Author Topic: More worrying comments from Chavez  (Read 26753 times)

Manedwolf

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2007, 01:10:25 PM »
An awful lot of anger directed at a man who's done nothing to you, and must, by any measure, rank in the top half of heads of state in terms of "not an evil bastard"-ness.

One might think some of y'all were reacting emotionally...

So you becoming a Chavista, now?

The guy is a tinpot dictator who has seized private property from rich and poor alike, from oil companies and poor farmers, nationalizing it all. He's suppressed dissent, destroyed free speech, and has his people beat up anyone who objects. The pogroms are next.

He's entered into large-scale production of AK-103's, and is buying military hardware of the sort that would let him be an aggressor.

Funny, leftists always think leftist dictators aren't so bad, until they find out years later about the secret prisons, executions and mass graves. Useful-idiot leftists helped enable Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro...


wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2007, 01:59:04 PM »
If by "Chavista," you mean "well, Christ, he could be a whole worse," then sign me up. I'm all for hanging the last priest with the entrails of the last king (or is it vice versa), but leaders never exist in a vacuum. Chavez is less than 'good' and better than what has preceded him or what could succeed him.

It's absurd to call him a "dictator," tinpot or otherwise and assert your ability to foretell the future - this belies your emotional investment. "Saddam is a Hitler" redux.

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He's entered into large-scale production of AK-103's, and is buying military hardware of the sort that would let him be an aggressor.
You mean... a nation-state is providing for both its offensive and defensive capability? Why, whoever heard of such a crazy thing?

Just out of curiosity, how do Venezuelan 'defense' expenditures compare to those of the good old USA?

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Funny, leftists always think leftist dictators aren't so bad, until they find out years later about the secret prisons, executions and mass graves. Useful-idiot leftists helped enable Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro...
Your ignorance of 20th century 'leftist' politics is astounding.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

CAnnoneer

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2007, 03:56:32 PM »
Funny, leftists always think leftist dictators aren't so bad, until they find out years later about the secret prisons, executions and mass graves. Useful-idiot leftists helped enable Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro...

And even then, they still do not dislike them, because, as you know, "It is always America's fault anyway."

Phyphor

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2007, 05:01:21 PM »
An awful lot of anger directed at a man who's done nothing to you, and must, by any measure, rank in the top half of heads of state in terms of "not an evil bastard"-ness.

One might think some of y'all were reacting emotionally...


Not an evil bastard?  Wanting to practically restart a war with Britain isn't 'evil?'

How about how he'd like the Saudis to screw with us? 

I don't feel anger or hatred for this guy, I primarily feel contempt


"You know what's messed-up about taxes?
You don't even pay taxes. They take tax.
You get your check, money gone.
That ain't a payment, that's a jack." - Chris Rock "Bigger and Blacker"
He slapped his rifle. "This is one of the best arguments for peace there is. Nobody wants to shoot if somebody is going to shoot back. " Callaghen, Callaghen, Louis La'mour

wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2007, 05:12:49 PM »
Quote
Not an evil bastard?  Wanting to practically restart a war with Britain isn't 'evil?'
Can't say that it is. Stupid, probably. Hot air, most certainly.

Guy's a nationalist. He's posturing, trying to assert his own mini-Monroe Doctrine in his 'sphere of influence.' He's not actually going to attack the British fleet.

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How about how he'd like the Saudis to screw with us? 
Well, gosh, he's all alone in the world thinking that. And I'm sure he has great influence over Saudi policy...

I do think he has some value in the world - and if not Chavez, then a strong state in Central or South America that stands as a counterpoint to US "interests" (coughcoughsnicker). I have no interest in our state being the only 'swinging cod' in this hemisphere.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

Phyphor

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2007, 06:06:24 PM »
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Not an evil bastard?  Wanting to practically restart a war with Britain isn't 'evil?'
Can't say that it is. Stupid, probably. Hot air, most certainly.

Doesn't matter.  He's getting his nation in hot water with a much more powerful nation.  This is not the act of a leader whom is concerned with the welfare of his people, as he damned well should be.



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Guy's a nationalist. He's posturing, trying to assert his own mini-Monroe Doctrine in his 'sphere of influence.' He's not actually going to attack the British fleet.

