Author Topic: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People  (Read 2664 times)

Monkeyleg

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One of the first books my father had me read when I was heading into junior high was Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People." For its time, it was a useful book.

The techniques are centuries-old, but still hold true.

In online forums like APS, though, I'm not sure.

In another thread, I made comments that were intended to delve deeper into the subject, as well as into the problems the original poster is experiencing.

Instead, it would appear that I riled some feathers, including those of one of our most respected forum members.

Forums have smilies so that posters can try to indicate the intent of their posts.

But, without really knowing the poster personally, and without being able to hear or speak with inflections of voice, establish eye contact, or view or use body language, things still get lost in the translation.

Somewhere out there must be an internet version of the Carnegie course.

Meanwhile, though, I'd just like to apologize to The Rabbi and any others who have been following that thread. It wasn't my intention to downplay anyone's experiences with anxiety, or elevate myself to some special "victim" status.

In a few days, I expect that emotions will cool down, and then perhaps we can start a thread where those willing to do so can describe their experiences with anxiety and panic attacks.

In the meantime, if someone has an idea on how to make internet conversations more clear and personal, have at it.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2006, 12:30:10 AM »
The internet has a semi-mystical ability to piss people off.  Conversations that would be civil if held in person often degenerate into pissing contests when they take place online.  I'll leave it the psychiatrists to figure out the pathology behind it.  It's enough for our purposes to recognize that it happens.

You gotta have a thick skin when you deal with people online.  There are two sides of this coin.  First, you can't take undue offense when someone says something you may not like.  Second, you can't take it personally when someone else is offended by what you say. 

If you and Rabbi are having issues, just forget about it.  It isn't personal, and it isn't either of your faults.  That's just the way this medium is.  Just forget about it and move on.  It isn't worth the heartburn, and it isn't worth losing any good members over.

280plus

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2006, 01:24:54 AM »
Yea, it's just the inability to see facial expression and hear voice inflection that causes most problems. The smilies help but sometimes a poor choice of smilies can casue problems too. Personally, I wasn't offended by anything that went on in that thread. I thought maybe the Rabbi was being a bit touchy but heck, that's the Rabbi we all know and love.  grin
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Perd Hapley

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2006, 03:04:44 AM »
This thread has been duly reported.  I hope you all get banned.   angry



 smiley
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The Rabbi

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2006, 03:22:11 AM »
This thread has been duly reported.  I hope you all get banned.   angry



 smiley

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Perd Hapley

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2006, 03:26:05 AM »
Rabbi, you won't get banned.  You're "respected."   laugh cheesy laugh cheesy grin laugh grin cheesy grin
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lee n. field

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2006, 03:30:19 AM »
Quote
Somewhere out there must be an internet version of the Carnegie course.

1)Ignore the trolls.

2)Try not to take it all too seriously.  This shouldn't be your real life.

3)On the Internet anybody can say anything or pretend to be anyone.  Keep your BS filter running and don't believe everything you read in an Internet forum.

4)Lots of people don't "get" subtle humor.   Think "Three Stooges" vs. "Being There".

5)If a thread is going south, drop it.  Life's too short.

6)Don't be like Gunkid
In thy presence is fulness of joy.
At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

Nightfall

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2006, 06:56:35 AM »
Personally, I just have to assume the absolute best about everybody's intentions in their post no matter how it may appear, or else it becomes far too easy to see things that (as it usually turns out) aren't there. Hard to do sometimes with some of the more serious threads here, though. Tongue
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El Tejon

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2006, 07:41:49 AM »
Bah, some people live to be offended.  It's the American way! grin

I take great exception to what I have just posted and demand an apology from myself. police
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Ezekiel

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2006, 08:13:47 AM »
*expletive deleted*it happens.

I enjoy pondering alternative views to queries, often playing Devil's Advocate just for enlightenment.

I do find, however, that things seem to go more smoothly when doing so in a group, over good food, with an ultra hoppy brew at my side.  In a perfect world, a variety of topics and opinions accumulate, to be savored and explored further over an excellent cigar...

The Internet doesn't always lend itself to such, but I can get my intellectual "fix" 24-7.

You just have to think of boards as a slice of America: some folks are geniuses, but most folks aren't.  In general, everyone is threatened -- at some level -- when their views are challenged.

It's no big deal.
Zeke

MechAg94

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2006, 10:29:55 AM »
I think emotion sometimes is in the mind of the reader.  You can read a post the first time and feel like it is directed at you personally, then come back in a few minutes and realize it isn't.  I have written out terse responses a number of times and just decided to delete them without posting.  Angry responses rarely help the discussion in my experience. 

On the other side, a lot of posters I see fail to fully explain their position precisely and sometimes their ideas sound half baked.  Being very precise with the English language is very difficult.  I have heard it said that English is the worst langauge to tranlate into.  Whole paragraphs are required to explain a single phrase in another language. 

I am sure I have been guilty of all of the above.  Smiley
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Eleven Mike

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2006, 11:00:35 AM »
This has been said before, but an internet forum has the same sort of anonymity that fosters road-rage.  When driving, most people don't know who you are and won't see you again, so you feel that you can get away with certain things.  The drivers around you are similarly unknown to you, so it's tempting to place little value on their feelings, or even their lives.  A forum is a bit different, because everything you've said is plain to see, but ultimately there is not much accountability.  The others on the forum may not even seem like people - as long as you stick to a narrow range of controversial topics, they may be nothing more to you than the other side, the enemy.  I've noticed I have a little more sympathy and respect for other members when I see other sides of their personality, though.

Or maybe it's just that the humanity and the niceties are stripped away and we're left only with opposing points of view that are very antagonistic.

doczinn

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2006, 12:49:02 PM »
Quote
Whole paragraphs are required to explain a single phrase in another language. 
I'd say it is more often the opposite. For anecdotal evidence, look at ingredients lists, or assembly instructions. English has far more words than most (all?) other languages, making it easier to express nuance. The difficulty in translation comes from choosing the most accurate English words to express the correct meaning from the mutitude of possible meanings in the other language.

[Dennis]Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.[/Dennis]
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Monkeyleg

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2006, 01:38:41 PM »
Perhaps I shouldn't be so concerned about whether I tick somebody off or not. But it's just my nature to try to get along with people, unless someone is just being a complete jerk.

I've had the pleasure of meeting people from TFL, THR, and APS in person. If I'd said something to offend them on one of the forums, I wouldn't have had that pleasure.

Besides, it seems like a real waste of emotional energy to argue with someone I've never seen and will likely never see. There are people out there more deserving of that energy (such as our governor).


gunsmith

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2006, 01:48:43 PM »
I'm not upset with you, but then again I am not one of those respected ones.
I thought you were though!
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Monkeyleg

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2006, 01:56:47 PM »
"I'm not upset with you, but then again I am not one of those respected ones."

Well, if you hang around long enough, you'll either be upset with me, or you'll be respectable. Wink

Standing Wolf

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2006, 04:08:15 PM »
I have a hunch lots of people on the internet neither read nor write very well.
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280plus

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Re: The online Dale Carnegie: How to Lose Friends and Alienate People
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2006, 05:58:03 PM »
That reminds me of the old girlfriend who was graduating San Diego State but couldn't spell to save her life. I still can't understand how that is possible.
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