Author Topic: Union of North America?  (Read 17096 times)

Tuco

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2007, 09:02:09 AM »
And that's different from name calling and accusations in what way?

I'm new here...

Does anyone take this guy

The Rabbi

seriously?


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auschip

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2007, 10:04:27 AM »
And that's different from name calling and accusations in what way?

I'm new here...

Does anyone take this guy

The Rabbi

seriously?


Wait, you change his quote to make him say something completely opposite of what he believes, then get mad when he calls you on it?   rolleyes

AntiqueCollector

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2007, 10:43:32 AM »
Quote
What they have shown is that there is a proposal (and has been for some time) to create an economic interest zone based on shared markets among the 3 countries.  That does not involve dissolving the union or abrogating the Constitution.
Being a traditional free-trading Republican I heartily support a proposal like that.  Anyone who understands economics should.

You have even admitted yourself that they want some sort of union. But what CFR and the Trilateral Commission and others want is far more than just an economic thing. That is how they'll sell it to people though, a political union is harder to sell so they'll do it slowly as they did in Europe. And as I gave examples of, there are several unions or proposed unions being created worldwide. Connect the dots...

Your suggestion that those opposed to free trade don't understand economics is false too. While free trade may make a small minority very wealthy, the majority and this country are harmed by it. I take an approach more like Hamilton, supporting actions to protect our own economy and our own manufacturers and such (tariffs that is). My own country first rather than helping foreigners at our own expense.

AntiqueCollector

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2007, 10:46:15 AM »
And that's different from name calling and accusations in what way?

I'm new here...

Does anyone take this guy

The Rabbi

seriously?


Wait, you change his quote to make him say something completely opposite of what he believes, then get mad when he calls you on it?   rolleyes

It looks to me like they messed up in their cutting of the rest of the post out of the quote and intended to focus on his admission that he supports the ideas of the CFR/etc. Though of course I may be wrong on that...

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2007, 11:17:44 AM »
Quote
What they have shown is that there is a proposal (and has been for some time) to create an economic interest zone based on shared markets among the 3 countries.  That does not involve dissolving the union or abrogating the Constitution.
Being a traditional free-trading Republican I heartily support a proposal like that.  Anyone who understands economics should.

You have even admitted yourself that they want some sort of union. But what CFR and the Trilateral Commission and others want is far more than just an economic thing. That is how they'll sell it to people though, a political union is harder to sell so they'll do it slowly as they did in Europe. And as I gave examples of, there are several unions or proposed unions being created worldwide. Connect the dots...

Your suggestion that those opposed to free trade don't understand economics is false too. While free trade may make a small minority very wealthy, the majority and this country are harmed by it. I take an approach more like Hamilton, supporting actions to protect our own economy and our own manufacturers and such (tariffs that is). My own country first rather than helping foreigners at our own expense.
Ah yes, connect the dots.  The last refuge of people unable to muster facts.
As for free trade, I'd strongly suggest looking at Thomas Sowell's Economics for the citizen book.  You might learn a thing or two.
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Len Budney

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2007, 11:20:18 AM »
Being a traditional free-trading Republican I heartily support a proposal like that.  Anyone who understands economics should.

I'm all for free trade; my objection to North American union is that it isn't nearly free enough. It's highly regulated, strictly supervised "free trade." It might be that half a loaf is better than none, but Ij can't decide if it's really half a loaf or not, because along with the not-really-free trade comes another regulatory structure, with all its attendant gears and levers for politicians to monkey with.

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AntiqueCollector

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2007, 11:39:22 AM »
Quote
What they have shown is that there is a proposal (and has been for some time) to create an economic interest zone based on shared markets among the 3 countries.  That does not involve dissolving the union or abrogating the Constitution.
Being a traditional free-trading Republican I heartily support a proposal like that.  Anyone who understands economics should.

You have even admitted yourself that they want some sort of union. But what CFR and the Trilateral Commission and others want is far more than just an economic thing. That is how they'll sell it to people though, a political union is harder to sell so they'll do it slowly as they did in Europe. And as I gave examples of, there are several unions or proposed unions being created worldwide. Connect the dots...