Really?  So, the Brits should just figure he's bullshitting and just ignore him?
Quote
I do think he has some value in the world - and if not Chavez, then a strong state in Central or South America that stands as a counterpoint to US "interests" (coughcoughsnicker). I have no interest in our state being the only 'swinging cod' in this hemisphere.

Oh, I don't mind someone disagreeing with us, but the vitriol he displays towards our nation on a constant basis gets rather damned old, especially when he's only doing it to keep his vict-er..... people focused outwards against false threats.
"You know what's messed-up about taxes?
You don't even pay taxes. They take tax.
You get your check, money gone.
That ain't a payment, that's a jack." - Chris Rock "Bigger and Blacker"
He slapped his rifle. "This is one of the best arguments for peace there is. Nobody wants to shoot if somebody is going to shoot back. " Callaghen, Callaghen, Louis La'mour

wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2007, 06:58:43 PM »
Quote
Doesn't matter.  He's getting his nation in hot water with a much more powerful nation.  This is not the act of a leader whom is concerned with the welfare of his people, as he damned well should be.
He's been getting his nation "in hot water" for years - to no apparent ill effect.

Insofar as the United States will never invade and conquer his people, pissing off the US really doesn't harm them in any way. What are we gonna do, stop buying their oil?

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Really?  So, the Brits should just figure he's bullshitting and just ignore him?
Yes.

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Oh, I don't mind someone disagreeing with us, but the vitriol he displays towards our nation on a constant basis gets rather damned old,
Strange that his 'vitriol' essentially mirrors what is said about him at every turn.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

roo_ster

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2007, 08:11:54 PM »
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Not even close. Sao Paolo looks just like LA or the like, right down to the number of malls and big-box stores and chain restaurants.
Sao Paolo looks "just like LA" (a first-world metropolis) with massive amounts of retail and corporate food (like every other part of the first-world). And yet is not first-world...

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Argentina and Chile won't be there for decades yet.
Argentina and Chile - despite juntas of their own - have already been there for decades.
Dude, LA isn't first-world anymore, either, demographically.  A crust of wealthy types on top lording it over masses of poor types, with middle class residents few & far between.

We can't get engineers with upper middle class incomes to move to LA to do much-needed work due to the cost of non-crime-ridden housing. 

Chile has done consistently well since Pinochet took the helm over for the damnfool leftists...who'll never forgive him for it.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2007, 08:16:05 PM »
I would pay good money to see any Western power slap him around a bit. 

Heck, the country I'd really like to see him tick off into smacking him down is France.  I would get a warm & fuzzy seeing Froggie hardware working over Chavista supporters.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

Manedwolf

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2007, 08:54:34 PM »
I would pay good money to see any Western power slap him around a bit. 

Heck, the country I'd really like to see him tick off into smacking him down is France.  I would get a warm & fuzzy seeing Froggie hardware working over Chavista supporters.

Whatever one thinks of the French, they make damned good helicopters especially. It's why the Coast Guard uses the Aerospatiale Dauphins and other models. I've heard of incidents of the top of a wave literally hitting them, and they recover and stay airborne.

Phyphor

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2007, 10:23:06 PM »
Quote
Doesn't matter.  He's getting his nation in hot water with a much more powerful nation.  This is not the act of a leader whom is concerned with the welfare of his people, as he damned well should be.
He's been getting his nation "in hot water" for years - to no apparent ill effect.
Yet.



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Insofar as the United States will never invade and conquer his people, pissing off the US really doesn't harm them in any way. What are we gonna do, stop buying their oil?

Weren't you recently pretty much accusing Bush of being a war monger?  So, Bush'll invade ME nations but the hell with closer ones? Right.
Quote
Quote
Really?  So, the Brits should just figure he's bullshitting and just ignore him?
Yes.

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Oh, I don't mind someone disagreeing with us, but the vitriol he displays towards our nation on a constant basis gets rather damned old,
Strange that his 'vitriol' essentially mirrors what is said about him at every turn.


vitriol

noun
1.    (H2SO4) a highly corrosive acid made from sulfur dioxide; widely used in the chemical industry
2.    abusive or venomous language used to express blame or censure or bitter deep-seated ill will [syn: vituperation]

And I usually see nothing about him in the news unless he's running his mouth or oppressing his people, whereas he's constantly bitching about the US and our allies.
 
