Can Ethanol as a fuel be killed?

[Northwoods]

We aren't the only country that subsidizes oil.

No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock.  How, exactly, would you suggest we eliminate subsidies from other countries?  We can only eliminate our own "subsidies" even if there aren't any real subsidies.

[Nick1911]

Remove all subsidies and mandates and let the market figure it out. Also, build a bunch of nuke plants and start using them both for power generation and producing other fuels.

We have no energy problems. We have a lack of will.

Exactly this.  Engineers solved the energy crisis, it's up to the politicians to use it.

And Charby, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? 

[charby]

And Charby, what exactly is the point you are trying to make? 

People complain end the subsidy on something they don't like. Just about everything we need to function as a society is subsidized at some level, whether it is a tax credit, preferred loan/insurance rates or direct payments.

Most people are ignorant on why we have subsidies or why subsidies are even there.

[charby]

No *expletive deleted*it, Sherlock.  How, exactly, would you suggest we eliminate subsidies from other countries?  We can only eliminate our own "subsidies" even if there aren't any real subsidies.

Oil/energy is a global commodity, not just a domestic product.

Well you could just quit using any oil product and feel good that you are not part of any subsidy program.

[charby]

Exactly this.  Engineers solved the energy crisis, it's up to the politicians to use it.

Well when the market is figuring things out and fuel isn't delivered to your neighborhood filling station because it isn't profitable, don't go crying about it.

[charby]

Perhaps you can provide links to these.  As the only ones I find are Section 1703 and Section 1705 loans which are all about alternative and renewable energy.   I spent over an hour on the energy.gov website and failed to find a single thing for oil, oil drilling, and oil production (except for Deepwater Horizon).  Hell, even Mother Jones' rant about the oil industry only listed the tax incentives that the industry gets.

"Cheap Energy Leases on Federal lands"  Seems that the .gov sets the market price and the oil drillers pay it.   Just like the Bundy ranch, perhaps the Fed.gov needs to get out of the land business, since they seem to completely mis-manage it.  

But again.  Words have meanings.   A tax break is not a subsidy.  Allowing someone to keep more of their money is not a subsidy.   Those are the terms the leftists use to create confusion in those that aren't paying attention and generate anger towards those getting a "subsidy".  It's another way they create the "us vs them" that they need to gain and continue in power.

Government doesn't set the price, the leases are normally sold via bidding, very few players are able to actually have the money and technology to drill for oil/gas/etc so the price is lower because of this.

Tell me why a tax break is not a subsidy? Not all subsidies are direct payments.

[Nick1911]

People complain end the subsidy on something they don't like. Just about everything we need to function as a society is subsidized at some level, whether it is a tax credit, preferred loan/insurance rates or direct payments.

Most people are ignorant on why we have subsidies or why subsidies are even there.

Okay...

Why do we have subsidies?  Why are subsidies even there?  Would the free market not optimize itself and provide for the demands of consumers?

Well when the market is figuring things out and fuel isn't delivered to your neighborhood filling station because it isn't profitable, don't go crying about it.

I'm not suggesting this would be an overnight process.  Just that, there is an abundant energy source should we as a people choose to use it.  As such, any scarcity of energy as a commodity is artificial.

[Northwoods]

Oil/energy is a global commodity, not just a domestic product.

Well you could just quit using any oil product and feel good that you are not part of any subsidy program.

Huh?  This makes no sense as a response to what I wrote.

[Northwoods]

Government doesn't set the price, the leases are normally sold via bidding, very few players are able to actually have the money and technology to drill for oil/gas/etc so the price is lower because of this.

Tell me why a tax break is not a subsidy? Not all subsidies are direct payments.

Supply and demand.  It's not an artificially low price if all willing buyers are able to participate with willing sellers. 

Words have meanings.  Discrete meanings.  Tax breaks, especially when available to all corporations, are not subsidies.  If you can't understand that then we have a problem with fundamental understanding of the English language.

