Author Topic: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test  (Read 11152 times)

KD5NRH

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2016, 03:39:11 PM »
I've seen him knock down in one sitting what I eat in 3 days

Half a bag of Toll House cookies and a pint of Mrs. Claus's eggnog?

Balog

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2016, 04:20:19 PM »
Bwahahahahahahaa!  Clearly you've never seen how quickly the dessert table gets demolished at a LDS singles potluck.

Setting out anything with chocolate is like dropping an open can of tuna into a pack of starving rabid cats.

That is a separate sentence pointing out another legal yet addictive substance, not a direct continuation of the first. I can see how you would be confused.
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Balog

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2016, 04:21:17 PM »
When employers have trouble keeping employees or even hiring, they may begin to reconsider how they test. will whine about it on internet forums.

Already there boss.
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I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

HForrest

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2016, 06:46:01 PM »
I wonder how folks defending drug testing would feel if alcohol could be detected a month after use like marijuana can, and was regularly used to screen employees for suitability.

mtnbkr

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2016, 08:13:40 PM »
I wonder how folks defending drug testing would feel if alcohol could be detected a month after use like marijuana can, and was regularly used to screen employees for suitability.

That's essentially what I've been asking.  What makes a functional alcohol addict superior to a functional cannabis addict other than one is currently illegal (though both have been illegal within the last 100 years).

I care very much about the bureaucratic accretion of laws and regs  and case law that have the potential to develop and strangle freedom of association if folk keep conflating pot and alcohol use. 
Umm ok?  I'm not talking about laws, new or old, I'm asking why is one addict acceptable and the other worthy of death.  You keep dancing around that question.

Quote
Given recent history of supposed increases in liberty, I would vote in favor of plugging pot users every day of the week and twice on Sundays over giving up yet more freedom of association. 
Got it, you want to kill pot users.  Good to know. 

Quote
Firethorn went into why it can be handy for an employer to have a "Get Out of Employer Free" card.
Got no problem with that, but it isn't what I was asking.

Chris

Regolith

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2016, 09:28:05 PM »
Given recent history of supposed increases in liberty, I would vote in favor of plugging pot users every day of the week and twice on Sundays over giving up yet more freedom of association. 

You want to destroy people's liberty, in the most extreme way possible, because of the mere possibility that we might lose an ounce of liberty in the future?

Are you listening to yourself?
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2016, 10:14:50 PM »
I'm sitting over here chuckling at some of the assumptions made about pot smokers...

I hate to tell you guys *cough cough rooster cough cough* but plenty of people who you would not immediately identify as recreational drug users smoke up without the counter culture stoner identity.

As far as hiring/firing based on impairment, I too would like to see a better way to test for actual inebriation rather than find out if someone toked up on their last weekend off.

I would also love to see roosters little world implode if everyone he knew lined up with t-shirts declaring if they smoked pot or not. I'm betting there would be a lot more than he'd ever guess (and people he actually like too  :rofl: )
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KD5NRH

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2016, 09:22:31 AM »
I hate to tell you guys *cough cough rooster cough cough* but plenty of people who you would not immediately identify as recreational drug users smoke up without the counter culture stoner identity.

One of the biggest Friday night potheads I've known was a drug and alcohol counselor.  Absolutely clean all week, but 5:00 Friday until Saturday morning was party time.

Balog

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2016, 11:19:30 AM »
It's probably because I live in Seattle, but I've had a job where I was the only person on a team of > a dozen successful professional people who didn't at least occasionally smoke pot.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

MikeB

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2016, 08:22:44 PM »
It's probably because I live in Seattle, but I've had a job where I was the only person on a team of > a dozen successful professional people who didn't at least occasionally smoke pot.

When I lived in CO twenty years ago I had pretty much the same experience at a job and then as an IT consultant working for several professionals, Lawyers, Accountants, various business owners who employed dozens to hundreds of people. Wasn't surprised at all it became legal there.

roo_ster

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2016, 11:11:04 AM »
Got it, you want to kill pot users.  Good to know. 

