Author Topic: Anarchy in the UK?  (Read 6333 times)

Iapetus

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Anarchy in the UK?
« on: November 21, 2007, 09:32:30 AM »
No, not a description of the current situation, but a suggestion.

I'm still not convinced that Anarchy would actually "work".  But increasingly, neither am I convinced that it could fail quite as badly as the current system.


See here for the latest examples of mind-bogglingly obscene stupidity from the UK/EU governments:


HM Revenue and Customs loose name, address, date of birth, National Insurance number and bank details of 25 million people.  In the post.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7103566.stm

EU fishing regulations result in fishermen dumping 60% of (high-quality and endangered) fish back in the sea, dead.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7103363.stm



Articles in full (better if you follow the links, as the formatting didn't copy very well):

Quote from: UK's families put on fraud alert
   
Two computer discs holding the personal details of all families in the UK with a child under 16 have gone missing.

The Child Benefit data on them includes name, address, date of birth, National Insurance number and, where relevant, bank details of 25 million people.

Chancellor Alistair Darling said there was no evidence the data had gone to criminals - but urged people to monitor bank accounts "for unusual activity".

The Conservatives described the incident as a "catastrophic" failure.

In an emergency statement to MPs, Mr Darling apologised for what he described as an "extremely serious failure on the part of HMRC to protect sensitive personal data entrusted to it in breach of its own guidelines".

MPs gasped as Mr Darling told them: "The missing information contains details of all Child Benefit recipients: records for 25 million individuals and 7.25 million families. "

The chancellor blamed mistakes by junior officials at HMRC, who he said had ignored security procedures when they sent information to the National Audit Office (NAO) for auditing.

Mr Darling told MPs: "Two password protected discs containing a full copy of HMRC's entire data in relation to the payment of child benefit was sent to the NAO, by HMRC's internal post system operated by the courier TNT.

The package was not recorded or registered. It appears the data has failed to reach the addressee in the NAO."

He added: "The police tell me that they have no reason to believe that this data has found its way into the wrong hands.

"The police are not aware of any evidence that it has been used for fraudulent purposes or criminal activity."

Fraud protection

The HMRC has set up a Child Benefit Helpline on 0845 302 1444 for customers who want more details.

The data was sent on 18 October and senior management at HMRC were told it was missing on 8 November and the chancellor on 10 November.

   
MISSING DATA INCLUDES...
National insurance number
Name, address and birth date
Partner's details
Names, sex and age of children
Bank/savings account details

Mr Darling said banks were adamant that they wanted as much time to prepare for his announcement as possible.

He added: "If someone is the innocent victim of fraud as a result of this incident, people can be assured they have protection under the Banking Code so they will not suffer any financial loss as a result."

Mr Darling said people should monitor their accounts "for any unusual activity".

Chairman resigns

The Metropolitan Police are investigating the disappearance of the two discs and the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), which monitors HMRC, is investigating the security breach.

Uniformed officers were earlier checking HMRC's offices in Washington, Tyne and Wear.

It is the latest and by far the most serious of a string of missing data incidents at HM Revenue and Customs.

   
WHAT CAN YOU DO?
Check your bank statements for odd transactions
Monitor your account if you bank online
Change your account password if it is a date of birth or name
Source: Apacs

How worried should you be?

HMRC chairman Paul Gray resigned earlier after the latest incident came to light.

Shadow Chancellor George Osborne said: "Let us be clear about the scale of this catastrophic mistake - the names, the addresses and the dates of birth of every child in the country are sitting on two computer discs that are apparently lost in the post, and the bank account details and National Insurance numbers of 10 million parents, guardians and carers have gone missing.

"Half the country will be very anxious about the safety of their family and the security and the whole country will be wondering how on earth the government allowed this to happen."

'Ancient' computers

He urged the government to "get a grip" and said it was the "final blow for the ambitions of this government to create a national ID database" as "they simply can not be trusted with people's personal information".