Your suggestion that those opposed to free trade don't understand economics is false too. While free trade may make a small minority very wealthy, the majority and this country are harmed by it. I take an approach more like Hamilton, supporting actions to protect our own economy and our own manufacturers and such (tariffs that is). My own country first rather than helping foreigners at our own expense.
Ah yes, connect the dots.  The last refuge of people unable to muster facts.
As for free trade, I'd strongly suggest looking at Thomas Sowell's Economics for the citizen book.  You might learn a thing or two.

I've already posted several facts. You see no connection between them?

As for free trade, I've learned enough from history (including recent and not so recent history) to base my opinions on. I imagine you are getting some sort of benefit from free trade for you to have such strong support for it?

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2007, 11:41:03 AM »
No.  There is no connection except the one you are trying to make to justify a paranoid view.  There is no grand conspiracy.  Elvis is dead.

And you haven't learned anything about trade from history if you still think its a bad thing.
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AntiqueCollector

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2007, 11:46:34 AM »
No.  There is no connection except the one you are trying to make to justify a paranoid view.  There is no grand conspiracy.  Elvis is dead.

And you haven't learned anything about trade from history if you still think its a bad thing.
Free trade is good and useful but only to a point. Allowing our manufacturing jobs to be exported to foreign countries on a large scale is not beneficial to this country overall in the long run, for example. We're going to be pretty well screwed if we ever go to war with China, for example. We became an industrial giant while placing tariffs on imports and keeping our industry here. Of course, we also had less socialist interference in internal matters to make manufacturing here more expensive but that's another problem...

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2007, 11:54:56 AM »
You need to go read Sowell.  Don't comment on free trade until you have.
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AntiqueCollector

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #60 on: September 17, 2007, 12:19:11 PM »
You need to go read Sowell.  Don't comment on free trade until you have.

Perhaps you should open your eyes to the results of free trade and outsourcing in America.

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #61 on: September 17, 2007, 12:33:41 PM »
You need to go read Sowell.  Don't comment on free trade until you have.

Perhaps you should open your eyes to the results of free trade and outsourcing in America.

Yeah.  The result is that the U.S. is a net importer of jobs from overseas.
Like I said, go read Sowell before commenting again.
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AntiqueCollector

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2007, 12:36:40 PM »
You need to go read Sowell.  Don't comment on free trade until you have.

Perhaps you should open your eyes to the results of free trade and outsourcing in America.

Yeah.  The result is that the U.S. is a net importer of jobs from overseas.
Like I said, go read Sowell before commenting again.
Last I heard, we're in the negatives as far as jobs created...

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2007, 12:38:48 PM »
You need to go read Sowell.  Don't comment on free trade until you have.

Perhaps you should open your eyes to the results of free trade and outsourcing in America.

Yeah.  The result is that the U.S. is a net importer of jobs from overseas.
Like I said, go read Sowell before commenting again.
Last I heard, we're in the negatives as far as jobs created...

You heard wrong.
What you heard was the total job creation report from last month, showing a net loss of jobs.  That has nothing to do with this particular point.  The U.S. has benefited from outsourcing from other countries far more than it has been hurt by it.
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AntiqueCollector

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2007, 12:42:23 PM »
You need to go read Sowell.  Don't comment on free trade until you have.

Perhaps you should open your eyes to the results of free trade and outsourcing in America.

Yeah.  The result is that the U.S. is a net importer of jobs from overseas.
Like I said, go read Sowell before commenting again.
Last I heard, we're in the negatives as far as jobs created...

You heard wrong.
What you heard was the total job creation report from last month, showing a net loss of jobs.  That has nothing to do with this particular point.  The U.S. has benefited from outsourcing from other countries far more than it has been hurt by it.

You see nothing wrong with a net loss of jobs? You should see communities where most are unemployed because of outsourcing, and there's not sense in any of them moving when there aren't enough jobs elsewhere for them. And we're not even getting into the whole issue of depending on foreign countries for our production of goods when these countries may turn on us or the trade may be interrupted relatively easily by a determined enemy.

