Author Topic: United Airlines initiates self-immolation  (Read 43587 times)

MechAg94

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #150 on: April 11, 2017, 04:31:40 PM »
The payout is in airline credit, not cash.


I rarely fly anywhere for work or vacation and I don't care if work gets a discounted plane ticket.  If it isn't cash, it means nothing to me.  I don't think I would try to wrestle with police though.  
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KD5NRH

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #151 on: April 11, 2017, 04:33:05 PM »
The payout is in airline credit, not cash.

Welcome to the company store.  Please leave your pick outside.

Still have trouble believing it wouldn't have been cheaper for them to move their crew some other way with zero backlash.  Rent a van for one day and give the janitor 10 hours of overtime to drive so the crew gets to rest; what would that take, $600, tops, including fuel and a meal for everybody at IHOP?

Ben

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #152 on: April 11, 2017, 04:37:19 PM »
If the airline discloses the percentage of overbooking at the time you are looking to buy the Ticket, and the explicit caveat that your odds of being bumped to boarding that flight are X:Y, then that would be more honest and you would be an informed gambler  =D, not a sucker.

Well and also, I have no idea what their overbooking numbers are. If they have a flight that statistically averages five no shows, then overbooking by 3-4 is reasonable to me. Overbooking by 6-7 would not be. This is all from my armchair of course. I'm sure there are lots of calculations I don't understand regarding costs of an empty seat vs costs of "bumping bribes" all multiplied by thousands of flights per day.
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KD5NRH

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #153 on: April 11, 2017, 04:50:00 PM »
Point of order: the flight was operated by a United Express code-share partner, not actually United Airlines.

I think more and more of us are developing zero tolerance for the "it wasn't us, it was our contractor/partner/whatever that we somehow can't have any control over at all despite the very detailed contractual relationship" excuse.  You employ (as in pay them to do something, regardless of the details) them to serve your customers under your name, you're responsible for making sure they do it.

Quote
In the videos, the plane appears to be a regional jet, such as a CRJ or Embraer, seating about 50 people, not hundreds.

E170, so 70-80 depending on layout, but there's more than enough room for a spare flight crew to lay down in the baggage compartment*.

* http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/03/aviation/trapped-baggage-handler/

Brad Johnson

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #154 on: April 11, 2017, 05:13:49 PM »
I guess a flood of social media outrage, a barrage of negative major media coverage, and more than a billion in stock value loss finally got the point across that half-axed apologies ain't gonna cut it.

https://hub.united.com/united-express-3411-statement-oscar-munoz-2355968629.html?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral

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Fly320s

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #155 on: April 11, 2017, 05:17:34 PM »
Welcome to the company store.  Please leave your pick outside.

Still have trouble believing it wouldn't have been cheaper for them to move their crew some other way with zero backlash.  Rent a van for one day and give the janitor 10 hours of overtime to drive so the crew gets to rest; what would that take, $600, tops, including fuel and a meal for everybody at IHOP?

Maybe cheaper, but that would require advanced planning.  This sounds like a last minute problem.

Driving that far is out od the question.  DOT rest rules don't allow that time to be counted as rest. I don't know the pay rules of that airline, but at my job the entire crew would have to be paid their hourly wage for the whole drive. That would be about $450/hr and the we would be illegal to work the next day.
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mtnbkr

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #156 on: April 11, 2017, 05:22:01 PM »
Maybe cheaper, but that would require advanced planning.  This sounds like a last minute problem.

Driving that far is out od the question.  DOT rest rules don't allow that time to be counted as rest. I don't know the pay rules of that airline, but at my job the entire crew would have to be paid their hourly wage for the whole drive. That would be about $450/hr and the we would be illegal to work the next day.

Don't feed the troll.

Chris

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #157 on: April 11, 2017, 05:30:42 PM »
Driving that far is out od the question.  DOT rest rules don't allow that time to be counted as rest. I don't know the pay rules of that airline, but at my job the entire crew would have to be paid their hourly wage for the whole drive. That would be about $450/hr and the we would be illegal to work the next day.

Call it a very low altitude flight.  Pick the right driver and that might sort of be true.