Golly-gee that would be terrible were it not a straw man erected from a tendentious reading of my posts.

You want to destroy people's liberty, in the most extreme way possible, because of the mere possibility that we might lose an ounce of liberty in the future?

Are you listening to yourself?

Again, read my posts, not mtbkr's pearl-clutching.

============================

Really, folks, does no one think past the first move? 

1. Legalize pot.  Woo-hoo.  Isn't that wonderful. 

Too bad it has zero effect on the War on Drugs and the liberty-crushing policy that grows from it.  So, all the WoSD abuses remain, but now we have more stoners and have to tolerate not only cigarette smoke in public, but also wacky tobacky smoke in public.   

2. Disability & Discrimination
Q. Are alcoholics covered by the ADA?

A. Yes. While a current illegal user of drugs is not protected by the ADA if an employer acts on the basis of such use, a person who currently uses alcohol is not automatically denied protection. An alcoholic is a person with a disability and is protected by the ADA if s/he is qualified to perform the essential functions of the job. An employer may be required to provide an accommodation to an alcoholic. However, an employer can discipline, discharge or deny employment to an alcoholic whose use of alcohol adversely affects job performance or conduct. An employer also may prohibit the use of alcohol in the workplace and can require that employees not be under the influence of alcohol.

The Social Security Administration (SSA) cannot find you disabled based solely on your diagnosis of chronic alcoholism. However, many people who suffer from chronic alcoholism have physical or behavioral changes that limit their ability to function in a work situation and that are caused by their chronic use of alcohol. The SSA will not treat your claim any worse because your impairment is a result of chronic alcoholism.

All in all, it is a diminution of liberty, a greater financial burden, and a less pleasant public sphere for everyone who does not smoke pot.  Screw that noise.  Shoot the stoners first.

[libertoid: Oh, but roo_ster, that is not the fault of pot users!  That is the fault of over-intrusive gov't. First, we need to eliminate the ADA and entitlement programs...

roo_ster: Yeah, I 'll just let that sit there for a moment.

roo_ster: If your quirky little plan for liberty will result in less liberty unless it requires HUGE upheavals in gov't and society, your quirky little plan for liberty sucks.  After marxist leftists, I am not sure who is more delusional: economists or libertarians?]

===========================

I'm sitting over here chuckling at some of the assumptions made about pot smokers...

I hate to tell you guys *cough cough rooster cough cough* but plenty of people who you would not immediately identify as recreational drug users smoke up without the counter culture stoner identity.

As far as hiring/firing based on impairment, I too would like to see a better way to test for actual inebriation rather than find out if someone toked up on their last weekend off.

I would also love to see roosters little world implode if everyone he knew lined up with t-shirts declaring if they smoked pot or not. I'm betting there would be a lot more than he'd ever guess (and people he actually like too  :rofl: )

I thought I'd left the junior high decades back, but here we are with folk yukking it up whilst acting as if they know something more than they really do.  My wife will regale me with a tale of someone all grown up acting in a peculiar, usually petty,  manner.  I will remind her, "Hon, some folks just never left junior high.  Oh, their bodies aged out, but their heads never left." 
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

mtnbkr

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2016, 02:25:25 PM »
Golly-gee that would be terrible were it not a straw man erected from a tendentious reading of my posts.

Really?  Because you said it thrice:
I say keep pot illegal and shoot the vendors & users out of hand.
I would vote in favor of plugging pot users every day of the week and twice on Sundays over giving up yet more freedom of association. 
Shoot the stoners first.

Again, read my posts, not mtbkr's pearl-clutching.
It's "pearl-clutching" to ask a direct question and expect a direct answer, not a bunch of attempts to talk around or distract from that question? 

Really, folks, does no one think past the first move? 

1. Legalize pot.  Woo-hoo.  Isn't that wonderful. 

Too bad it has zero effect on the War on Drugs and the liberty-crushing policy that grows from it.  So, all the WoSD abuses remain, but now we have more stoners and have to tolerate not only cigarette smoke in public, but also wacky tobacky smoke in public.   
Gotta start somewhere with the WoD.  Pot is low risk and partially accepted already.  Also, we don't allow public drunkenness or even drinking in public in many places, so why do you expect smoking pot in public will be permissible?