Liberal Democrat Acting Leader Vince Cable said it was now the Treasury and not the Home Office that was "not fit for purpose".

   
CHILD BENEFIT
Part of child benefit form
Available to the parents, normally mother, of every child in UK under 16
Older children in full-time education still eligible
Taken up by almost 100%
It amounts to ?18.10 a week for a first-born child
For subsequent children - it amounts to ?12.10 a week

Timeline: Benefit records loss

"Why does HMRC still use CDs for data transmission in this day and age? The ancient museum pieces it is currently using for computing must be replaced.

"After this disaster how can the public possibly have confidence in the vast centralised databases needed for the compulsory ID card scheme.

"Where does the buck stop after this catalogue of disasters?"

Giving his reaction, the Information Commissioner, Richard Thomas, said: "This is an extremely serious and disturbing security breach."

Mr Thomas welcomed the Chancellor's announcement of an independent review of the incident by Kieran Poynter of PricewaterhouseCoopers and said he would decide on further action once he has received the report.

"Searching questions need to be answered about systems, procedures and human error inside both HMRC and NAO," said Mr Thomas.

The prime minister's official spokeswoman said Gordon Brown has "full confidence" in Mr Darling. She added that Mr Darling has not offered to resign.

Quote from: Dumping North Sea fish 'immoral'
   
Trawlermen sort through fish
Phil Walsh's crew exceeded their cod quota by June

Jonathan Shaw
Fisheries Minister Jonathan Shaw has agreed that dumping thousands of tonnes of dead fish back into the sea because of EU fishing quotas is "immoral".

He said he supported the view of EU Fisheries Commissioner Joe Borg and would be pushing for quota increases.

The fishing industry has warned it faces ruin because fish caught after quotas are exceeded have to be dumped.

But environmentalists say quotas are necessary to protect stocks, and want to see a change in fishing practices.

40%-60% dumped

European Union quotas strictly limit the amount of fish that vessels can bring back to port, but there is no restriction on the amount of fish they actually catch.

BBC rural affairs correspondent Jeremy Cooke found that boats fishing in the "mixed fishery" of the North Sea often accidentally catch a species or size of fish which is above their quota and have to throw the "discard" back.

The EU estimates that between 40% and 60% of fish caught by trawlers in this area is dumped back into the sea.

   
Fish are thrown overboard

Dumping 'ruining industry'
Life behind the net

Mr Borg - who is instrumental in setting the laws and limits - described such discarding of fish as "immoral" but said there was no clear solution.

"The problem is when we come to work out the details of how to eliminate discarding but at the same time have sustainable fisheries - that is the big problem."

Mr Shaw said it was an "absolute waste" to throw good quality fish back into the sea.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme he would be pushing for an EU cod quota increase as well as looking at technological solutions, such as nets that would catch only certain kinds of fish.

"We have seen a recovery in cod in the North Sea in particular - now that is good news," he said.

   
HAVE YOUR SAY
We should take back control of British waters. Before the opening up of British waters to EU countries, these problems never existed
Simon Ward, London

Send us your comments

"So that is why we will be pressing the commission at the annual round in December for an increase in cod and hopefully that will help the fishermen."

Scotland's fisheries minister Richard Lochhead agreed that that an increase in the fish quotas was "essential, and justified by the science."

And he claimed his government was "leading the way" on fish conservation with a range of ideas developed with fishermen and environmental groups. These included voluntary closures of fishing areas and independent on-board observers to make sure young fish were not caught and then discarded.

Trawler skipper Phil Walsh told BBC News he had landed all of the cod he was allowed by June this year.

Since then, he has been fishing for prawns and dumping prime whiting, haddock and cod, which would fetch as much as ?13.50/kg on a supermarket shelf.

"I can't describe the feeling really," he said.

"It's your livelihood and you spend your life trying to catch it and then you have to throw it back over the side.

"It's an impossible situation and, unless it is sorted out soon, we will all be finished."