And I would like to see what you believe backs up the statement that the U.S. has benefitted from outsourcing...

longeyes

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #65 on: September 17, 2007, 01:06:25 PM »
China gets a huge market for her exports (while keeping her own tariffs in place and a deflated currency).  Mexico gets an outlet for its unwanted population.  The narcotrafficantes wrap their tentacles around more and more of America.

And we get?  More toys for our addicted consumers to buy with credit cards.  Lots more welfare costs.  And the subversion of our cultural legacy and values.

Now that's what I call a great trade.
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Tuco

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #66 on: September 17, 2007, 04:21:37 PM »
You need to go read Sowell.  Don't comment on free trade until you have.

You mean Thomas Sowell?  PhD University of Chicago?

Quote
Greed for power is more dangerous than greed for money and has shed far more blood in the process. Political authorities have often had revolutionary values that were devastating to the general population.

Yup, I've read him, as well as Leo Strauss, the ideological mentor of the Chicago Kids.

Have you read the Statement of Principles of the Project for a New American Century?
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

    " we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
    responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

    " we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

    " we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

    " we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.


Have you read last weeks assignment? 
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=8102

Quote
North America is vulnerable on several fronts: the region faces terrorist and criminal security threats, increased economic competition from abroad, and uneven economic development at home. In response to these challenges, a tri-national, Independent Task Force on the Future of North America has developed a road map to promote North American security and advance the well-being of citizens of all three countries.

Perhaps you should, for a view of the policy being crafted from the philosophy you espouse.
At least three of the P for the NAC founders are current members of the CFR, and thats only high profilers, ie Dick Cheney, Fred Ikle and Paul Wolfowitz.  Im not trying for the seven degrees of Leo Strauss but a legitimate unified front of the western world will make the goals of the neoconservative philosophy easier to realize.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n121/ai_17489596

Irving Kristol (of the CFR) self proclaimed godfather of neoconservatism  writes
Quote
People have always preferred strong government to weak government, although they certainly have no liking for anything that smacks of overly intrusive government.

Who stands to gain from all this?  That is the 64 thousand dollar question.  Who stands to gain?

Yes, you can call me a tin foil hatter and conspiracy nut all you want, I laugh at your reluctance to educate yourself with the roots of current political philosophy and policy therein rooted.  Who stands to gain?  Rabbi answered 75% correctly in reply post 48 #
(Big Corporations?  Polticians?  George Bush?  The dreaded Neo Cons?)
All the same, except GW, hes nothing.  Again, look at the list of members of the CFR, The P for a NAC, and the Tri Lateral commission.

The constitution is written to uphold the rights of the people.  There has been no overt assault on that goddamned piece of paper, rather, we see a gradual erosion and chipping away. 

Why these erosions? 
To protect us from terrorists?  To ensure domestic tranquility? To foster continued economic growth? 
Who stands to gain? 

Not a conspiracy theory, this North American Union, but perhaps a hypothesis.  What I find disturbing is the number of fawning sycophants willing to ignorantly call names, espouse contradictory points of view and deny the validity of even trying it under scientific method.

Who stands to gain?  Look at their philosophy and their methods. 
Is it feasible? Is it possible? 

The fox will find the hen house.  If we build a bigger, stronger hen house in a private location, do we sit back assuming the fox will never find it, or is even looking for it?  There is no feeling quite like waking in the morning and finding the place ransacked by a thief in the night.  Whose tracks are those? 

Some call it paranoia,
Realists call it situational awareness.

Soakers

ps.  my earlier quote attempt was a cheap shot.  I'll try to control myself.




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Len Budney

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #67 on: September 17, 2007, 05:04:50 PM »
You see nothing wrong with a net loss of jobs? You should see communities where most are unemployed because of outsourcing...

It's true that temporary dislocations can occur, just as they would when a town's biggest employer closes down--whether that's a steel mill or a stagecoach factory. That's a human problem that does need to be taken into account.