For what reason? What have we done to him, ever?

"You know what's messed-up about taxes?
You don't even pay taxes. They take tax.
You get your check, money gone.
That ain't a payment, that's a jack." - Chris Rock "Bigger and Blacker"
He slapped his rifle. "This is one of the best arguments for peace there is. Nobody wants to shoot if somebody is going to shoot back. " Callaghen, Callaghen, Louis La'mour

Manedwolf

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2007, 04:53:11 AM »
For what reason? What have we done to him, ever?

Be successful under a capitalistic system. Socialism only rises if the people can be convinced that a more successful system is evil and mean to the poor, etc.


wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2007, 09:47:44 AM »
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LA isn't first-world anymore, either, demographically.
Bo-ring.

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We can't get engineers with upper middle class incomes to move to LA to do much-needed work due to the cost of non-crime-ridden housing.
What you mean to say is that engineers with 'upper middle class' incomes can't live the lifestyle they're accustomed to in LA, because real estate prices are nuts.

Quote
Chile has done consistently well since Pinochet took the helm over for the damnfool leftists...who'll never forgive him for it.
This isn't exactly true. Chile has done consistently well since the early '80s, when Pinochet began to relax his grip, fired the Chicago boys and began to run the state like every other mixed-economy known to mankind. Pinochet's early years, splitting the difference between Franco and Friedman, would not be described as 'successful' (unless you're referring to the ability to disappear union leaders and such).

Chile began to thrive on the ascent of democracy - and has been led, for the last seventeen years, by anti-poverty centrists and social democrats.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2007, 09:53:08 AM »
Quote
Yet.
So you think the United States will 'punish' the people of Venezuela for Chavez's statements?

How do you think we'll go about this?



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Weren't you recently pretty much accusing Bush of being a war monger?  So, Bush'll invade ME nations but the hell with closer ones? Right.
Don't recall ever stating that Bush would consider the invasion of another state (barring Iran) - even a fool and a thug needs some basic kind of pretext.

As bad as Iraq has been, imagine 'pacifying' a nation where a majority actually support the leader you've deposed and have a historical resentment of your meddling dating back 220 years?


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Really?  So, the Brits should just figure he's bullshitting and just ignore him?
Yes.

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And I usually see nothing about him in the news unless he's running his mouth or oppressing his people, whereas he's constantly bitching about the US and our allies.
I didn't specify the news. He's a rather popular topic among right-wingers - pundits and civilians.
 
Quote
For what reason? What have we done to him, ever?
You mean, apart from that nasty little business with the coup?
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

doczinn

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2007, 08:27:40 AM »
Por que no te callas?
D. R. ZINN

CAnnoneer

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2007, 08:50:48 AM »
Por que no te callas?

Touche! Juan Carlos said what everybody thought.

roo_ster

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2007, 01:33:26 PM »
Quote
Chile has done consistently well since Pinochet took the helm over for the damnfool leftists...who'll never forgive him for it.
This isn't exactly true. Chile has done consistently well since the early '80s, when Pinochet began to relax his grip, fired the Chicago boys and began to run the state like every other mixed-economy known to mankind. Pinochet's early years, splitting the difference between Franco and Friedman, would not be described as 'successful' (unless you're referring to the ability to disappear union leaders and such).

Chile began to thrive on the ascent of democracy - and has been led, for the last seventeen years, by anti-poverty centrists and social democrats.
Wooderson:

The GDP data does not agree with your analysis of a moribund economy under the early reforms (1975-1982).  The general understanding is that the early, radical market-oriented reforms had immediate, drastic, & positive results and set the Chilean economy up for more success in the later 1980s afte tthe international monetary crisis in 1982.
http://www.econstats.com/IMF/IFS_Chi1_99B__.htm#Year

