A day that will live in infamy

[Jamisjockey]

....

[roo_ster]

Damn straight.

[Manedwolf]

There was an article recently about the official inspection dives to check the condition of the Arizona.

A lot of portholes on the hull are still intact. One even was only half-full of water, having had the inner cover closed...the air in the upper half is air trapped on Dec 7, 1941.

Another diver was able to see inside a cabin with a ship's phone still mounted on the wall.

And another just felt like, going by some of the portholes, that someone's face might appear at one of them, looking back out at them.

[Paddy]

I wonder how long before the FDR bashers come along and blame him for the attack on Pearl Harbor. 

[roo_ster]

I wonder how long before the FDR bashers come along and blame him for the attack on Pearl Harbor. 

There is so much to bash FDR for that occurred before 1941, that there is no need to indulge in tinfoil hattery to give his reputation a swift kick to the jimmy.

[K Frame]

And everyone knows that it was really George Bush's fault...

[Paddy]

There is so much to bash FDR for that occurred before 1941, that there is no need to indulge in tinfoil hattery to give his reputation a swift kick to the jimmy.

Like creating a prosperous middle class through progressive taxation, social security, fair labor laws and enforcement of anti trust laws?   Thereby paving the way for the biggest economic boom in the history of the world from 1940 to 1980?

[K Frame]

Yeah, the late 1960s through 1980 were just WONDERFULLY prosperous times in the United States...

 

[Paddy]

Yeah, the late 1960s through 1980 were just WONDERFULLY prosperous times in the United States...

Yes, if you will recall there were several things that contributed significantly to the economic downturn of the seventies.  Excessive spending on the unnecessary Vietnam war; Withdrawal from the Bretton Woods Accord ending the gold standard followed by a significant devaluation of the dollar; OPEC's cutting off oil to the Western supporters of Israel.

These would have run their cycle leaving a large prosperous middle class intact.  Reagan, however, came along and killed off the middle class with huge tax cuts for the extremely wealthy and a huge tax increase (in the form of social security rate increases on payroll) for the working middle class.  He transferred the tax burden from the rich to the rest of us, and then, ripped off the social security fund and spent the money.

[K Frame]

"Reagan, however, came along and killed off the middle class with huge tax cuts for the extremely wealthy and a huge tax increase (in the form of social security rate increases on payroll) for the working middle class."

That's funny, my family, and virtually everyone in the town where we lived, as well as most of the people in my area of Central Pennsylvania, were then, and remain today, solidly middle class.

Reagan's supposed destruction of the middle class is lie propagated by the worst of the liberal wealth redistribution crowd. They use it to make their case that Reagan's tax cuts moved most of the middle class to the rich class, effectively reducing their tax burden and placing it on the backs of the poor.

The Social Security tax on the wealthy canard is also a huge pile of twaddle. The wealthy class don't need social security benefits. They should be allowed to opt out of it, both collecting benefits AND paying taxes.

Why should the wealthy be forced to subsidize a system that they don't need?

Oh, wait, silly me...

Wealth redistribution.

[RoadKingLarry]

To each according to his need, from each according to his ability....

[Paddy]

Wealth redistribution is a fact.  However, the income shift is away from working middle class people to corporations and the wealthiest 1%.  In 1970, wages and salaries constituted some 54% of GDP.  By 2006 the percentage was down to 45%.  Each percentage point equals about $132 billion.  That's over a trillion dollars of wealth distribution from working people to the very wealthy every year.  This is being accomplished by mechanisms such as healthcare cost shifting from employers to workers; nonpayment of unfunded pension liabilities to retired workers; discontinuance of defined pension plans, offshoring, outsourcing, and the continuing transfer of hundreds of billions of $ from social security contributions to the general fund every year, and the list goes on and on.

No, the wealthy don't need social security and benefits should be means tested.  If the government is going to continue to steal and spend the money, just like it's an 'income tax', then the wealthy can damn well continue to pay into it.

[Manedwolf]

I want out of Social Security, myself. It's a total joke. I'll never see that money, it'll be long gone, given to the baby boomers more than 30 years before I retire.

I'd rather invest the money myself. IRAs, whatever.

It's MY money. Why do I have to throw it into a pot everyone else has their hands in, and hope I can get some scrapings out many, many years from now?

[Paddy]

To each according to his need, from each according to his ability....

More like to each according to his greed, from each according to his government's failure to protect and represent the common man.......

[grislyatoms]

I remember watching WWII documentaries on t.v. with my Grandad. (Victory at Sea and such).

He would get tears in his eyes when he watched the Pacific Fleet burning at Pearl Harbor.

Grandad was a Navy Pilot. Flew the PBY Catalina in the North and South Atlantic. I have his wings at home.

Great Uncle was an A.A.F Pilot. Flew the B-24 in the Pacific.

Another Great Uncle lost the lower half of his leg somewhere in France. Near miss from what he believes was an 88mm.

Their generation is disappearing.

(I'm going to leave it at that before I say something corny. )

[Paddy]

I want out of Social Security, myself. It's a total joke. I'll never see that money, it'll be long gone, given to the baby boomers more than 30 years before I retire.

That's the lie they want you to believe.  The truth is, the boomers were the first generation to actually prepay their own retirement as a result of Reagan's huge social security rate increases.  Every President since Reagan has taken that money and spent it. 