However, in the long run there's no such thing as a "loss of jobs," because the amount of work to be done in the universe is infinite. In the 18th century, something like 80% of the people worked on farms. Today less than 5% work on farms--yet the other 75% aren't just sitting there idle wishing they could find a job milking cows. Instead the economy has grown to include jobs unimaginable to 18th-century farmers. In the same way, "outsourcing" can't eliminate work, because humans always want more. Because they want more, someone will provide it for a price. And so on.

Trying to "protect" jobs is, in the long run, the same as if the congress of 1900 had "protected" the buggy-whip industry, or if the congress of 1800 had "protected" hand-picked cotton from the "unfair" competition of the cotton gin. It's an act of force to make people pay for what they don't want--and its foolishness becomes increasingly apparent over time. If the early Americans had thought like people today, there'd still be a government-subsidized buggy-whip industry, and US cotton plantations would still pick the stuff by hand. And there'd be massive tariffs on cotton to "protect" America from ginned cotton at $0.60/lb, forcing us to "buy America" at $25/lb.

As for outsourcing, I work in the IT industry where there was a genuine possibility that outsourcing would eventually leave me, personally, jobless. Lots of IT guys ran around in a blind panic, imagining that all programming would soon be done in Bangledesh for $3/hr. They're ignorant of economics. The demand for outsourcing drives prices upward. Already, outsourcing is slowing or stopping growth, because Indians in call centers are making more money, which reduces their edge over American staff. Meanwhile, as Rabbi mentioned, the Americans aren't sitting around jobless because they've lost their (crappy!) call-center jobs. They have other jobs.

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Matthew Carberry

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #68 on: September 17, 2007, 05:37:02 PM »
As for position documents existing for speculative unions. 

I would remind those that regard the existence of a document as proof of intent to follow through, to read up on military war planning exercises.  Here's a little info from the past.  They do the same sort of thing today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Color-coded_War_Plans
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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #69 on: September 18, 2007, 12:15:20 AM »
You need to go read Sowell.  Don't comment on free trade until you have.

You mean Thomas Sowell?  PhD University of Chicago?

Quote
Greed for power is more dangerous than greed for money and has shed far more blood in the process. Political authorities have often had revolutionary values that were devastating to the general population.

Yup, I've read him, as well as Leo Strauss, the ideological mentor of the Chicago Kids.

Have you read the Statement of Principles of the Project for a New American Century?
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

    " we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
    responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;

    " we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;

    " we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;

    " we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.


Have you read last weeks assignment? 
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=8102

Quote
North America is vulnerable on several fronts: the region faces terrorist and criminal security threats, increased economic competition from abroad, and uneven economic development at home. In response to these challenges, a tri-national, Independent Task Force on the Future of North America has developed a road map to promote North American security and advance the well-being of citizens of all three countries.

Perhaps you should, for a view of the policy being crafted from the philosophy you espouse.
At least three of the P for the NAC founders are current members of the CFR, and thats only high profilers, ie Dick Cheney, Fred Ikle and Paul Wolfowitz.  Im not trying for the seven degrees of Leo Strauss but a legitimate unified front of the western world will make the goals of the neoconservative philosophy easier to realize.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n121/ai_17489596

Irving Kristol (of the CFR) self proclaimed godfather of neoconservatism  writes
Quote
People have always preferred strong government to weak government, although they certainly have no liking for anything that smacks of overly intrusive government.

Who stands to gain from all this?  That is the 64 thousand dollar question.  Who stands to gain?

Yes, you can call me a tin foil hatter and conspiracy nut all you want, I laugh at your reluctance to educate yourself with the roots of current political philosophy and policy therein rooted.  Who stands to gain?  Rabbi answered 75% correctly in reply post 48 #
(Big Corporations?  Polticians?  George Bush?  The dreaded Neo Cons?)
All the same, except GW, hes nothing.  Again, look at the list of members of the CFR, The P for a NAC, and the Tri Lateral commission.

The constitution is written to uphold the rights of the people.  There has been no overt assault on that goddamned piece of paper, rather, we see a gradual erosion and chipping away. 

Why these erosions? 
To protect us from terrorists?  To ensure domestic tranquility? To foster continued economic growth? 
Who stands to gain? 

