valid points.

The most interesting part of her story was that she wrote the film Submission, the film for which Duth director Theo van Gogh was murdered in the streets of Amsrterdam by a Muslim fanatic. She was named as the next target, and went into hiding. She still lives with heavy secuity for her own safety.

The shocker came when I told some of my Muslim friends, particularly the more "traditional" ones about the interesting book I was reading. They recognized the author instantly. Their responses varied, but were uniformly along the same lines:

She deserves to die, I hope they kill her. Any Muslim who speaks out and lies about god and Islam deserves to die.

Thank you, Kyle. This is a very uncomfortable truth that people don't want to face. That Muslims in the US ARE being radicalized. They're literally being brainwashed by someone or something. Imams that are indoctrinating them, whatever it is, it needs to be found, and it needs to be stopped. And it's all over. Even here, the "Islamic Society of Greater Manchester" wanted to build the first mosque in New Hampshire. So whom did they get as a sponsor and keynote speaker, who will visit this mosque if it's built? The guy who was a character witness for the "blind sheik" who orchestrated the 1993 WTC bombing, and who is himself a radical under suspicion of encouraging violence. Great choice! Tongue

This is happening more and more. I've seen several interviews that chilled me to the bone, where an otherwise normal-seeming Muslim was asked a question such as the one you mentioned, about some or the other "apostate", and their expression became cold, and they matter-of-factly made a comment that they should be killed. That's brainwashed, and it's damned scary. I mean, what in the world possessed a student with a bright career future ahead of him, about to graduate from a college, to suddenly decide to run over infidels with an SUV? What sort of indoctrination went on to brainwash him that badly, to that level of throwing his life away just to kill innocent people for being "infidels"?

This has to stop for several reasons.

One, it's going to kill people in the US, otherwise.

And two...it's also going to kill any current form of Islam as a peaceful religion, if this radicalization of people into a violent cult version keeps spreading and spreading, which it is doing.

This is what Ayaan Hirsi Ali and few others Muslims are begging the community as a whole to understand. That unless they, themselves, fight back and root out the radicals, and stop tolerating them, Islam is finished, because the violent radicals will spread, kill peaceful ones who dare dissent, and then themselves be destroyed by the backlash from those whom they attack. And then nothing will be left of the religion at all.


Len Budney

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2007, 05:47:06 PM »
There's only one thing to do: start sticking all Muslims in internment camps. Raus!
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Manedwolf

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2007, 05:50:07 PM »
There's only one thing to do: start sticking all Muslims in internment camps. Raus!

You didn't even read anything I just wrote, did you.

You just went flying off into Godwin land instead. Congratulations!

yesitsloaded

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #93 on: November 11, 2007, 06:19:21 PM »
I'd much rather you guys be right and me wrong, but I have a feeling it will be Muslims today, and Christians or gun owners tomorrow. If you could prove that is imperative to assume guilt and these people must be watched, I would assume you already have enough to put them in jail. This whole thing is bordering on thought crime and is a slippery slope. Remember the Japanese American internment of WWII, but don't remember the German American internment? I think racism coupled with fear mongering can do some bad things in this country. As far as I know the only American citizen caught fighting for the Taliban was a white guy, John Walker Lindh.
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Imams that are indoctrinating them, whatever it is, it needs to be found, and it needs to be stopped.
That is a direct infringement of the first amendment. If you want to try them for inciting violence, threats, or something else do it. I'll follow the trail and make my opinion. If it can be proved without a reasonable doubt that said individual was planning violence against this country, like I said earlier, I would not lose a second of sleep over them being put to death.
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Paddy

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #94 on: November 11, 2007, 07:19:29 PM »
The Manedwolf type hysteria is what got us into this intractable military occupation of the artificial country known as 'Iraq'.  Manedwolf and his ilk think that the United States maintains some kind of moral authority over the world.  Those times have passed, Manedwolf.  We are a debtor nation; we owe the world.  We've sold out for cheap imports manufactured by slave labor in third world countries.  All we care about is how much crap we can stuff in our SUV's before we drive off the Walmart parking lot and how many greasy cheeseburgers we can stuff in our bloated guts.

If 120,000,000 Muslims were out to kill us, as Manedwolf asserts, they would have done it by now. On 9/11, we got caught with our pants down.  We only needed to suck it up, and locate and destroy the so-called 'Al Queda'.  Instead, the mental defective currently occupying the Whitehouse has bankrupted not only us, but future generations as well. (with willing accomplices in the Congress) We have allowed him to steal billions of dollars of our money from the U.S. Treasury and transfer that money into private hands.

We are a weak, wimpy people indeed. 

Euclidean

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2007, 07:32:45 PM »
The Manedwolf type hysteria is what got us into this intractable military occupation of the artificial country known as 'Iraq'.  Manedwolf and his ilk think that the United States maintains some kind of moral authority over the world.  Those times have passed, Manedwolf.  We are a debtor nation; we owe the world.  We've sold out for cheap imports manufactured by slave labor in third world countries.  All we care about is how much crap we can stuff in our SUV's before we drive off the Walmart parking lot and how many greasy cheeseburgers we can stuff in our bloated guts.

If 120,000,000 Muslims were out to kill us, as Manedwolf asserts, they would have done it by now. On 9/11, we got caught with our pants down.  We only needed to suck it up, and locate and destroy the so-called 'Al Queda'.  Instead, the mental defective currently occupying the Whitehouse has bankrupted not only us, but future generations as well. (with willing accomplices in the Congress) We have allowed him to steal billions of dollars of our money from the U.S. Treasury and transfer that money into private hands.