Hawkmoon

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #158 on: April 11, 2017, 06:04:59 PM »
Pretty much.  Just to clarify: the SOPs for bumping/compensating pax are already in place.  I don't know much about the details, but I doubt that the front-line gate agents are allowed to determine the amount of offered compensation.  The agents follow the script as written by the corporate office.  And this works 99% of the time.  We've all seen/heard the stories of passengers throwing fits because they were bumped from flights.  Those are rare events.  Having to physically remove a passenger is even more rare.  This news story is a news story only because there is video of a man with a bloody lip.  If it bleeds, it leads.

As to the crew movement issue:  The deadheading crew (I assume they were deadheading and not flying standby on their own time) needed to be in Louisville (or whatever the destination was.  I've seen three cities mentioned.) to operate a flight the next day.  Bumping 1-4 passengers today is normally better/easier/cheaper than cancelling a flight tomorrow for 50 people.

At least two articles I've read reported that one of the congenial United personnel (don't know if it was a gate agent or a flight attendant) announced that if nobody "volunteered," the flight wouldn't take off. I rather suspect that if they had simply followed through with that strategy, someone would have felt pressured enough to accept the $800 bribe and get off the plane.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #159 on: April 11, 2017, 06:22:37 PM »
Yet there were probably at least a dozen people on the flight that make $800 or less a week that didn't want to make $800 for ~12 hours of their time. The incident aside, I'm still a little perplexed that they didn't get more people to volunteer. If the next flight doesn't leave till the next day, that should mean hotel and per diem would be included as well.


But people on the low end of the income scale generally aren't frequent fliers. To someone who gets on a plane maybe once every five or ten years, a voucher good for $800 off your next flight (on United) is pretty useless if you don't plan to fly anywhere. If the $800 was a cash offer, that might be a different story.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #160 on: April 11, 2017, 06:26:00 PM »
Well...

This just got WAY more interesting...

http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/

It wouldn't be admissible in any trial. His status, sexual orientation, and psychological history weren't known to any of the players, and weren't especially relevant to the incident. (Except possibly his anger management problem.)
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Ben

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #161 on: April 11, 2017, 06:33:44 PM »
But people on the low end of the income scale generally aren't frequent fliers. To someone who gets on a plane maybe once every five or ten years, a voucher good for $800 off your next flight (on United) is pretty useless if you don't plan to fly anywhere. If the $800 was a cash offer, that might be a different story.

Noted. When this started I thought there were cash incentives. I see where fly320s said otherwise. Cash offers were something I'd never seen when I flew a lot, and for that matter, I don't recall dollar value vouchers being offered either back when I was on overbooked flights. It was always frequent flyer miles on the low end, and then just tickets "good for anywhere within X for Y time" (usually a year).

Though if you are low income, an $800 voucher can make for a nice long weekend somewhere that you might otherwise not be able to afford. Instead of going to the local lake for the weekend, fly somewhere new and exciting.

I do recall one time United got me to LAX way late and made me miss my connection, and to make up for it, the gate agent said he would "bump me to first class for the next available flight". The next available flight was a Brasilia.  :facepalm:
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Andiron

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #162 on: April 11, 2017, 07:18:18 PM »
Don't feed the troll.

Chris



Do please elaborate.
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freakazoid

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #163 on: April 11, 2017, 07:42:23 PM »
well I know the stock can bounce back but it has cost them over 600 million so far.

If they keep making it worse heads are going to roll even if it was legal.

Just looked it up. Interestingly, in general their stock has been improving.
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Scout26

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #164 on: April 11, 2017, 08:02:35 PM »
Legal or not, intentionally sellng more than you can provide in any service is a dishonest practice... so we are off to a bad start already.

Being that travel is not only about cash but also the consumer's time, people are right to demand the service on the date and time advertised by the seller. Clearly, compensation offered in this case was not enough (according to the market- the passengers on board) and needs to be reviewed if it failed ot create sufficient incentive, not forced by goons. If UA "bumping" procedure leads to physical confrontation in the cabin of their planes, then that procedure is ass backwards. Backing up a dishonest -yet legal- business practice with force is just slimy.



So then are you okay with No Refunds on tickets, no matter the reason ??  Because once that airplane takes off with an empty seat, you can never get that revenue.   And those 4-5 seats (or less) might be the profit margin (or less) then that flight.

Quote
Still have trouble believing it wouldn't have been cheaper for them to move their crew some other way with zero backlash.  Rent a van for one day and give the janitor 10 hours of overtime to drive so the crew gets to rest; what would that take, $600, tops, including fuel and a meal for everybody at IHOP?