Not a conspiracy theory, this North American Union, but perhaps a hypothesis.  What I find disturbing is the number of fawning sycophants willing to ignorantly call names, espouse contradictory points of view and deny the validity of even trying it under scientific method.

Who stands to gain?  Look at their philosophy and their methods. 
Is it feasible? Is it possible? 

The fox will find the hen house.  If we build a bigger, stronger hen house in a private location, do we sit back assuming the fox will never find it, or is even looking for it?  There is no feeling quite like waking in the morning and finding the place ransacked by a thief in the night.  Whose tracks are those? 

Some call it paranoia,
Realists call it situational awareness.

Soakers

ps.  my earlier quote attempt was a cheap shot.  I'll try to control myself.


Wow, you can Google an author's name and correctly list his degree.  I'm impressed.
This is typical tin foil speak.
You havent read Sowell.  If you did you would understand what free trade means.
Trying to "connect the dots" (there's that term again!) to show a conspiracy by students of Leo Strauss doesn't pass the laugh test.
Your entire post is a rambling bunch of disjointed half-thoughts, spewing names and random quotations, a veritable word salad of paranoid fantasy.
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jeepmor

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #70 on: September 18, 2007, 01:42:03 AM »
Where is your evidence to the contrary Rabbi?

Pony up Rabbi, disprove everything without namecalling and I'll have the inclination to respect your position.  Simply slandering opposing views and not providing your own is not gaining you  credibility. 

"go read Sowell" is not nearly enough.
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Michigander

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #71 on: September 18, 2007, 02:02:25 AM »
It seems that the only concrete steps that have been taken thus far for the "one-world-government," of which the tinfoil brigade have been warning us about for years now, has been the creation of the UN and the creation of the EU.

It would appear to me that if this one-world-government was going to happen, it ain't happening any time too soon.  I mean the UN has been around for a number of decades now and it is hardly a force to be reckoned with. The EU was a long time in coming. I don't see how the "one-worlders" are supposed to get China, India, Japan, Indonesia, Russia, Turkey, Brazil, Chile, Venezuela, Sudan, Chad, the USA, Philippines, New Zealand, etc., etc., etc., to comply with this one government program.

Many people have written novels about a future in which there would be a one-world-government. Were they in on the plan too? Just because an individual or organization would like something to happen, or even plans to try to bring it about, doesn't mean it is going to happen and doesn't mean it is some vast conspiracy. If the EAU were such a conspiracy, how is it that we can read so much about it?
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AntiqueCollector

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #72 on: September 18, 2007, 02:23:33 AM »
You see nothing wrong with a net loss of jobs? You should see communities where most are unemployed because of outsourcing...

It's true that temporary dislocations can occur, just as they would when a town's biggest employer closes down--whether that's a steel mill or a stagecoach factory. That's a human problem that does need to be taken into account.

However, in the long run there's no such thing as a "loss of jobs," because the amount of work to be done in the universe is infinite. In the 18th century, something like 80% of the people worked on farms. Today less than 5% work on farms--yet the other 75% aren't just sitting there idle wishing they could find a job milking cows. Instead the economy has grown to include jobs unimaginable to 18th-century farmers. In the same way, "outsourcing" can't eliminate work, because humans always want more. Because they want more, someone will provide it for a price. And so on.

Trying to "protect" jobs is, in the long run, the same as if the congress of 1900 had "protected" the buggy-whip industry, or if the congress of 1800 had "protected" hand-picked cotton from the "unfair" competition of the cotton gin. It's an act of force to make people pay for what they don't want--and its foolishness becomes increasingly apparent over time. If the early Americans had thought like people today, there'd still be a government-subsidized buggy-whip industry, and US cotton plantations would still pick the stuff by hand. And there'd be massive tariffs on cotton to "protect" America from ginned cotton at $0.60/lb, forcing us to "buy America" at $25/lb.

As for outsourcing, I work in the IT industry where there was a genuine possibility that outsourcing would eventually leave me, personally, jobless. Lots of IT guys ran around in a blind panic, imagining that all programming would soon be done in Bangledesh for $3/hr. They're ignorant of economics. The demand for outsourcing drives prices upward. Already, outsourcing is slowing or stopping growth, because Indians in call centers are making more money, which reduces their edge over American staff. Meanwhile, as Rabbi mentioned, the Americans aren't sitting around jobless because they've lost their (crappy!) call-center jobs. They have other jobs.