Had the $trillions put into social security by the boomers in the last 40 years been left alone, there would be no problem today.

[Art Eatman]

I'm with Mike Irwin on the Reagan effects.  He ran on the same platform as JFK:  "Reduce taxes and get the government off the backs of business."  Be that as it may, his policies and those of his advisors set off an economic boom even greater that what JFK passed along to LBJ.  

Easy enough to do some comparing.  Carter's era began with a $400 billion budget; ended with a $700 billion budget to pass along to Reagan.  Four years, a 75% increase.  Even with the tax cuts, the Reagan years saw the budget (and income) grow from $700 billion to $1.1 trillion.  60% in eight years; a much slower rate of increase--with a much larger economy to feed the fed.

And for those who do not understand how Congress functions, the "Reagan Deficits" would be more accurately described as "Rostenkowski Deficits", as he was the Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, whence cometh ALL federal spending.

Pearl Harbor?  It was cold and clear, that night, in Austin.  Lotsa moon.  We had Texas Panhandle relatives down for a visit.  No TV, back then.  The radio news folks did the best they could, given all the communications problems of the era.  Rumors and a certain amount of panic swept the west coast, for sure.  Then came the newsreels at the movie theaters...

My stepfather was a B-24 co-pilot on Guadalcanal.  I had cousins interned in the Philippines.  My father went ashore on D-Day.

I was in Times Square for VJ night.  Probably the happiest day in U.S. history.  The next day?  Wow!  Were my folks hungover!!!!!  

Trivium:  Honduras declared war on Japan before the U.S. Congress did.

[Brad Johnson]

However, the income shift is away from working middle class people to corporations and the wealthiest 1%.

Which, in turn, use that income to hire people, provide jobs, and make investments that, in turn, helps companies to hire people and provide jobs which, in turn, provides a demand for companies that produce products, so they have to hire people and provide jobs...

Brad

[RevDisk]

Yesterday, December 7th, 1941 -- a date which will live in infamy -- the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with its government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in the American island of Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleague delivered to our Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. And while this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or of armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. I regret to tell you that very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday, the Japanese government also launched an attack against Malaya.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Guam.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.

Last night, the Japanese attacked Wake Island.

And this morning, the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday and today speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.



As commander in chief of the Army and Navy, I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense. But always will our whole nation remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.

I believe that I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make it very certain that this form of treachery shall never again endanger us.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory, and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces, with the unbounding determination of our people, we will gain the inevitable triumph -- so help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, December 7th, 1941, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire.

[K Frame]

"Wealth redistribution is a fact."

No, wealth redistribution is a CRIME.

[Jamisjockey]

Serious thread drift.  Too bad I can't threaten to shut this one down....
Maybe if I insult Irwin it will get shut down.

[K Frame]

Try again.

[Brad Johnson]

The Discovery channel had someone recently about the Arizona.  They were using film clips to show the propagation of the blast.  It even showed (probably) where the bomb hit the deck.

I've been to the Arizona memorial. Somber place. Makes you think.

Brad

[Paddy]

Easy enough to do some comparing.  Carter's era began with a $400 billion budget; ended with a $700 billion budget to pass along to Reagan.  Four years, a 75% increase.  Even with the tax cuts, the Reagan years saw the budget (and income) grow from $700 billion to $1.1 trillion.  60% in eight years; a much slower rate of increase--with a much larger economy to feed the fed.

The public debt doubled under Reagan-from $500 billion to over a trillion dollars. Reagan left record debt in his wake as a result of record government spending. The tax cuts simply transferred the tax burden from the wealthy to the working middle class. So-called 'trickle down economics' did create millions of jobs, just not in the United States.  Those jobs went to third world countries who could provide cheap slave labor.

Which, in turn, use that income to hire people, provide jobs, and make investments that, in turn, helps companies to hire people and provide jobs which, in turn, provides a demand for companies that produce products, so they have to hire people and provide jobs...

That's the sales pitch, but the reality is that investment and those jobs are in third world countries, not in the United States.

Serious thread drift.

I'll stop contributing to it. 

[280plus]

 The Island of Oahu , with its military depots, both naval and land, its airdromes, water supplies, the city of Honolulu with its wharves and supply points, forms an easy, compact, and convenient object for air attack... I believe therefore, that should Japan decide upon the reduction and seizure of the Hawaiian Islands ... attack will be launch-ed at Ford's Island at 7:30 A.M.   
       - General William Mitchell
          (memorandum for the Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army, 1924) 





              I can run wild for six months... after that, I have no expectation of success.
        - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto  (to the Japanese cabinet, circa 1940

Yesterday, December 7, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan . 
                          - Franklin D. Roosevelt (to Congress, 8 December 1941) 

Throughout the action, there was never the slightest sign of faltering or cowardice.
The actions of the officers and men were wholly commendable; there was no panic, no
shirking or flinching, and words fail to describe the truly magnificent display of courage, discipline, and devotion of duty of all.   
          - Report by the Executive Officer of USS West Virginia after Pearl Harbor   

 



                            Far-stretching, endless Time

                            Brings forth all hidden things,

                            And buries that which once did shine.

                            The firm resolve falters, the sacred oath is shattered;

                            And let none say, "It cannot happen here."
                                           - Sophocles