Swat Teams

[vernal45]

So, that would include the police officer who serves as a den leader in my son's Cub Scout pack.  That would include the officer who volunteers with me at teen events to teach the dangers of dumb driving by young drivers.  That would include the police officer who was invited to be the graduation speaker by a high school class because of all the contact they had with him as a DARE officer.  That would also include the police officer who volunteers as a football coach at the school where he's a resource officer.  And also the trooper who suffered first and second degree burns on his hands, arms, and face while pulling a car seat with an infant strapped inside out of a burning minivan.

Yes.  It does include all of the above.  The mindset today is militant.  Intimidate, dominate and control.  I, as I have said before, blame the "good cops" for not policing the bad.  Used to, I would (and have) stopped to aid police officers.  Not anymore.  You can get your a$$ whooped or worse on the side of the road.  I could not care less. 

Also, I could not care less what the "anti's" claim.  You see, the 2A is anti government.  It is a 4th branch of government, straight to the people.  So that we may overthrow a bad government, sounds pretty anti government to me.  If an anti wants to think me a militia type, go for it.  I am really past caring about how an anti thinks.

[Bogie]

I think that part of it is that they've got New Toys. Barney's been given an MP5 -and- they threw in a half dozen magazines stashed in a really groovy black cordura vest.... So he wants to use 'em.

I _hate_ training days at my local club. PRIVATE club that we let 'em shoot on. They give you the evil eye, and act like you're (a) a criminal; and (b) don't know squat, even though you can outshoot 'em...
 
The younger ones also grew up with video games... Why shoot once, if you can dump the magazine and reload? For that matter, why bother to try to talk the drunk guy down from the tree? Gravity'll do the job....

[SteveS]

The younger ones also grew up with video games... Why shoot once, if you can dump the magazine and reload? For that matter, why bother to try to talk the drunk guy down from the tree? Gravity'll do the job....

This mindset has been around longer than video games, so I don't see the connection.  Besides, I am very stingy with my ammo when I play Call of Duty 4.   

[Chris]

Yes.  It does include all of the above.  The mindset today is militant.  Intimidate, dominate and control.  I, as I have said before, blame the "good cops" for not policing the bad.  Used to, I would (and have) stopped to aid police officers.  Not anymore.  You can get your a$$ whooped or worse on the side of the road.  I could not care less. 

Also, I could not care less what the "anti's" claim.  You see, the 2A is anti government.  It is a 4th branch of government, straight to the people.  So that we may overthrow a bad government, sounds pretty anti government to me.  If an anti wants to think me a militia type, go for it.  I am really past caring about how an anti thinks.
[/quote]

Well, I guess we'll just chalk this one up to a case of "agree to disagree", because I no more blame the good cops for the behavior of bad cops than I do any other field or occupation.  Blaming all law enforcement officers for the bahavior of thr boorish is like blaming me because of the behavior of an amublance chaser suing anyone for any reason.

And, I do agree with you that I don't care what anti's think, but I seriously do care what theaverage person thinks.  If we give ammunition to the anti's, that may sway more people to their side, and expand reasonable restrictions.  Heck, for that matter, if the SCOTUS rules that the 2A is an individual right, I can see the anti's start rallying the troops for a constitutional convention/amendment to eliminate the 2A, calling it an outdated throwback to a time whan there were no police to keep you safe, etc., etc.  But that's way off topic here.

Another thought...with many of the posts I see around here talking about how bad the police are, and how they abuse their power, etc., do we wonder why some might develop an us against them attitude?  I see it here in court all the time, where parents are teaching kids that cops are people to be avoided, that they are nothing but trouble, etc.  I've been to parties with cop friends, and as soon as anyone learns of their occupation, it's like they have the plague.  People stop talking to them, stand off, like they are afraid that anything they say is going to result in them being investigated or charged.  It's a two way street.

[RocketMan]

My last official encounter with LE was for a speeding violation in 1999.  Ten miles over the limit on a highway.  It wasn't, "Sir, do you know how fast you were going?  License and registration, please." Instead, I was on the receiving end of a screaming tirade of abuse.  I am convinced the only thing that saved me from an ass beating was that he received a radio call for something more serious and had to leave.

