Swat Teams

[Zeke]

My father was a Chief of Police back in the 1930's.  He often gave me his views on how police officers should operate.  It has occurred to me over the last couple of years that there is something going terribly wrong in our society when it comes to police training and reaction to various incidents.  Where I live we have had several unarmed people shot and killed because the police officers involved perceived that they might be in personal danger. 

Example: A citizen who was driving the wrong kind of car in the wrong neighborhood.  When he failed to signal early enough for a right hand turn he was boxed in and drawn down on.  As he sat motionless in his car the officers screamed at him to keep his hands in sight and exit the vehicle.  When he continued to remain motionless they opened fire.  After fatally wounding the citizen they tazered him because "he still refused to move."

Example: An unarmed naked man who refused to come down from the top of a stopped patrol car was shot to death.

Example:  A schizophrenic man was shot and killed when he ran from police after being observed urinating in the street.

Having spent several years in the military, I've come to some conclusions about the current, growing emphasis on military style training and operations for police personnel.  Some characteristics and goals of military training are:

Reduction of the need to contemplate alternate courses of action when presented with a possible threat.

Encouragement of speedy, instinctual responses to perceived threats.

Development of an "us versus them" view of the world, with any "them" being considered a potential threat and expendable.

Personal survival as a primary goal.

I would submit to you that these goals of military training are necessary for soldiers to function on a battlefield, where any unknown is assumed to be a threat until neutralized, and survival of combat forces is paramount.

This is a set of goals, however, that are IMHO incompatible with the functioning of a peace officer on our public streets.  What do we want from our police officers?  I submit to you it's more like this:

Citizens are innocent until proven guilty.  This is directly opposite of the mindset needed for a soldier to survive on a battlefield.

Put the lives of the public before the lives of police officers.  Err on the side of preserving innocent life, rather than shoot first and ask questions later.  Police officers know or should know when they sign on to the job that they will be called upon to risk their lives.

Most situations can be resolved without lethal force if effective communications can be established.  Repeatedly screaming "GET ON THE GROUND!" does not establish any kind of effective communications.

Officers need to stop and think before acting.  Things are often not what they appear to be when dealing with the public, and many of these tragedies could be avoided with a few seconds of rational thought before pulling a trigger.

Finally, I have to observe that when you've been trained to respond to every situation with a hammer, every situation begins, at first glance, to look like a nail.

[Phyphor]

Well, I do agree that there's entirely too many situations where folks get shot who really should not have been.  However, we've also seen situations where cops got show when the failed to react in time, like that video that floated around of a cop being shot to death during a traffic stop.  IIRC, the BG exited his vehicle with a M-1 carbine and really lit the officer up.

Now, an obviously naked man is pretty much certainly NOT going to have any deadly weapons on him that aren't in his hands.  So, tazering him might be more appropriate, if he behaves in an obviously hostile manner.

And yea, a felony stop for a traffic violation is just plain bullshit.  I can understand it being the wrong neighborhood, and I can even understand the officer calling for backup.  But unless the man completely failed to stop for the cops, I just don't see why he had to be 'boxed in' like that.  If he did fail to pull over, then as much as I hate to say it, he definitely made a bad move.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

A citizen who was driving the wrong kind of car in the wrong neighborhood.  When he failed to signal early enough for a right hand turn he was boxed in and drawn down on.  As he sat motionless in his car the officers screamed at him to keep his hands in sight and exit the vehicle.  When he continued to remain motionless they opened fire.  After fatally wounding the citizen they tazered him because "he still refused to move."

i missed that event   where/when did it happen?

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

Do you have sources for any of these events?

[vernal45]

Nothing to see here, move along.  The police are your friend.

[Zeke]

Do you have sources for any of these events?

http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/perezshooting.html

http://fkaady.blogspot.com/2005/10/witnesses-describe-police-shooting.html

http://www.portlandcopwatch.org/chasse.html

The last case was not a shooting case.  I was mistaken about that fact.  The man was beaten to death by the police.  But that doesn't change the point of my post, nor the anything about the other two cases.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

those were sources  sorta  and there is a possibility  they aren't serving their own agenda  could you give anythat aren't advocacy groups or blogs?

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Fouad Kaady (January 8, 1978  September 8, 2005) was killed after a car accident in Portland, Oregon. Fouad slammed his car into two others before crashing his vehicle. Kaady was badly burned upon emerging from the vehicle. Although Kaady's family claims that a gas can in the vehicle exploded in the final crash, causing his burns and his erratic behavior, a subsequent investigation concluded that there had been no fire inside the vehicle.

William J. Bergin, a Sandy, Oregon police officer and David. E. Willard, a Clackamas County deputy, arrived at the scene and attempted to subdue Kaady. When Kaady resisted, the officers next attempted to handcuff him, then used a taser. Kaady ultimately climbed a patrol car and appeared poised to jump Officer Bergin; at this point, he was shot seven times and later pronounced dead at the scene.

Eyewitness accounts of the incident are split, with some individuals outraged that the officers used deadly force, and others convinced that the officers acted appropriately. An subsequent internal investigation ultimately cleared the officers of any misconduct.

from wikki

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

and what do any of these cases have to do with swat?

[Zeke]

those were sources  sorta  and there is a possibility  they aren't serving their own agenda  could you give anythat aren't advocacy groups or blogs?

Try either the archives of "The Oregonian" newspaper online, or the KATU web page.  Both should have realtively unbiased reportage of these incidents.  The sources cited don't differ on the material facts.

[Zeke]

and what do any of these cases have to do with swat?

SWAT teams are where I believe the military style training started for police officers.  Now that style training has bled over into all areas of law enforcement, IMHO.  I think that's why we are seeing a huge increase in the "shoot first and ask questions later" police shooting incidents here in the Portland area.  I have to believe it's not isolated to this area though.