--Len.


Incorrect. There is a loss of a jobs and the statistics prove it. We're not just talking temporary dislocations anymore, because outsourcing is getting to the point where there are losses everywhere or will be. Perhaps some people will enjoy a "manufacturing job" flipping burgers but that sort of economy is not going to work too long. There may be jobs being created, but if they're in other countries they're useless to Americans. And your comparisons on the issue of protective tariffs are incorrect. Protective tariffs were designed to protect all American industries. They may not have protected the buggy whip makers against the automobile industry, but they protected both the whip makers and car makers from foreign companies making the same products to a degree.

And I still haven't seen any of the free traders address the issues inherent in depending on other countries for our goods...

Len Budney

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2007, 02:49:23 AM »
Incorrect. There is a loss of a jobs and the statistics prove it. We're not just talking temporary dislocations anymore, because outsourcing is getting to the point where there are losses everywhere or will be.

That's where economics sheds light on the problem. It is absolutely, completely impossible for there to be a permanent "loss of jobs." The loss of jobs in buggy whip factories is probably permanent, but because human want is infinite, there is always something else to be done.

Quote
Perhaps some people will enjoy a "manufacturing job" flipping burgers but that sort of economy is not going to work too long.

If you could prove that everyone who ever worked in a call center is now flipping burgers, you'd have posted a link to the proof. Some people do end up in lower-paying jobs, it's true: the guy who only knows how to make buggy whips, and who works as a well-paid buggy-whip-factory foreman, will have a tough time getting a comparable job; he's too old to go back to school, and his only skill is no longer in demand. However, others will get better jobs. The burden is on you to prove that everyone dislocated by a market shift is made permanently (i.e., for the rest of his life) worse off.

Quote
There may be jobs being created, but if they're in other countries they're useless to Americans.

Burden of proof. It's on you. Post the evidence. (As Rabbi has pointed out, your claim is not true anway.)

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And your comparisons on the issue of protective tariffs are incorrect. Protective tariffs were designed to protect all American industries.

Um, no. A tariff on cotton protects the cotton industry, at the expense of the textile industry. A tariff on steel protects the steel industry, at the expense of construction, auto-making, etc. A tariff on sugar protects the corn-syrup producers at the expense of the makers of soft drinks. And so on. It's just plain silly to suggest that a tariff "protects all American industries." It indirectly robs some Americans for the benefit of other Americans.

Regulations limiting outsourcing, or quotas limiting imported goods, or other such measures, are exactly like tariffs in every way.

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And I still haven't seen any of the free traders address the issues inherent in depending on other countries for our goods...

That's the only argument you've raised that, at least on the surface, carries some weight. The first response to this argument, however, is that trade itself discourages war. Would you open a store, reap tremendous profit, and then, when you judged the time was right, start shooting your best customers? As Bastiat put it, "If goods do not cross borders, then armies will."

--Len.
In a cannibal society, vegetarians arouse suspicion.

The Rabbi

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Re: Union of North America?
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2007, 02:57:37 AM »
Where is your evidence to the contrary Rabbi?

Pony up Rabbi, disprove everything without namecalling and I'll have the inclination to respect your position.  Simply slandering opposing views and not providing your own is not gaining you  credibility. 

"go read Sowell" is not nearly enough.

Eviednce of what?  That there is no grand conspiracy?  I dont need to post evidence.  The people making this absurd claim need to post something other than the design on the back of NC drivers licenses if they want any credibility.  I can just sit here and point out that "connect the dots" is not a logical argument.

As said, the U.S. is a net importer of jobs from abroad.  Outsourcing works both ways.  If we have had massive job losses, why is the unemployment rate well under 5%?  And that includes illegals supposedly taking jobs from fine Americans.

As for loss of manufacturing capacity, we still manufacture plenty.  What we dont do is cheap mass manufacturing, in part because workers here wont do that for 25 cents an hour, having far better opportunities.
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