Marine protection

Many Scottish and English fishermen say they have seen a huge increase in the number of cod in the North Sea this year and now want an increase in the quota level for cod and other white fish they catch.

   
EU FISH QUOTAS
The European Commission's Fisheries Council meets to discuss fishing quotas every December
In 2006, it cut the amount of cod that could be caught in 2007 by between 14% and 20%
This meant UK fishing crews could catch 7,773 tonnes, down from 9,037 tonnes
The number of days cod fishing boats could spend at sea was also reduced by between 7% and 10%
This meant crews with the biggest nets could spend 155-156 days at sea, down from 163 days
However, many environmentalists want to see a total ban on cod fishing

UK fishing in figures
Should EU change policy?

"I feel very bitter because we've been so long trying to protect the cod," said trawler skipper David Mell.

"[We've had] decommissioning, increased our mesh size, we've been through a lot of pain really.... [But] I thought I would never see the day that I had to throw adult cod overboard."

But environmentalists, who have for years been sounding the alarm bell over the decline of North Sea fish stocks, say now is not the time to increase the amount being caught.

They say quotas are essential to ensure spawning stocks are allowed to mature and to breed.

But, like the fishermen, activists such as the World Wildlife Fund's Helen McLachlan agree that throwing dead cod back into the water is not the answer.

Instead, she said, there must be a change in fishing practices.

"Nobody wants discards," she said.

   
Fish

How trawlers work

"So let's not catch the fish in the first place.

"Let's avoid areas where there are going to be large spawning stocks of fish, let's avoid juveniles... let's use selective gear so [a fisherman can say], 'I will only catch prawns, I will not catch white fish'."

Oliver Knowles, a campaigner for Greenpeace, also believes quotas are not working for the UK's mixed fisheries.

He says the only answer is to stop fishing altogether in 40% of the world's oceans.

"Most importantly, I think you have got to create marine reserves. We don't have any proper protection for the marine environment.

"We are talking about a very large scale - about 40% - and Greenpeace isn't alone in calling for protected areas at around that size."

Len Budney

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2007, 12:40:05 PM »
I'm still not convinced that Anarchy would actually "work".  But increasingly, neither am I convinced that it could fail quite as badly as the current system.

Welcome, young Jedi! Most anarcho-capitalists would agree that anarchy will have problems. What makes us anarchists is that we believe that all statist solutions are even worse. The surest path to anarchy is to notice how bad things really are. It's hard to notice, though, because we're too accustomed to it. Fish can't see water.

--Len.
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K Frame

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2007, 02:40:42 PM »
For true anarchy to work depends on the good will of all people in the collective.

NEVER

WILL

HAPPEN.
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Balog

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2007, 04:49:30 PM »
That's a great song.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Manedwolf

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2007, 04:53:18 PM »
Anarchy never works.

Why?

Okay, you have some stuff you worked to make or produce.

I want your stuff. I don't want to work for it. But I'm bigger and stronger or have more guns, or a group of thugs. I come take your stuff. You can't stop me.

How can you stop me? You band together with neighbors in a community to provide support and defense of the group. When it's time to make decisions, you all have to come to an agreement. That leads to votes, or to a charismatic leader, or both.

And thus, society.


Len Budney

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2007, 08:16:08 PM »
I want your stuff. I don't want to work for it. But I'm bigger and stronger or have more guns, or a group of thugs. I come take your stuff. You can't stop me.

And thus government is born: while taking my stuff, you declare yourself "king" or "president" and start propagandizing why you deserve your loot, because you're "protecting" the people.

--Len.


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El Tejon

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2007, 04:29:09 AM »
The UK needs more anarchy.  Everyone not complying with those moronic regulations would be just waht the doctor ordered.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2007, 08:46:00 AM »
And thus government is born: while taking my stuff, you declare yourself "king" or "president" and start propagandizing why you deserve your loot, because you're "protecting" the people.

And he will be right to do so, because he is the lesser evil, and thus supporting him is the smart move on the side of the average citizen.