We are a weak, wimpy people indeed. 

You know Riles sometimes you almost make sense, but I disagree just a tiny bit with a couple of big caveats.

One thing that gets me is that people assume that just because you think we outta pull out of Iraq (like I do) it means that you have your head in the sand about militant Islam.

My main criticism of the Iraqi occupation is this:  it has nothing to do with suppressing militant Islam any more and I sincerely question if it ever did.  If we were really worried about militant Islam, we'd have caught Osama by now.  We would have secured our own borders by now.  If we were really worried about militant Islam, we'd have invaded Saudi Arabia.  Do your homework on that one folks, the writing's on the wall.  Hell Iran would have been a better target.

I sincerely believe that we are living in the middle of a war between Militant Islam and Western Civilization.  They are mutually exclusive propositions.  It's a war that started centuries ago, and won't be over with any time soon.  I personally favor killing a whole bunch of people who need killing.

300 was the perfect analogy for it, and the historical documentary from the History Channel on the battle at Thermopylae even more so.  This fight has been going on for a long time.  Anyone who doesn't believe me should go ask the Israelis.  That fight is not about a little scrap of land, and never has been.

Iraq is FUBARED because Bush is a putz.  It's that simple.  Time to pull the boys back home, get thing secure here, then go where these freaks actually live and kill them.  And no, that won't solve the problem in the long term.  I don't think the problem ever will be solved.  But what I do know is the ones who want to kill us respect only force.  Reason, persuasion, and logic are not going to get us anywhere.

I do think we are definitely in our decline.  The great societies only last 200 years or so, peak, and peter out.  I sincerely believe history will look back at this time as a dark age.  But I don't think we're so far gone it's time to shitcan it yet either.

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #96 on: November 11, 2007, 07:45:26 PM »
Euclidean, your post indicates you favor a defensive posture, as do I.  We cannot claim moral high ground at the same time we demonize a billion people who share this planet with us.   We have no moral authority to annihilate a billion people.  We are not that just, and not that righteous.   Our strength lies in our demonstration of democracy to the world.  Our strength lies in our freedoms, and especially our freedom from fear.

It really makes no difference if God is call Holy Father, Jesus Christ, or Allah.  He is one and the same.


Paddy

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #97 on: November 11, 2007, 07:49:39 PM »
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I do think we are definitely in our decline.

We are most certainly not in our decline.  The United States of America, in our short history, has shed more blood, has spent more money, and has done more for the oppressed people of this world than any other people in recorded history.  You must not forget that and you must not forget your heritage.  We are a great people going through difficult times.


Euclidean

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #98 on: November 11, 2007, 07:59:07 PM »
Well I think the best defense is a good offense.  I personally think a real war on terror involves not large standing units, but lots of special forces and intelligence units.  It's not going to be a war with front lines, nor is it going to be an occupation of Iraq.  It's going to involve hitting the right targets hard and fast.

I'm not a peacemonger.  But I do think it's absurd we have put our forces in a useless corner of the world in such numbers while we leave our own country wide open.  That's part of my reason for supporting RP.  I don't think he's the man who will whip us up into the focused destructive frenzy I believe we need, but he's the only one talking about real border security, and that must come first.  Any other planning is stupid before we actually accomplish that.

This is a fight of two different worlds which cannot co exist.  People need to understand that.  Our greatest danger, at present, is not the military/terrorist force these militant Islams actually have.  Not to downplay tragedy, but their actual physical attacks on us have been weak and pathetic compared to the kind of carnage we can whip out if we so wanted.

The greatest threat is the culture of weakness you allude to.  We are a stone block with many cracks in it.  Every so often a little more sympathy for those we should destroy leaks in, it freezes as we ignore it, and widens the crack a little more.  For instance the 9/11 museum is a vile testament to terrorist apologists.

A good America(n) is like a rattlesnake.  The rattler will damn well leave you alone until you screw with it or its nest of eggs.  The instant you do however, it will insure your death, swift and terrible.

The trouble is, the rattlesnake's been provoked, and it'd rather lash out at another target or watch American Idol than actually bite the hand of its provocateur.

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We are most certainly not in our decline.  The United States of America, in our short history, has shed more blood, has spent more money, and has done more for the oppressed people of this world than any other people in recorded history.  You must not forget that and you must not forget your heritage.  We are a great people going through difficult times.

I see it more like a sparkler burning.  The last inch or so burns with a feverish, bright quality, a white hot brightness, which puts the rest of the display to shame before it finally consumes itself and goes out forever.  We're on the last inch.

God I hope I'm wrong.

Paddy

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Re: Umm guys...the government is being naughty
« Reply #99 on: November 11, 2007, 08:23:53 PM »
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I see it more like a sparkler burning.  The last inch or so burns with a feverish, bright quality, a white hot brightness, which puts the rest of the display to shame before it finally consumes itself and goes out forever.  We're on the last inch.

We're nowhere near the last inch, Euclidean.  Look back over our history.  We've endured crises that should have destroyed us.  Yet here we are. Our democracy, our republic, has withstood lethal threats, both internal and external and yet survives.   We are a light that must not be extinguished less the world become a dark and dangerous place.  The spirit of 1776 and the rebelliousness against tyranny must be preserved.

It makes no diff whether that tyranny comes in the form of communisim, fascism, islamic repression, or global corporatism, there will always be some new threat.  Their goal is always the same, subjugation of the common man.  Always remember these words,

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.