Author Topic: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA  (Read 23489 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2009, 02:09:24 AM »
Yea, I know, Hawkmoon.  Lots of folks are stupid enough to believe that BS.

I can get the fact that he's likely nuts.  But you can't say a person is nuts, so they shouldn't face any consequences for their actions.  If a person commits a violent crime, they should go to jail or the nut house if applicable.  After they're mentally fixed (if possible), then they can serve their sentence.  Actions have consequences.

The guy committed a minimum of 13 felonies before shooting four cops.  Folks with THAT many violent crimes on their record need to be kept away from humans.  They are dangerous and cannot be trusted.

I have never quite understood the concept of "criminally insane" -- especially when the "nut" is sane enough to carefully shoot FOUR uniformed police officers in the head (the reports indicate that all four were wearing vests -- the average, run-of-the-mill nutcase would either not have known that or not paid attention to it), NOT shoot any of several witnesses who were in the place, and then escape without anyone knowing where he went. He may think he can fly, but he's sane enough to know he just killed four police officers and that he better make himself scarce.

But ... let's take a hypothetical case of someone who actually doesn't know or understand that what they did is wrong. Basically ... so what? They still did it, and if they didn't know it was wrong it's virtually a given that if you turn them loose they'll do it again. So who is fooling whom with all this nonsense about "curing" them?

I agree with you. Actions have (or should have) consequences.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2009, 03:53:51 AM »
Updated report indicates that he was supposed to be wearing a monitoring bracelet on his ankle, and Sunday night they searched an apartment and found it cut off. I wasn't clear, but I think the article was saying the bracelet was a requirement of the bail bondsman rather than the court. Dunno if they all send an alert if cut off but, if so, one wonders who was "monitoring" the thing if he was able to cut it off early Sunday morning, go out and kill four officers, and nobody knew it had been cut off until sometime Sunday night.

I wonder what Mike Huckabee is thinking about now?
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Waitone

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2009, 04:15:15 AM »
Quote
I am not taking up for Huckabee, but lets get real here.
Fair enough.  What entries in his criminal record would not have existed had he served out his sentence without the assistance of Huckabee? 

A politican overrides the judicial system as his own peril.
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De Selby

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2009, 06:25:21 AM »
Fair enough.  What entries in his criminal record would not have existed had he served out his sentence without the assistance of Huckabee? 

A politican overrides the judicial system as his own peril.

The criticism is unfair because everyone acknowledges that you can't throw every 17 year old scumbag in prison for life.  If everyone whose jacket looked like the jacket of a potential murderer before his first murder got a life sentence, we'd have to build 100+ story prison skyscrapers in every county.

The tools do not exist to definitively identify these crooks before they do something this horrible.  Handing out a life sentence for every felony is not an acceptable alternative.

As for this case, if this turns out to be the shooter, he and any accomplices should face the toughest penalty Washington has to offer. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2009, 06:54:38 AM »
can we count huck as an accomplice?  if he hadn't sprung him he'd be in prison stil
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2009, 07:12:59 AM »
The criticism is unfair because everyone acknowledges that you can't throw every 17 year old scumbag in prison for life. [/quote]

I am not sure what you're aiming at. Nobody suggests – I think – that we should hand out a life imprisonment for every felony. But I think that harsher sentences for violent and property crimes – burglary, armed assault, rape, are the order of the day. For example, in Connecticut, the average sentence for "murder, manslaughter, sexual assault, kidnapping, robbery, and arson" had, at the time of the study, been 5.5 years. A '17-year-old-scumbag' goes to prison after an armed robbery, he comes out as a 23-year-old scumbag after spending lots of time in the prison gym. That doesn't seem right, but I see how this can happen - a guy runs with the wrong crowd, he slips up, society gives him another chance.


This guy commited 13 violent felonies. 13!

Somewhere between the sixth and the seventh violent felony, you don't think someone should have gotten the clue?
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De Selby

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2009, 07:27:53 AM »
Micro, what's the answer though? He had been nailed for robberies in Arkansas it seems, and ended up with a 60 year sentence.  That's more than some murder sentences.  Huckabee let him out after 11 years in the slammer...what I'm saying is, I don't think Huckabee should be blamed for this.  You can't always see who will end up being a raging murderer. 

Now that more is coming out, it looks like screw ups at many levels - perhaps the most unforgivable is letting someone who is facing child rape charges out on bail. 

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2009, 07:33:48 AM »
everyone acknowledges that you can't throw every 17 year old scumbag in prison for life. 

Because some of them should be executed.
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MillCreek

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2009, 08:20:16 AM »
According to the Seattle news at 0500, Mr. Clemmons is thought to be in a Seattle neighborhood approximately 40 miles north of the crime scene.  The Seattle PD is conducting a door to door search.  He may have sustained a gunshot wound to the torso and may be severely wounded or even dead. 