<<Deleted this section because I rethought things.>>

And just last night in Corvallis, OR, my wife misunderstood the hand signals of a cop directing traffic at an intersection closed because of a traffic accident a half-mile further down the road.
She gets pulled over by another cop, and instead of being asked in a reasonable tone why she went the wrong way, gets screamed at.  To her credit, she maintained an even strain, and the tasers stayed in their holsters.
She asked the cop for directions around the road closure as she was unfamiliar with the area, but he refused to lower himself to the level of public servant and she was forced to return home.

My respect for cops is pretty much gone.

[vernal45]

with many of the posts I see around here talking about how bad the police are, and how they abuse their power, etc., do we wonder why some might develop an us against them attitude?  I see it here in court all the time, where parents are teaching kids that cops are people to be avoided, that they are nothing but trouble, etc.  I've been to parties with cop friends, and as soon as anyone learns of their occupation, it's like they have the plague.  People stop talking to them, stand off, like they are afraid that anything they say is going to result in them being investigated or charged.  It's a two way street.

You are damn right it is a 2 way street.  The reason people avoid cops and teach their young ones to do the same is becasue of the bad cops that will turn your life inside out in a matter of minutes and the good ones that let them get by with it.  If you want a taste of the mind set of todays badge wearing citizens, just visit coptalk on the Austrian plastic pistol talk site.  If you think the chatter that goes on there is acceptable, then I hope you do not wear a badge.

[Chris]

I did carry a badge as a prosecuting attorney.  I prosecuted bad cops, with the help of good cops.  maybe that's why i have a different view of things.  Obviously, I'm in the minority around here, so I'll just let it go, and move on to anothe topic...

How about those Browns?   

[Ex-MA Hole]

The Browns?

You mean Ed and Eliane?


Just kidding.

[roo_ster]

...where parents are teaching kids that cops are people to be avoided, that they are nothing but trouble, etc...

I work in an industry requiring a security clearance and have been drug tested as a matter of policy for years.  Also, I have regularly worked with Fed-level security & investigative types.

Despite my personal squeaky-cleanness, I severely limit my interaction with LEOs (outside of work) with the exception of buddies from way back.   I will teach my kids to mostly avoid LEOs and have taught my wife to do so, as well.

The probability and consequences of an adverse outcome with LEOs, nowadays, is too great to counsel them otherwise.  One screwy LEO in a bad mood can put my career and livelihood at risk.  One screwy LEO can ruin a kid's dreams with an arrest. 

In my book, LEOs are as George Washington describes government in general:

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
----George Washington

BTW, I work under the assumption that most LEOs are decent folks who would not go out of their way to wreak havoc.  The consequences of one of the not-so-decent LEOs wreaking havoc are too large to risk more interaction than absolutely necessary.

Who is responsible?

In my industry, I AM RESPONSIBLE if a colleague does the wrong thing, security-wise.  It has been made clear that I am supposed to counter, correct, or report such behavior or attitudes.  Letting them be is not an option and can get me fired and/or prosecuted.  I have had to report colleagues who did not do the right thing, for whatever reason.  It does not make me popular, but it does fulfill my responsibilities.

Given the above, I am less sympathetic than I might be to the plight of the majority of LEOs who are not, themselves, actively causing the problem.  They, like I, observe their colleagues and can see what is going on.

[seeker_two]

I did carry a badge as a prosecuting attorney.  I prosecuted bad cops, with the help of good cops.  maybe that's why i have a different view of things.  Obviously, I'm in the minority around here, so I'll just let it go, and move on to anothe topic...

Typically, there are three types of cops:
1. the bad cops who use their badge, equipment, and "authority" to assert their "superiority" over "civilians" (...and do I ever HATE the use of that term...) to bully their way through a shift, Constitution be dam**d.
2. the good cops who don't, but let #1 get away with it.
3. the good cops who don't and try correct #1 & #2.

I'm glad you were able to work with #3...they're a dying breed. But #2 is the biggest group, and #1 is growing by the day. And that scares & saddens me....

How about those Browns?   

They're OK....I prefer home fries, myself.... 

[vernal45]

jfruser, well said.

3 kinds of people want to be LEO's.

1.  Bullies, so that they can continue to bully others.
2.  The bullied.  So that they can finally bully other people and get back at society.
3.  These folks really do not want to be LEO's.  They want to be Peace Officers and make a difference in their corner of the world.  The 3rd group is the smallest group.

[Creeping Incrementalism]

...where parents are teaching kids that cops are people to be avoided, that they are nothing but trouble, etc...