Code:
   ,,Gross Domestic Product (GDP) [ IFS code : 99B.. ]
    ,,Chile
    ,, Units: Billions of National Currency  (1E-09)     
    ,, From: National Accounts                           
    ,, ES Source:  International Financial Statistics   
     , Year      , 1948 to 2003   , Percent Change
   1 , 2003      ,      49819.301 ,        7.3%
   2 , 2002      ,      46411.299 ,        6.8%
   3 , 2001      ,      43441.401 ,        7.1%
   4 , 2000      ,      40575.298 ,        9.3%
   5 , 1999      ,      37138.498 ,        1.7%
   6 , 1998      ,      36534.900 ,        5.2%
   7 , 1997      ,      34722.600 ,       11.2%
   8 , 1996      ,      31237.299 ,       10.3%
   9 , 1995      ,      28309.199 ,       19.4%
  10 , 1994      ,      23714.700 ,       23.0%
  11 , 1993      ,      19276.499 ,       19.6%
  12 , 1992      ,      16123.200 ,       26.8%
  13 , 1991      ,      12720.000 ,       37.6%
  14 , 1990      ,       9245.500 ,       25.7%
  15 , 1989      ,       7353.700 ,       24.3%
  16 , 1988      ,       5917.880 ,       30.3%
  17 , 1987      ,       4540.560 ,       32.8%
  18 , 1986      ,       3419.210 ,       28.9%
  19 , 1985      ,       2651.940 ,       40.1%
  20 , 1984      ,       1893.390 ,       21.5%
  21 , 1983      ,       1557.710 ,       25.7%
  22 , 1982      ,       1239.120 ,       -2.7%
  23 , 1981      ,       1273.120 ,       18.4%
  24 , 1980      ,       1075.270 ,       39.2%
  25 , 1979      ,        772.200 ,       58.4%
  26 , 1978      ,        487.506 ,       69.4%
  27 , 1977      ,        287.770 ,      123.6%
  28 , 1976      ,        128.676 ,      263.0%
  29 , 1975      ,         35.447 ,      285.3%
  30 , 1974      ,          9.199 ,      702.1%
  31 , 1973      ,          1.147 ,      389.1%
  32 , 1972      ,          0.234 ,       84.7%
  33 , 1971      ,          0.127 ,       29.0%
  34 , 1970      ,          0.098
  35 , 1969      ,          0.069
  36 , 1968      ,          0.047
  37 , 1967      ,          0.034
  38 , 1966      ,          0.026
  39 , 1965      ,          0.018
  40 , 1964      ,          0.013
  41 , 1963      ,          0.009
  42 , 1962      ,          0.006
  43 , 1961      ,          0.005
  44 , 1960      ,          0.004
  45 , 1959      ,          0.004
  46 , 1958      ,          0.003
  47 , 1957      ,          0.002
  48 , 1956      ,          0.002
  49 , 1955      ,          0.001
  50 , 1954      ,          0.001
  51 , 1953      ,          0.000
  52 , 1952      ,          0.000
  53 , 1951      ,          0.000
  54 , 1950      ,          0.000
  55 , 1949      ,          0.000
  56 , 1948      ,          0.000



When Allende took office in November 1970, his UP government faced a stagnant economy weakened by inflation, which hit a rate of 35 percent in 1970. Between 1967 and 1970, real GDP per capita had grown only 1.2 percent per annum, a rate significantly below the Latin American average.
...
During 1972 the macroeconomic problems continued to mount. Inflation surpassed 200 percent, and the fiscal deficit surpassed 13 percent of GDP. Domestic credit to the public sector grew at almost 300 percent, and international reserves dipped below US$77 million. Real wages fell 25 percent in 1972
...
During the first quarter of 1973, Chile's economic problems became extremely serious. Inflation reached an annual rate of more than 120 percent, industrial output declined by almost 6 percent, and foreign-exchange reserves held by the Central Bank were barely above US$40 million. The black market by then covered a widening range of transactions in foreign exchange. The fiscal deficit continued to climb as a result of spiraling expenditures and of rapidly disappearing sources of taxation. For that year, the fiscal deficit ended up exceeding 23 percent of GDP.
...
After the military took over the government in September 1973, there was a year and a half of benign neglect of the economy as the regime consolidated its power. When in April 1975, the so called "Chicago Boys" took control of economic policy, a period of dramatic economic changes began. Chile was transformed gradually from an economy isolated from the rest of the world, with strong government intervention, into a liberalized, worldintegrated economy, where market forces were left free to guide most of the economy's decisions. This period was characterized by several important economic achievements: inflation was reduced greatly, the government deficit was virtually eliminated, the economy went through a dramatic liberalization of its foreign sector, and a strong market system was established.