He is now considered a suspect, instead of a person of interest.  Police have detained several people who helped Mr. Clemmons after the shooting. 
_____________
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HankB

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2009, 08:21:11 AM »
The criticism is unfair because everyone acknowledges that you can't throw every 17 year old scumbag in prison for life.  If everyone whose jacket looked like the jacket of a potential murderer before his first murder got a life sentence, we'd have to build 100+ story prison skyscrapers in every county.
]So why don't we outsource our prisoners - at least, those with violent felonies like rape, murder, armed robbery, and child molestation - to some place like Turkey? They'd probably warehouse our bad guys for $10 a day or less. Russia has unused Gulags - we could probably get Putin to bid against the Turks.

In fact, now that I think about it, with their starvation for hard currency, Zimbabwe could probably take the baddest of our bad guys for $2 a day (that's probably about a gazillion Zimbabwe dollars) . . . so no skyscraper prisons needed.
 . . . it could be he wanted to simply kill one or two but he couldn't leave any witnesses.
According to news reports, there were other customers in the restaurant who weren't targeted; neither was the restaurant staff. Only the cops.
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roo_ster

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2009, 08:22:56 AM »
The criticism is unfair because everyone acknowledges that you can't throw every 17 year old scumbag in prison for life. 

Not everyone.  We'd prevent a lot of crimes if we nabbed the sawed-off sociapaths early. (only half kidding)

If everyone whose jacket looked like the jacket of a potential murderer before his first murder got a life sentence, we'd have to build 100+ story prison skyscrapers in every county.

The tools do not exist to definitively identify these crooks before they do something this horrible. 

Unadulterated horse manure.  The vast majority of crimes are committed by a relatively small population of sub-average intelligence repeat offenders / career criminals.  Also, if they were incarcerated during their "criminally productive years" they would have no means to be "reproductive" and the population growth of the "dumb criminal" demographic would slow.

The vast majority of murders are committed by violent repeat offenders / career criminals.

The best, highest correlation answer to why the crime rate has leveled off and fallen the last few years is because the US built many more prisons, caught violent felons, and put them behind bars for long stretches.

IOW, want to prevent future murders?  Incarcerate violent repeat felons for decades.

Fools like NYT journos bleat about how the crime rate has gone down, "but we have the highest prison population in American history."  I guess it takes a high-dollar education to beat the last vestige of common sense and logic out of our J-scholl grads.

The more not-yet-murderous career criminals we put behind bars for long stretches the fewer murders we will have.

Handing out a life sentence for every felony is not an acceptable alternative

I think fistful is your huckleberry.
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Hutch

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2009, 08:30:25 AM »
Does anyone else have a problem describing this as an "ambush"?  Every definition I've seen indicates that ambush means to attack from concealment, by surprise.  This heinous crime was an "ambush" about as much as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

Thoughts and prayers for the families...

Edited to add:  I hope the doer, if he was shot, survives to stand trial, and we can determine if this is a "lone gunman" or a member of a conspiracy.
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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2009, 10:22:29 AM »
I hope the doer, if he was shot, survives to stand trial, and we can determine if this is a "lone gunman" or a member of a conspiracy.

If he doesn't survive, the resulting lack of evidence is evidence itself of conspiracy...  [tinfoil]
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roo_ster

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brimic

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2009, 10:26:53 AM »
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Because some of them should be executed.
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vaskidmark

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2009, 11:05:22 AM »
Cops had his aunt's house surrounded for hours after a stakeout team reported him going in.  Turns out he is not in the house.  Lots of speculation on how badly he was wounded.  Nothing about why after the cops "saw him go into the house" & surrounded it, lobbed teargas in, etc. he turns out not to be there.

stay safe.

skidmark
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longeyes

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2009, 11:24:46 AM »
Quote
Micro, what's the answer though? He had been nailed for robberies in Arkansas it seems, and ended up with a 60 year sentence.  That's more than some murder sentences.  Huckabee let him out after 11 years in the slammer...what I'm saying is, I don't think Huckabee should be blamed for this.  You can't always see who will end up being a raging murderer. 

Are you sure you can handle the answer?  If it's not the equivalent of Devil's Island, it's execution.  Huckabee, if Clemmons is the perp, is guilty of the liberal disease: misguided clemency based on even more misguided compassion.  Both are killing this society.

We are all, no doubt, waiting for someone to blame semi-auto pistols rather than the obvious.
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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2009, 11:57:34 AM »
Are you sure you can handle the answer?  If it's not the equivalent of Devil's Island, it's execution.  Huckabee, if Clemmons is the perp, is guilty of the liberal disease: misguided clemency based on even more misguided compassion.  Both are killing this society.

We are all, no doubt, waiting for someone to blame semi-auto pistols rather than the obvious.

I think the reason the libs have not been screaming about this is because they would rather bring Huck down a few notches... 
... prayers for the families of the cops.
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HankB

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2009, 12:07:23 PM »
Quote
In 1990, Clemmons, then 18, was sentenced in Arkansas to 60 years in prison for burglary and theft of property, according to a news account in Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. . . .