[Ron]

If government thinks it needs to choose to lower taxes on a targeted industry from what the taxes would be under the law normally then the tax law is bad.

It is not a subsidy just because other industries are still suffering under the bad tax rate.

It is bad tax law that is the problem.

[charby]

Okay...

Why do we have subsidies?  Why are subsidies even there?  Would the free market not optimize itself and provide for the demands of consumers?


I'm not suggesting this would be an overnight process.  Just that, there is an abundant energy source should we as a people choose to use it.  As such, any scarcity of energy as a commodity is artificial.

Subsidies are created so a specific industry will produce a product and continue to do so. It is also used to start an industry or research/development that may be beneficial in the future. The ethanol program was a result of the 1973 oil crisis and to produce a potential domestic energy.

[charby]

Perhaps you can provide links to these.  As the only ones I find are Section 1703 and Section 1705 loans which are all about alternative and renewable energy.   I spent over an hour on the energy.gov website and failed to find a single thing for oil, oil drilling, and oil production (except for Deepwater Horizon).  Hell, even Mother Jones' rant about the oil industry only listed the tax incentives that the industry gets.

"Cheap Energy Leases on Federal lands"  Seems that the .gov sets the market price and the oil drillers pay it.   Just like the Bundy ranch, perhaps the Fed.gov needs to get out of the land business, since they seem to completely mis-manage it.  

But again.  Words have meanings.   A tax break is not a subsidy.  Allowing someone to keep more of their money is not a subsidy.   Those are the terms the leftists use to create confusion in those that aren't paying attention and generate anger towards those getting a "subsidy".  It's another way they create the "us vs them" that they need to gain and continue in power.

here you go

http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy/

there is a nice little table that shows direct payments to different energy sectors.

[charby]

Supply and demand.  It's not an artificially low price if all willing buyers are able to participate with willing sellers.  

Words have meanings.  Discrete meanings.  Tax breaks, especially when available to all corporations, are not subsidies.  If you can't understand that then we have a problem with fundamental understanding of the English language.

From Investopedia

DEFINITION of 'Subsidy'

A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public.

from the business dictionary

1.Economic benefit (such as a tax allowance or duty rebate) or financial aid (such as a cash grant or soft loan) provided by a government to (1) support a desirable activity (such as exports), (2) keep prices of staples low, (3) maintain the income of the producers of critical or strategic products, (4) maintain employment levels, or (5) induce investment to reduce unemployment. The basic characteristic of all subsidies is to reduce the market price of an item below its cost of production. Also called subvention.

2.Indirect financial contribution by a firm to its employees, such as low cost meals or free transportation. Also called benefit.


Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/subsidy.html#ixzz3Nd7WbFML

[Scout26]

here you go

http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy/

there is a nice little table that shows direct payments to different energy sectors.

Non sequitur.

That's chart's for electricity generation, not drilling and production (and it still shows that there was only $4 million is direct aid to NG/PL generation out of $14,295,000,000 in Direct Expenditures.

To remind of your original statement:

Money for exploration (direct grants, low/no interest loans/preferred lending) and cheap energy leases on federal lands.

Nice try, but you are trying to conflate apples with watermelons.   (electricity generation vs exploration and drilling)

[Scout26]

Here's the full report:

http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy/pdf/subsidy.pdfw

To save you some time, you might want to concentrate on pages 18 and 63-79.  I see big fat goose eggs for direct expenditures and loans/loan guarantees for oil and Natural Gas. 

So again.  What subsidies are you referring to?  And again, I'll point out that tax "breaks" are not subsidies, just like your tax loophole is my qualified tax deduction.

Here's Merriam-Webster's definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subsidy

Dictionary.com:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subsidy

And Oxford:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/subsidy


Words have specific meanings.  If you use them improperly, you are attempting to conflate to separate things into one.  See "Assault Weapon" as an example.


 

[charby]

Here's the full report:

http://www.eia.gov/analysis/requests/subsidy/pdf/subsidy.pdfw

To save you some time, you might want to concentrate on pages 18 and 63-79.  I see big fat goose eggs for direct expenditures and loans/loan guarantees for oil and Natural Gas. 