Despite my personal squeaky-cleanness, I severely limit my interaction with LEOs (outside of work) with the exception of buddies from way back.   I will teach my kids to mostly avoid LEOs and have taught my wife to do so, as well.

The probability and consequences of an adverse outcome with LEOs, nowadays, is too great to counsel them otherwise.  One screwy LEO in a bad mood can put my career and livelihood at risk.  One screwy LEO can ruin a kid's dreams with an arrest.

I agree with that sentiment.  There are too many incidents of good, law-abiding having their day, weekend, or possibly life ruinined because some cops don't know California's complicated firearms laws, and decide to arrest/seize first and research the issue later.  And actually, it sounds to me that they never bother to research it even afterwords.  Meanwhile the (usually former) gunowner is faced with the choice, after the prosecutor looks up the law, of giving up their gun in return for a dismissal, because its cheaper than fighting it, even though both the prosecutor and gun owner know the case is BS.  I even heard a gunshop owner relay how younger cops, while buying their service pistols from him, make comments to him along the lines of, "Good business for you is bad for us."  The NRA says the vast majority of police are pro-gun, but I don't know if that is the case here.  Anytime you let a LEO in California know that you are transporting a firearm in your vehicle, you are required by law to let him check that it is stored properly if he wants to see it.  We have discussions on CalGuns.net on how to make the cop think you don't have any guns without technically lieing to him.  In my opinion, any law-abiding gun owner in California who doesn't fear the police is a fool.

[Chris]

Okay, I said I was going to let it go, so I'll limit myself to one more posting.   

Imagine being in a job where you only deal with tragedy and unpleasantness every day.  Every time you have to do your job, it's because there's a problem needs fixin'.  On many of those occassions, you migt find yourself facing danger to yourself.  Many times, it's potentially deadly.  Add to that the sheer negativity you draw from many people solely from doing your job (person issued a ticket, etc.)  Now, stack on top of that the fact that many people (see above) teach their children to stay away from you...that you are dangerous and to be avoided.  Not because of you as a person.  Not because of your beliefs.  Just because of your job.

That is why I could never be an LEO, and yet why I do support the good ones.

[Bogie]

My current rehearsed stock answer:

"Sir, there's no way I would ever carry anything illegal in my vehicle. And no, you can't just look, because my sister the lawyer says I should always make you get a warrant."

[seeker_two]

Along the same line....has anyone here heard about the newest "prank".... swatting 

http://www.itcinstitute.com/display.aspx?id=4371
http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071017/NEWS02/710170400/0/NEIGHBORS
http://cbs11tv.com/local/Prank.calls.swatting.2.598464.html

A bully-boy LEO attitude just makes them more apt to fall for these things.... 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

"A bully-boy LEO attitude just makes them more apt to fall for these things....  "


how so?  how is the attitude transferred to the 911 operators

[vernal45]

This will give you a warm and fuzzy.  It also is one example of todays LEO mindset.  Remember 18 times in 2 years.  Police were called to this house 18 times in 2 years for domestic violence.  What happened?  Did violent husband get jailed, no.  Mrs. Peterson is missing/dead.
Circle them blue wagons.  I blame each and every officer involved in the Peterson affair.  You are all guilty of Murder on this. 

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g9LSLrzFQGStXb1io5FdErAtFFKgD8T7PDKO1

[ilbob]

This will give you a warm and fuzzy.  It also is one example of todays LEO mindset.  Remember 18 times in 2 years.  Police were called to this house 18 times in 2 years for domestic violence.  What happened?  Did violent husband get jailed, no.  Mrs. Peterson is missing/dead.
Circle them blue wagons.  I blame each and every officer involved in the Peterson affair.  You are all guilty of Murder on this. 

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g9LSLrzFQGStXb1io5FdErAtFFKgD8T7PDKO1

I don't just blame the cops for this kind of thing. there are elected officials who are supposed to be on duty to protect us from these kind of officers and they just plain do not do so.

Just a little more transparency into the police supervision and disciplinary systems would make a huge difference.

[Len Budney]

Just a little more transparency into the police supervision and disciplinary systems would make a huge difference.

The basic problem is that there's a monopoly supplier of police services. A monopoly always produces worse service at higher prices. Bad service in a shoe store means shoes that don't fit. Bad service in a police department means bullying, injuries, wrong people arrested, etc.

The problem in either case isn't that the workers are evil (though some are, of course) but that excellence costs more and, for a monopoly, serves no purpose. So bad ones aren't weeded out; good ones aren't rewarded; mistakes aren't punished; etc. Eventually the bad or incompetent ones are running wild, and the good ones are listless and despondent.