[Zeke]

Fouad Kaady (January 8, 1978  September 8, 2005) was killed after a car accident in Portland, Oregon. Fouad slammed his car into two others before crashing his vehicle. Kaady was badly burned upon emerging from the vehicle. Although Kaady's family claims that a gas can in the vehicle exploded in the final crash, causing his burns and his erratic behavior, a subsequent investigation concluded that there had been no fire inside the vehicle.

William J. Bergin, a Sandy, Oregon police officer and David. E. Willard, a Clackamas County deputy, arrived at the scene and attempted to subdue Kaady. When Kaady resisted, the officers next attempted to handcuff him, then used a taser. Kaady ultimately climbed a patrol car and appeared poised to jump Officer Bergin; at this point, he was shot seven times and later pronounced dead at the scene.

Eyewitness accounts of the incident are split, with some individuals outraged that the officers used deadly force, and others convinced that the officers acted appropriately. An subsequent internal investigation ultimately cleared the officers of any misconduct.

from wikki

An unarmed, naked man "was shot seven times and later pronounced dead at the scene."  What would have been wrong with calling for backup instead?  Are we saying that there's no way to control an unarmed naked man?

"An subsequent internal investigation ultimately cleared the officers of any misconduct." Because they were found to have followed approved procedures they were presumably trained to follow (shooting an unarmed naked man who threatens them).

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i can't find reference to foaud's sutopsy anywhere?can you?
and in my experience you were much more likely to get shot "back in the day" to say nothin of getting serious stick time

[armchair warrior]

I tend to agree a little with Zeke. 
I know theres a big difference with the way cops looked
and acted when I was younger than now.
Back then they acted like sheriff Andy Taylor= your friend.
Now they look/act like M.P.s=You do something wrong?
I don't know,maybe I'm getting old.  

[ilbob]

Cops used to be the guy that stood guard in your neighborhood so you could sleep at night knowing you were safe. It wasn't really that way, but police departments made an effort to make it seem that way.

Now it is all about force. you screw with us and we will use whatever level of force we feel is acceptable (to us) to force you to comply with whatever we say. It isn't really that way today either, but many police departments seem to focus on being bigger and badder every day.

[K Frame]

Moving this to Round Table.

[vernal45]

Now they look/act like M.P.s

  NO

The look and act like want to be MP's.  MP school, as far as I have heard, still gives healthy courses on civil rights within the UCMJ.  Cops today are pathetic.  I say that, being a former cop.  I dont really blame the bad cops, they just get away with what the good ones will allow.  I blame the good cops for circling the blue wagons and protecting the bad ones.  There is a more militant attitude with cops, good and bad, and that does not bode well for the citizen.  Gone are the days of helpful cops. 

[Zeke]

Yes, I have yet to figure out why it is suddenly necessary to kick in my door, terrorize my family, throw me onto the ground and handcuff me, all the while screaming non-stop at the top of their lungs, before the police can allow me to ask what's going on and tell them they have the wrong house.  The police are NOT a military organization and they are not at war with the general populace, but they are trained, and they act as if they are.

[Bogie]

Well, I know that I've tried to approach a few local cops, to ask how I could volunteer some surplus time and materials for some of their community initiatives, and in three out of three instances, I've felt like I was being treated like a lowlife.
 
So screw it. I'll pitch the stuff.
 

[Len Budney]

... in three out of three instances, I've felt like I was being treated like a lowlife.

Yep, you're one of the "little people." Pathetic, isn't it? On the bright side, they didn't tase you...

[Chris]

Just an observation here, but this thread seems to make us as guilty as those we oppose.  The anti's claim that we are all a bunch of anti-"guvernment" red necks who are arming ourselves against the possibility of being invaded by "guvernment" forces.  In other words, they stereotype us in the image of a very remote few "militia" types.

So, we look at this thread, which states that all cops are anti-people, shoot-first-and -ask-questions-later, wanna be Rambos.  So, that would include the police officer who serves as a den leader in my son's Cub Scout pack.  That would include the officer who volunteers with me at teen events to teach the dangers of dumb driving by young drivers.  That would include the police officer who was invited to be the graduation speaker by a high school class because of all the contact they had with him as a DARE officer.  That would also include the police officer who volunteers as a football coach at the school where he's a resource officer.  And also the trooper who suffered first and second degree burns on his hands, arms, and face while pulling a car seat with an infant strapped inside out of a burning minivan.

Yeah, I know there are bad cops.  Just like there are bad teachers, bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad mothers, bad IT people, etc.  I've known a few bad cops.  I've prosecuted a few bad cops.  Some are still incarcerated.

BUt, I think we do ourselves a big injustice when we start this kind of attack on anyone who wears a badge.

[Zeke]

It's not an attack on the people who wear a badge.  It's the system and the training that are the problem, IMO.

[Thor]

There are PLENTY of good folks out there that wear a badge. I used to. (We didn't have Tasers in my day) What I DO think is something along the lines of what I was taught in the Navy, "One aww *expletive deleted*it ruins 1000 atta-boys". While I'll be the first one up in arms against Police abuse of power, there are the majority that don't abuse their power. I DO think that the police, in SOME cases, get a little overanxious and far too aggressive for my tastes. THOSE are the events we seem to be hearing about. Just like the war in Iraq. We always seem to hear the BAD and not the good.

[MechAg94]

I really have to wonder if cops have really changed or are we just seeing all the news articles around the country so it is more visible.  More visibility is my guess. 

[yesitsloaded]

The local PD around here have the paramilitary disease bad. It is honestly like mall ninjas with a badge.