When Clemmons received the 60-year sentence, he was already serving 48 years on five felony convictions and facing up to 95 more years on charges of robbery, theft of property and possessing a handgun on school property. Records from Clemmons' sentencing described him as 5-foot-7 and 108 pounds. The crimes were committed when he was 17.

Clemmons served 11 years before being released.

News accounts say Huckabee commuted Clemmons' sentence, citing Clemmons' young age at the time the crimes were committed.

Link:  http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010385617_webmansought29.html?syndication=rss

So Huckabee commuted the sentence of a genuine, violent, criminal with multiple felony convictions, simply because he started his one-man crime spree at an early age?!?

No question that other parts of the criminal justice system failed catastrophically, but if the facts preceeding the commutation of Clemmons' sentence are accurate as presented in the article, Huckabee's political future is - and OUGHT to be! - toast.  :mad:
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Jamisjockey

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2009, 12:13:50 PM »
Yeah, lets blame Huckabee.  Especially since Washington State released him on $150,000 bond, despite his criminal history.
Hell, Huckabee gave him Clemancy after he already served 11 years in prison.
This whole thread veer is making me go  ;/
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longeyes

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2009, 12:15:07 PM »
Huckabee's a "compassionate conservative," and his actions raise serious questions that have plagued the conservative movement for some time and will certainly come to the fore before the next election.  They also go to the heart of divisions within the Christian community as I see it.
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vaskidmark

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2009, 12:16:29 PM »
1) Now he's supposed to be somewhere around the U of Washington Hospital.  Campus alerted but not locked down.  There's a part of me that hopes he continues to roam around until sepsis sets in.  Being gut-shot is not normally a quick stop, but it can get messy after a few days.

2) The problem with incarceration as incapacitation is that the public is not willing to pay the costs.  The risk of a Clemmons going on a spree of higher-level crimes is actually fairly low.  The pity is that everybody lost on the bets that were made over time.

Using the "average length" of sentences handed down and actual time served can be quite persuasive in 8th Amendment challenges to lengthy sentences.  The case law is also rife with "extenuating and mitigating circumstances" such as learning deficits/disabilities, childhood abuse, lack of a loving family home, being the wrong color, or having someone on the jury who was born on a day ending in "Y".

Adding to this is the fact that states on the left side of the country have a historical record of lesser sentences and more permissive bail criteria.  $150,000 bail comes out to $1,500 cash or possibly $5,00 property.  A car title could have been sufficient to satisfy the bondsman.  We'll save the discussion of why the magistrate permitted bail with assault on a cop & 2nd degree rape already over his head.

About all I can do is speculate that Clemmons is the type that makes a model inmate.  When under [relatively] strict supervision and made to face consequences of his behavior [relatively] quickly these folks are quite capable of complying with extenally imposed limits.  Conversely, these same types have almost no internal locus of self-control.  Unfortunately, those who are charged with deciding whether or not to grant clemency (parole boards and governors) are more concerned with the behavioral record of the inmate than with the psychological typology and SWAG nonsense spouted by guards and other staff who deal with the individual on a daily basis.  In other words, contrary to Micro's comment, there is a fairly good way to figure out who is most likely to end up being a raging murderer.  It's just that it is a prediction and not a guarantee, and the folks who decide are politically motivated.  They know that doing something because a consequence "might" occur is generally not supported by the voters - even when it comes to criminals and spending lots more money on them.

stay safe.

skidmark
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They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

longeyes

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2009, 12:18:46 PM »
Huckabee per se is not the issue.  He is merely the agent of a certain all too prevaient way of seeing the world.  That way is called liberalism, and it doesn't become less liberalism because the man doing the acting is a fiscal conservative or a righteous believer.

Huckabee made a judgment call, and we are entitled to know on what basis his judgment was made because his values should be of concern to us, especially if he harbors Presidential aspirations.
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longeyes

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2009, 12:22:41 PM »
Incarceration is a relatively modern concept.  It's not the only solution.  One of the ancient ones is exile, for those who shy away from capital/terminal solutions.
"Domari nolo."

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MicroBalrog

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2009, 12:24:10 PM »
Vaskidmark, it was shootinstudent who made the comment re: raging murderers, not me.

Quote
Micro, what's the answer though? He had been nailed for robberies in Arkansas it seems, and ended up with a 60 year sentence.  That's more than some murder sentences.  Huckabee let him out after 11 years in the slammer...what I'm saying is, I don't think Huckabee should be blamed for this.  You can't always see who will end up being a raging murderer.

And you don't think the previous chain of violent crimes could be, you know, a hint?
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: 4 Police Officers Shot in WA
« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2009, 12:25:04 PM »
I could care less why Huckabee granted Clemency.

What I care about is what causes a fugitive to deliberately ambush 4 armed and armored police officers... what causes him to premeditatively do that.

Were these 4 officers involved in arresting the man earlier?

The most evil Rob Leatham clone from bizarro-world wouldn't take on 4 cops in vests sitting around a table.  There's a motive here, and I want to know what it is.
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