2. Disability & Discrimination
All in all, it is a diminution of liberty, a greater financial burden, and a less pleasant public sphere for everyone who does not smoke pot.  Screw that noise.  Shoot the stoners first.

[libertoid: Oh, but roo_ster, that is not the fault of pot users!  That is the fault of over-intrusive gov't. First, we need to eliminate the ADA and entitlement programs...

roo_ster: Yeah, I 'll just let that sit there for a moment.

roo_ster: If your quirky little plan for liberty will result in less liberty unless it requires HUGE upheavals in gov't and society, your quirky little plan for liberty sucks.  After marxist leftists, I am not sure who is more delusional: economists or libertarians?]

So, because someone *might* abuse SS we need to keep pot illegal?  Why stop there?  Why not return to Prohibition full force?  After all, your argument against legalization of pot is that a small percentage of abusers may also abuse SS the way that alcoholics might be abusing SS.  We can solve that problem with the same tactic.  Why should alcohol be legal if it's the root of such egregious abuse?

I see you still haven't addressed the original question, which is:
[q]Why is alcohol abuse preferable to pot use?    Let's go a bit further in an effort to focus the discussion just a bit.  This is absent any criminal activities, both substances are legal, and neither user is inebriated at work or while operating heavy machinery (or while managing your retirement fund).[/b]

Do you think you can answer that without making assumptions about what reductions in liberty will result or how the dirty potheads will abuse govt programs?  Just explain why society loves the lush and hates the toker. 

Chris

Firethorn

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2016, 03:21:08 PM »
Golly-gee that would be terrible were it not a straw man erected from a tendentious reading of my posts.

Wow, it's not every day I have to google vocabulary.  Congratulations.  That being said, I pretty much completely agree with mtnbkr.

All we're doing is taking you at your word!  You're up to 3 mentions, talking about doing it again in this very post!

Quote
Too bad it has zero effect on the War on Drugs and the liberty-crushing policy that grows from it.  So, all the WoSD abuses remain, but now we have more stoners and have to tolerate not only cigarette smoke in public, but also wacky tobacky smoke in public.   

You know what a slippery slope is, obviously, so why do you fall back on one so quickly?  Tolerance of cigarette smoke in public is already at an all time low.  Public drug use is at an all time low - you're expected to not be drunk in public, you can't smoke in 'most' public buildings and areas, etc...

Quote
2. Disability & Discrimination
All in all, it is a diminution of liberty, a greater financial burden, and a less pleasant public sphere for everyone who does not smoke pot.  Screw that noise.  Shoot the stoners first.

And we reach the mandatory mentioning of killing weed users.  I'd also rate this as much more pearl clutching, because you're grasping at straws for this sort of stuff, assuming what I see as a worst case scenario.

Quote
[libertoid: Oh, but roo_ster, that is not the fault of pot users!  That is the fault of over-intrusive gov't. First, we need to eliminate the ADA and entitlement programs...

"libertoid" isn't very high road.  Also, the expense of weed use is still very much up in the air, and likely less than cigarettes and alcohol.

Quote
roo_ster: If your quirky little plan for liberty will result in less liberty unless it requires HUGE upheavals in gov't and society, your quirky little plan for liberty sucks.  After marxist leftists, I am not sure who is more delusional: economists or libertarians?]

It only results in 'less liberty', to use your vocabulary, using a very tendentious reading.

Jamisjockey

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2016, 08:32:13 PM »
Golly-gee that would be terrible were it not a straw man erected from a tendentious reading of my posts.

Again, read my posts, not mtbkr's pearl-clutching.

============================

Really, folks, does no one think past the first move? 

1. Legalize pot.  Woo-hoo.  Isn't that wonderful. 

Too bad it has zero effect on the War on Drugs and the liberty-crushing policy that grows from it.  So, all the WoSD abuses remain, but now we have more stoners and have to tolerate not only cigarette smoke in public, but also wacky tobacky smoke in public.   