Tallpine

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2007, 09:30:43 AM »
Quote
lesser evil

Are you sure ...?

I figure that I have at least a fighting chance of out shooting a common criminal or even a gang of common criminals, but everyone pretty much agrees that you don't have a snowball's chance of out-shooting the government.  sad
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Manedwolf

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2007, 09:43:58 AM »
Quote
lesser evil

Are you sure ...?

I figure that I have at least a fighting chance of out shooting a common criminal or even a gang of common criminals, but everyone pretty much agrees that you don't have a snowball's chance of out-shooting the government.  sad

You want to live every day as a siege? Have someone on watch every night to keep people from trying to break in, or just shoot through your window? Every time you leave your home, chance that someone else will break and and take it over and not let you back in? Every highway full of highwaymen?

Life as a Mad Max film doesn't sound like so much fun to me.

Len Budney

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2007, 12:12:51 PM »
And thus government is born: while taking my stuff, you declare yourself "king" or "president" and start propagandizing why you deserve your loot, because you're "protecting" the people.

And he will be right to do so, because he is the lesser evil, and thus supporting him is the smart move on the side of the average citizen.

The strongest criminal is doing us a favor by protecting us from all the other criminals, and should be thanked for his crimes.  rolleyes

This post and your latest in another thread make the whole thing clear. It's impossible to discuss morality if one of our starting premises is amoral.

-Len.
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2007, 12:41:31 PM »
Quote
You want to live every day as a siege? Have someone on watch every night to keep people from trying to break in, or just shoot through your window? Every time you leave your home, chance that someone else will break and and take it over and not let you back in? Every highway full of highwaymen?

Oh yeah, I forgot - the cops prevent every home invasion, burglary, and car-jacking  rolleyes
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Len Budney

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2007, 03:29:08 PM »
Quote
You want to live every day as a siege? Have someone on watch every night...

Oh yeah, I forgot - the cops prevent every home invasion, burglary, and car-jacking  rolleyes

I actually find Maned's comments scary. He obviously can't speak for anyone but himself, since he isn't a mind reader nor clairvoyant. So his terrifying vision of the future tells us only one thing: what he would do if he weren't restrained by fear of the consequences.  shocked

Just once I'd love to hear a statist admit it bluntly and honestly, without laying it off on other people. Something like this: "If I weren't afraid of the police, I'd invade your home tonight, shoot your dog and eat all your Frito Lays. Aren't you glad I am afraid of the police?"

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Manedwolf

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2007, 04:06:30 PM »
Quote
You want to live every day as a siege? Have someone on watch every night to keep people from trying to break in, or just shoot through your window? Every time you leave your home, chance that someone else will break and and take it over and not let you back in? Every highway full of highwaymen?

Oh yeah, I forgot - the cops prevent every home invasion, burglary, and car-jacking  rolleyes

No, they do not. They investigate crimes. But if someone is breaking into your home or has taken over your home, you can call the police and let the law deal with it. That's what taxes are meant to be for.

Anarchy is "might rules", period. Those who want, take. Those who can, defend. Those who cannot, lose and die.

That's why it never works.

gunsmith

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2007, 12:18:54 AM »
Quote
Every highway full of highwaymen?

You mean the Highway Patrol??
Those guys that force me to pay excessive fines for not wearing a helmet when commencing to go 62 in a 55?

The guys who confiscate 25,000 dollar cars for having a oz of plant material market rate near gold?

The guys who would put me in jail for carrying a gun across a state line despite clear evidence  of RKBA?

I am an old punker who found Jesus and sobriety so I have a lot less to worry about then I did 20 plus years ago during the real punk anarchist days, but some days real anarchism (not mad max chaos) doesn't look half bad!

if all the gun owners said "screw it, we don't like your illegal laws, go jump in a lake Hillary"
what could they do?
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oldfart

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2007, 07:09:44 AM »
What many of you have portrayed as anarchy is just an advanced form of tyranny.  "Might makes right" only works as long as the 'mighty' one is indeed mighty.  As soon as someone comes along to knock him off his throne he reverts to being 'just one of the guys' albeit perhaps one with a grudge.