And once again you opine on matters you know little about.

So No, probably not.  For all the reasons that Flys320s outlined, plus what if the plane they are due to fly is sitting in Louisville waiting for that crew?  They made the decision that it was a better customer service choice to disrupt 4 passengers at ORD then 40-50 or more in Louisville.   
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Angel Eyes

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #165 on: April 11, 2017, 08:05:23 PM »
. . . and Duffelblog weighs in:

Quote
Pentagon awards contract to United Airlines to forcibly remove Assad

http://www.duffelblog.com/2017/04/pentagon-awards-contract-united-airlines-forcibly-remove-assad/#ixzz4dzMwOo8K

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Monkeyleg

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #166 on: April 11, 2017, 09:05:45 PM »

"You do what we say, when we say, and there won't be a problem.  Capiche?"



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Angel Eyes

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #167 on: April 11, 2017, 09:07:46 PM »
Capisce. (Italian spelling Nazi ;)  )

It's Jimmy Kimmel's bit.  So blame him.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #168 on: April 11, 2017, 10:40:56 PM »
Legal or not, intentionally sellng more than you can provide in any service is a dishonest practice... so we are off to a bad start already.

Being that travel is not only about cash but also the consumer's time, people are right to demand the service on the date and time advertised by the seller. Clearly, compensation offered in this case was not enough (according to the market- the passengers on board) and needs to be reviewed if it failed ot create sufficient incentive, not forced by goons. If UA "bumping" procedure leads to physical confrontation in the cabin of their planes, then that procedure is ass backwards. Backing up a dishonest -yet legal- business practice with force is just slimy.



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Scout26

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Bring me my Broadsword and a clear understanding.
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Bless with a hard heart those that stand with me.
Bless the women and children who firm our hands.
Put our backs to the north wind.
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Sweet memories to drive us on,
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bedlamite

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #170 on: April 11, 2017, 11:28:44 PM »
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

RoadKingLarry

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #171 on: April 11, 2017, 11:49:01 PM »
[Rosa Parks]Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right [/Rosa Parks]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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Hawkmoon

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #172 on: April 12, 2017, 12:36:57 AM »
Be careful what you write -- somebody might remember.

http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/united-airlines-promised-federal-regulators-all-ticketed-passengers-are-guaranteed

Quote
In September 2014 comments to federal officials, the Chicago-based airline outlined its opposition to proposed rules that sought more disclosure of the fees airlines charge to customers. One of the rules at issue was designed to compel airlines to more explicitly disclose fees charged for reserving specific seats.

“Including advance-seat-assignment charges among the ‘basic ancillary service’ fees that must be disclosed as part of initial fare displays makes no sense,” the airline wrote to the Department of Transportation. “Every ticket, of course, guarantees a passenger a seat on the plane, with no additional mandatory seat-assignment charges."

Later in the filing, United Airlines expanded on its promise to regulators that it guarantees every ticketed passenger a seat.

“Importantly, every passenger who buys a ticket on a United flight or a flight on any of United’s partners or competitors in the United States will be assigned a seat at no additional charge (though in some cases this will still happen at the gate),” the airline wrote. “Therefore, the rule does not need to prescribe how carriers must disclose charges concerning advance seat assignments because passengers need not purchase this service to receive a seat assignment.”

I think the article is taking those statements out of context, but it still doesn't help United's image problems.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2017, 12:50:04 AM by Hawkmoon »
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freakazoid

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #173 on: April 12, 2017, 04:09:57 AM »
Quote
And those 4-5 seats (or less) might be the profit margin (or less) then that flight.

Don't actually know, but I'm going to guess that it takes a LOT more than 4-5 seats. Perhaps Fly320 can give real numbers?

So No, probably not.  For all the reasons that Flys320s outlined, plus what if the plane they are due to fly is sitting in Louisville waiting for that crew?  They made the decision that it was a better customer service choice to disrupt 4 passengers at ORD then 40-50 or more in Louisville.   

A lack of planning on your part does not make an emergency on my part.
Proper planning prevents piss poor performance.
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K Frame

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Re: United Airlines initiates self-immolation
« Reply #174 on: April 12, 2017, 06:46:07 AM »
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article143948159.html

This story states that over 40K fliers were bumped last year.

Bull crap!

They were reaccommodated. :rofl:
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