2. Disability & Discrimination
All in all, it is a diminution of liberty, a greater financial burden, and a less pleasant public sphere for everyone who does not smoke pot.  Screw that noise.  Shoot the stoners first.

[libertoid: Oh, but roo_ster, that is not the fault of pot users!  That is the fault of over-intrusive gov't. First, we need to eliminate the ADA and entitlement programs...

roo_ster: Yeah, I 'll just let that sit there for a moment.

roo_ster: If your quirky little plan for liberty will result in less liberty unless it requires HUGE upheavals in gov't and society, your quirky little plan for liberty sucks.  After marxist leftists, I am not sure who is more delusional: economists or libertarians?]

===========================

I thought I'd left the junior high decades back, but here we are with folk yukking it up whilst acting as if they know something more than they really do.  My wife will regale me with a tale of someone all grown up acting in a peculiar, usually petty,  manner.  I will remind her, "Hon, some folks just never left junior high.  Oh, their bodies aged out, but their heads never left." 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA



 :rofl:

 :rofl:

 :rofl:

Oh.  It's not satire? 
You believe the tripe you're spouting?
Whoops.
JD

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Balog

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2016, 10:02:59 AM »
Speaking as a resident of a state where recreational marijuana is legal, I can confidently say that none of the second order effects predicted by our resident neo-nazi have come to pass.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2016, 10:30:48 AM »
The more important question, is "are these employers providing study materials for the drug tests?"

mtnbkr

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2016, 10:35:18 AM »
Speaking as a resident of a state where recreational marijuana is legal, I can confidently say that none of the second order effects predicted by our resident neo-nazi have come to pass.

That's because true patriots are shooting druggies in the face. :rofl:

Chris

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2016, 12:22:37 PM »
https://youtu.be/W_i2mC5fAmI

Louder With Crowder on Pot with expert guest.
I might not last very long or be very effective but I'll be a real pain in the ass for a minute!
MOLON LABE!

roo_ster

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2016, 12:52:31 PM »
Speaking as a resident of a state where recreational marijuana is legal, I can confidently say that none of the second order effects predicted by our resident neo-nazi have come to pass.

So, the war on drugs has ended in your state since y'all legalized pot?  Cool.  And unexpected, given the news articles such as the following that still come from that corner of the USA:
http://q13fox.com/2016/03/09/dea-raids-suspected-fentanyl-lab-in-south-seattle-neighborhood-its-50-times-more-potent-than-heroin-and-its-a-hundred-times-more-potent-than-morphine/
http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/king-county-detectives-lead-bust-of-high-level-drug-ring/249577303

As for the federal disability and anti-discrimination programs, I would expect those changes only when pot is legalized at the national level, especially if folk follow mtnbkr's alcohol ~ pot analogy. 

Of course employers up there are not nearly as sanguine as many on this board as to the knock-on effects of legalization:
http://www.westsoundworkforce.com/what-washington-state-marijuana-legalization-means-for-employers/



That's because true patriots are shooting druggies in the face.

And we reach the mandatory mentioning of killing weed users. I'd also rate this as much more pearl clutching, because you're grasping at straws for this sort of stuff, assuming what I see as a worst case scenario.

Another swing & miss.  Do please point out where I called for mandatory killing of pot users.  Every single mention was as part of a trade-off.

It only results in 'less liberty', to use your vocabulary, using a very tendentious reading.

It results in less liberty given a reasonable reading of the literature, especially in the light of an analogy to ethyl alcohol as applied to employment law, disability, and freedom of association.  Expect litigation making it so if not included with the legislation.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

roo_ster

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2016, 01:04:47 PM »
FYI, back in 1990, 73% of those polled favored or strongly favored the death penalty for drug traffickers:
https://books.google.com/books?id=U7Nx-lwlaQAC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=poll+americans+support+%22death+penalty+for+drug%22&source=bl&ots=Pq3AvBq__q&sig=2IpABpqBCuNHa_JEngAqIOzq40k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj9j8fI1fDMAhUF0h4KHZe8CkMQ6AEIRTAG#v=onepage&q=poll%20americans%20support%20%22death%20penalty%20for%20drug%22&f=false

I am surprised by how large was that proportion.  I would expect current polling to show less support given the reduction in violent crime since 1990 and the demographic changes.
Regards,

roo_ster

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----G.K. Chesterton

Firethorn

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Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2016, 01:52:35 PM »
So, the war on drugs has ended in your state since y'all legalized pot?  Cool.