So again.  What subsidies are you referring to?  And again, I'll point out that tax "breaks" are not subsidies, just like your tax loophole is my qualified tax deduction.

Here's Merriam-Webster's definition:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subsidy

Dictionary.com:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subsidy

And Oxford:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/subsidy


Words have specific meanings.  If you use them improperly, you are attempting to conflate to separate things into one.  See "Assault Weapon" as an example.


 

Then why is subsidy used differently then spelled out in Webster's in government and business?

Also read the Energy Policy Act of 2005, in the act there is incentives to companies to drill for oil in the Gulf of Mexico. Lots of tax incentives to energy companies, also.

[Scout26]

Then why is subsidy used differently then spelled out in Webster's in government and business?

Also read the Energy Policy Act of 2005, in the act there is incentives to companies to drill for oil in the Gulf of Mexico. Lots of tax incentives to energy companies, also.

A tax incentive is not a subsidy.

As an FYI, even Jonathon Gruber admitted that Corporations don't pay taxes, people do....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m54CqiMGe-k

[charby]

A tax incentive is not a subsidy.

As an FYI, even Jonathon Gruber admitted that Corporations don't pay taxes, people do....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m54CqiMGe-k

I said incentives not tax incentives for oil exploration in the Gulf of Mexico. I also mentioned that their were lots of tax incentives as a separate item.

[charby]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidy

scroll down to types of subsidies.

[Scout26]

Money for exploration (direct grants, low/no interest loans/preferred lending) and cheap energy leases on federal lands.

Again, your original assertion.  You have yet to provide any proof.

[charby]

Again, your original assertion.  You have yet to provide any proof.

posted earlier:
Also read the Energy Policy Act of 2005, in the act there is incentives to companies to drill for oil in the Gulf of Mexico.

[Scout26]

Hmmm, after reading it, the only incentives I see are payment-in-kind (oil or Nat Gas) for lease payments, and this for Alaska:

EXPLORATION INCENTIVES.—
‘‘(1) IN GENERAL.—
‘‘(A) WAIVER, SUSPENSION, OR REDUCTION.—To encourage the greatest ultimate recovery of oil or gas or in the interest of conservation, the Secretary may waive, suspend, or reduce the rental fees or minimum royalty, or reduce the royalty on an entire leasehold (including on any lease operated pursuant to a unit agreement), whenever (after consultation with the State of Alaska and the North Slope Borough of Alaska and the concurrence of any Regional Corporation for leases that include land that was made available for acquisition by the Regional Corporation under the provisions of section 1431(o) of the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act (16 U.S.C. 3101 et seq.)) in the judgment of the Secretary it is necessary to do so to promote development, or whenever in the judgment of the Secretary the leases cannot be successfully operated under the terms provided therein.

There was a maximum of $3million on grants for demonstration projects of injecting CO2 into well to see it if would increase their production and sequester CO2 underground.

It does the Secretary of Interior the ability to make allowances for reduced royalty payments for under-producing wells on public lands.   If that's what you mean by "Incentives".

But perhaps you could point to chapter and verse (It's under Title III- Oil and Gas), in the link above.

[Ron]

The oil industry would survive, no make that thrive without government mandates and tax/fiscal shenanigans.

The ethanol as fuel industry requires the government to mandate its use and underwrite the whole operation. It's a brilliant rent seeking scheme.

[roo_ster]

The oil industry would survive, no make that thrive without government mandates and tax/fiscal shenanigans.

The ethanol as fuel industry requires the government to mandate its use and underwrite the whole operation. It's a brilliant rent seeking scheme.

This is about says it all.  Fuel ethanol is a wasteful, uneconomic dead-end.  Petroleum is a useful industry that can survive the market.

[charby]

You may get your wish Mr Scout.

http://breakingenergy.com/2015/01/26/senate-amendment-to-repeal-rfs-corn-ethanol-mandate/