Anarchy, especially such as depicted in the "Mad Max" series of movies can be a bad thing.  Anarchy doesn't have to be bad though, there are societies in the world that live quite well without central control. 

Tyranny though, is always bad.  It requires some form of central control which tailors laws and rules to cover every possible possibility.  Thus the law that reduces the availability of guns in a crowded city also limits them to the farmer who wants to protect his herd from wolves.

The somewhat popular and famous quote from R.A. Heinlein describes an anarchy:  "An armed society is a polite society."

Len Budney

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2007, 11:56:46 AM »
What many of you have portrayed as anarchy is just an advanced form of tyranny.  "Might makes right" only works as long as the 'mighty' one is indeed mighty.

The only ones defining anarchy as "might makes right" are its detractors, like Maned. Anarchy, at least the capitalist variety, is the condition that nobody is allowed to touch another's person or property, in the slightest way, without the other's consent. Self-defense is allowed, as are defense contracts entered by mutual consent. Of course any contract entered by mutual consent of all concerned is allowed.

That's it. Simple as that.

--Len.

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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2007, 04:55:02 PM »
Quote
But if someone is breaking into your home or has taken over your home, you can call the police and let the law deal with it. That's what taxes are meant to be for.

Virtually every service conceivable by the mind of man is or has been offered by private businesses - and always at a cheaper price and better value that what government supposedly provides.

What makes you think that security services are any different?
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

brer

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2007, 05:08:52 PM »
If I call 911 it will be the better part of 45 minutes before someone responds.

Yet violent crime and property crime where I live is very low.

I doubt somehow the government is responsible.

yesitsloaded

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2007, 05:10:48 PM »
Quote
But if someone is breaking into your home or has taken over your home, you can call the police and let the law deal with it. That's what taxes are meant to be for.
Last time I checked, when my car was stolen the cops came by and took my information and drove off. They never got out of the car. The didn't even give me a tax refund for failing to recover my car. So basically I paid taxes for them to come over and write some stuff down and then go drive off.
Quote
or has taken over your home
So I call the cops when the local government takes my house to run a highway through what was my front yard?
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Tallpine

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2007, 06:54:23 AM »
Quote
If I call 911 it will be the better part of 45 minutes before someone responds.

Yet violent crime and property crime where I live is very low.

I doubt somehow the government is responsible.

That is exactly the case in my neighborhood as well Wink
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Otherguy Overby

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2007, 02:26:53 PM »
How soon we forget!  The "Wild West" was settled under Anarchy.  Government came later...
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gunsmith

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2007, 08:41:31 PM »
@ my friends ranch in northern NV it would be a few hours before the cops could come along, he likes it that way.
A sheriff regulary  drives by once every other day or so, one day my friend was tooling down the road on a atv from the "neighbors" house a few miles away, no helmet, drinking a beer, loaded AR15
on the rack.
The local sheriff stopped, leaned his head out the window, smiled and asked "having a good day"??
they chatted for a bit and after the sheriff left it made my friend wonder why it took him so long to leave CA angel police laugh grin
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Manedwolf

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2007, 04:07:14 AM »
How soon we forget!  The "Wild West" was settled under Anarchy.  Government came later...

Not really. The towns had some hard-ass sheriffs with deputies, they kept order. People got thrown in the jail even for public drunkenness if they were being a nuisance.


Len Budney

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Re: Anarchy in the UK?
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2007, 04:54:47 AM »
How soon we forget!  The "Wild West" was settled under Anarchy.  Government came later...

Not really. The towns had some hard-ass sheriffs with deputies, they kept order.

I was gonna respond to Otherguy with a crack about not watching enough westerns. But it's obvious Maned has watched enough westerns for the three of us.
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