Non Sequitur.  Those of us who support ending the war on drugs have already outright stated that legalizing marijuana is only a first step.  We didn't get 50 state CCW overnight, after all.  Heck, we still have a lot of progress to make.

Quote
And unexpected, given the news articles such as the following that still come from that corner of the USA:
http://q13fox.com/2016/03/09/dea-raids-suspected-fentanyl-lab-in-south-seattle-neighborhood-its-50-times-more-potent-than-heroin-and-its-a-hundred-times-more-potent-than-morphine/
http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/king-county-detectives-lead-bust-of-high-level-drug-ring/249577303

Why'd you not expect it?  I certainly find it unsurprising.  They're still an unregulated illegal drug lab.

Quote
As for the federal disability and anti-discrimination programs, I would expect those changes only when pot is legalized at the national level, especially if folk follow mtnbkr's alcohol ~ pot analogy. 

You know, if this topic was on guns, I've come to the realization that you'd be a FUDD?  You're not giving the impression of being for freedom - unless it affects you personally.

Quote
Of course employers up there are not nearly as sanguine as many on this board as to the knock-on effects of legalization:
http://www.westsoundworkforce.com/what-washington-state-marijuana-legalization-means-for-employers/

And what's wrong with this?  We've already covered how tests that actually look for current/recent impairment by marijuana will probably need to be developed. 

Quote
Another swing & miss.  Do please point out where I called for mandatory killing of pot users.  Every single mention was as part of a trade-off.

Dude, you've advocated it three times.  We've quoted those three times.  That it's 'part of a trade-off' doesn't detract that it's a call for death.

Quote
It results in less liberty given a reasonable reading of the literature, especially in the light of an analogy to ethyl alcohol as applied to employment law, disability, and freedom of association.  Expect litigation making it so if not included with the legislation.

Freedom of association?  Employment law?  I'd argue that your 'intrusion in the freedom of association' is the result of already existing intrusions.  Your very 'citation' mentions that employers still have the power to drug test and inform their employees that they can be fired if they pop positive.

So you're arguing FOR a restriction on liberty, the right to use what drugs you want, in order to suppress a theoretical intrusion on liberty - the freedom for businesses to set the rules they want.

I am surprised by how large was that proportion.  I would expect current polling to show less support given the reduction in violent crime since 1990 and the demographic changes.

I'm not surprised.  Remember, the image of a drug dealer, trafficker, at the time was Scarface.  Today?  It's Nancy Botwin(Weeds).

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2016, 03:01:51 PM »
Speaking as a resident of a state where recreational marijuana is legal, I can confidently say that none of the second order effects predicted by our resident neo-nazi have come to pass.
None?
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/10/news/stoned-driving-fatal-accidents/
Really?

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2016, 03:04:45 PM »
And then this conservative rag weighs in
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/crime-is-up-in-colorado-w_b_5663046.html

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re:
« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2016, 03:07:41 PM »
And this doesn't count either
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2015/09/15/feds-release-marijuana-stats-to-show-negative-effects-of-legalization/

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Firethorn

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Re: Re: Try to find employees who can pass a drug test
« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2016, 03:19:18 PM »
None?
http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/10/news/stoned-driving-fatal-accidents/
Really?

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Troubling.  I wouldn't count it for anything if the death rate had remained flat, but fatalities are UP in Washington state.

http://wtsc.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2016/05/2014_Annual_Collision_Summary.pdf

Also, it sounds like Colorado could use a campaign to bust those giving weed to minors.  I have less than zero objections to that.