From an economic point of view, the era of General Augusto Pinochet Ugarte (1973-90) can be divided into two periods. The first, from 1975 to 1981, corresponds to the period when most of the reforms were implemented. The period ended with the international debt crisis and the collapse of the Chilean economy. At that point, unemployment was extremely high, above 20 percent, and a large proportion of the banking sector had become bankrupt. During this period, a pragmatic economic policy that emphasized export expansion and growth was implemented. The second period, from 1982 to 1990, is characterized by economic recovery and a further movement towards a free market economy, although at a slower pace than that of the early 1980s.
...
I won't go into the details of the post 1982 economic reforms under Pinochet, but they trend in the same direction as the 1975-1982 reforms, even if the personnel changed.  Click the link for details. 


Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

geronimotwo

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2007, 03:25:46 PM »
Quote
He (chavez) declared that British history was stained with the blood of South Americas indigenous people


i guess history is not my strong suit. i thought it was the spaniards who destroyed the early indigenous civilizations.
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

wooderson

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2007, 05:04:20 PM »
jfruser, reading wikipedia for any kind of interpreted history is useless. Though you may wish to read the sentence prior to the one you highlighted.

And, as usual, pointing to GDP tells very little of any economic story.
"The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard."

De Selby

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2007, 11:56:25 PM »
Someone please tell me in what possible, remotely rational definition of the word "dictator", Hugo Chavez is a dictator.  The guy answers to other elected leaders, he is elected himself by a large majority, his country has the highest level of support for and favorable opinions of democracy and of its own government in particular of any nation in Latin America.

His major project now isn't weapons or a secret police, it's sending cuban doctors to rural areas in order to bring medical care to the poorest segments of his population. 

Citing Pinochet as an example of the kind of "democracy" that some of you would like to see in Latin America is simply beyond belief.  Whether or not the economy benefitted from his brutal dictatorship is an open question (Chicago Boy is a dirty word throughout latin america-their policies were hated, across the board), but whether or not he was a brutal tyrant who makes Chavez look like the most principled of the American founding fathers in comparison is fairly clear.

A brutal dictatoship that tortures thousands of people to institute an economic policy crafted in Washington DC is not a "democracy" anymore than an elected president who implements popular economic reforms with the full support of his electorate and a coalition of elected representatives is a dictator (note that the former is Pinochet, the latter is Chavez.)

Hatred for Hugo Chavez here in America simply confirms the conspiracy theories widely held by Latin Americans-that the US doesn't want democracy, but actually just wants them to do whatever Washington says, their own rights to soveriegnty and national security be darned.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

doczinn

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2007, 04:34:31 AM »
Can someone explain to me why democracy is so damn important? It happens to be the most reliable way to ensure that rights are protected, but when it doesn't do that, I say throw it out and start over.
D. R. ZINN

Scout26

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2007, 06:37:36 AM »
I predict that he'll turn Venezula into the Zimbabwe of Latin America.  He'll start eliminating dissendents and "wreckers" soon enough. 

It's amazing that a country with such excellent natural resources will become a economic basket case.

Zimbabwe, formerly known as Rhodesia, was the breadbasket of Africa.  Now there's food shortages and potential starvation and famine. 

But not to worry, socialism will work in Venezula this time !!!!
Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants won't help.


Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
Get up to the roundhouse on the cliff-top standing.
Take women and children and bed them down.
Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
Hold fast by the river.
Sweet memories to drive us on,
for the motherland.

De Selby

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2007, 06:05:23 PM »
Can someone explain to me why democracy is so damn important? It happens to be the most reliable way to ensure that rights are protected, but when it doesn't do that, I say throw it out and start over.

With what? A military dictator who we can hope will just "do the right thing" even though he's accountable to no one but himself?

How do you "throw out democracy" and start over in any way that is more likely to protect rights than democracy itself?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

doczinn

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2007, 08:15:02 PM »
I dunno, could just be a different democratic system.
D. R. ZINN

De Selby

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Re: More worrying comments from Chavez
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2007, 10:18:54 PM »
I dunno, could just be a different democratic system.

That's why they have elections.  Using force to uproot the results of an election is not "a different democratic system". 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."