--Len.

[vernal45]

Just a little more transparency into the police supervision and disciplinary systems would make a huge difference.

I agree 100%.  But, sadly, there are 2 laws;  a law for you and me, and a law for those who weare badges.

[Tallpine]

I don't trust LEOs

I do trust peace officers


The sheriff of our neighboring county (we are 2 miles from the county line) is a good example.  Just yesterday I heard on the radio traffic - he was headed to Billings for some business, came across a gentleman broke down in another county, and gave him a ride ~10 miles back the other way to the stranded motorist's home.

They have just two paid officers to cover that whole county 24/7/365.

[seeker_two]

"A bully-boy LEO attitude just makes them more apt to fall for these things....  "


how so?  how is the attitude transferred to the 911 operators

"Dispatch, stand by on sending out an officer to investigate. We have to use these tactical black toys for something..."

Note: Not all LEO's are bully-boys. Most are good people---who stand by while the bully-boys increase in number and boldness. And the good ones are retiring fast. I'm nervous about the future of "law enforcement"...

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

"A bully-boy LEO attitude just makes them more apt to fall for these things....  "


how so?  how is the attitude transferred to the 911 operators

"Dispatch, stand by on sending out an officer to investigate. We have to use these tactical black toys for something..."

Note: Not all LEO's are bully-boys. Most are good people---who stand by while the bully-boys increase in number and boldness. And the good ones are retiring fast. I'm nervous about the future of "law enforcement"...

so thats how it works in your imagination?  could you support your fantasy?  maybe even dazzle us with your background and experience?

[RevDisk]

Okay, I said I was going to let it go, so I'll limit myself to one more posting.   

Imagine being in a job where you only deal with tragedy and unpleasantness every day.  Every time you have to do your job, it's because there's a problem needs fixin'.  On many of those occassions, you migt find yourself facing danger to yourself.  Many times, it's potentially deadly.  Add to that the sheer negativity you draw from many people solely from doing your job (person issued a ticket, etc.)  Now, stack on top of that the fact that many people (see above) teach their children to stay away from you...that you are dangerous and to be avoided.  Not because of you as a person.  Not because of your beliefs.  Just because of your job.

That is why I could never be an LEO, and yet why I do support the good ones.

I was a soldier for six years.  I acknowledge I didn't have to deal with unpleasantness every day.  But when things got unpleasant, things got real unpleasant.  I have never taken out my stress on civilians.  When I had a bad day, I made it a point to be more polite and careful.  Anyone in my squad who'd take out their bad day on a civilian would be soundly punished.  Most of the soldiers I've ever worked with believed they were tougher and better able to deal with problems than civilians.  Logically enough, because objectively they are.  I never met a single one that'd even consider using their training or position to mess with a civilian for entertainment or to blow off stress.  May the Gods protect any soldier who would, because I would not and nor would any soldier I respect.

I realize it's a difficult job and I respect that.  I wouldn't want to be in that job.  I always wanted to protect Americans.  I swore than oath.


I like many other folks, try to avoid police.  I work as a security administrator and I want to keep a squeaky clean record.  My beliefs are much like jfruser.  I personally do not dislike police but I know that one disgruntled police officer can ruin my career.  I simply do not have faith that if I somehow got the receiving end of a LEO's bad day that his coworkers bring him back in line and correct the situation.  I've seen folks who got on the bad side of an LEO in a manner that did not break the law, and I saw the multitude of petty revenge tricks that LEO's have at their disposal.  In basically every line of employment I've worked, I've been taught time and time again.  If I see a violation of the rules, I immediately stop it.  If I fail to do so, I will be punished.  Harshly.  I happen to agree with the philosophy.

All of those people who teach their children to fear the police, why do you think that is?  For scum and criminals, it's a bit obvious.  But what about the normal folks?   I am very thankful you have worked with good cops.  I know they are the majority.  But I question if the majority of the good cops would turn in a bad one.  Perhaps I am wrong, I certainly hope so.  I have in the past strongly cooperated with LEO's, usually federals, that I believed to be good cops.  Bad ones, I was helpful, cooperative, and stayed dumb as a post.

[MechAg94]

I really don't think stories about Chicago police and govt corruption really apply to the rest of the country.  At least it is more of a worst case and should be assumed as any sort of trend elsewhere.