US Military Not Ready For an Attack On US...

[Bogie]

First, it's just "Ebola." Usually further defined as "Ebola Zaire," or similarly by outbreak/mutation location.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/spb/mnpages/dispages/ebola/qa.htm
 
Thus far, there haven't been non-burnout cases of aerial transmission, but that's not to say that there won't be... Smallpox also scares the heck out of me.

I could see college students getting told to "protest" by taking out power lines, etc... At the same time, take out transport routes, and you've got three days until the cities start to run out of beer...

[Strings]

kinda where I was going with it, Bogie...

 Like I said: right lil' ray of sunshine, ain't I?

[wooderson]

And here I thought I was prone to daydreaming...

[Gewehr98]

And here I thought I was prone to daydreaming...

Yup.  Daydreaming.  Just like those guys who thought about crashing a fully-fueled airliner into a skyscraper or two.

Nobody ever thinks up that stuff, do they, Wooderson?   

And we shouldn't even consider defending ourselves against something like that, either.

Of course, who'd be the first to scream outrage and incompetence were another attack to slip through? 

It's Bush's fault, ain't it? 

[wooderson]

Yup.  Daydreaming.  Just like those guys who thought about crashing a fully-fueled airliner into a skyscraper or two.

Nobody ever thinks up that stuff, do they, Wooderson?

Are you saying that Internet Commandos had concocted that exact same plan and busted out their ideas to stop it before 9/11? No?

You mean... terrorism is unpredictable?

But no, I don't think increasingly elaborate Internet fantasies about the methodology for attacking the US are particularly healthy, mentally...

Of course, who'd be the first to scream outrage and incompetence were another attack to slip through? 

Probably the political enemies of whomever happened to be in power at the time.

Just a guess.

[seeker_two]

The WTC attacks are small potatoes now.

Anything from that point on has to be more spectacular, because nobody's going to get away with a box cutter hijacking these days, and in particular they need to bolster recruitment efforts as they continue to martyr themselves over time.   

Think something like a jar of anthrax spores released into the Super Bowl.   

Forget the Super Bowl......a truck bomb at a local high-school football game or shopping mall will put an even greater fear into the American people. That will bring the WOT to every person's doorstep....

Quick look at the crystal ball shows me something VERY disturbing...

 Any attack here in CONUS is going to involve sleepers: they're not going to be visually obvious as BGs (except when they shoot at others). The military and police are going to be severely hampered by the fact that they can't tell the good from the bad. Which is going to result in militias trying to do the job (and respond to basically random occurances).

 Want to know what the end result will look like? Watch Reservoir Dogs. The "Mexican Standoff" at the end, only on a MUCH larger scale. America will get to see first-hand just how hot "low-intensity conflict" actually is.

....and when the military tries to stop civilian militias from attacking people, it'll make Unintended Consequences look like a light comedy....

[Manedwolf]

....and when the military tries to stop civilian militias from attacking people, it'll make Unintended Consequences look like a light comedy....

Of course, this is why a lot of the weapons I have can go away very quickly to as to avoid being pointed at as "There's one of them!" by an mistaken and understandably edgy LEO or soldier. I believe the assumption is that there's multiple shooters unless it's proven otherwise, which does make sense, but can get you unintentionally targeted.

Those include a folding-stock AK with an American-style rail system completely covering the distinctive gas tube, and the fastest-to-deploy-and-tuck compact long gun I've yet found, Kel-Tec's Sub 2000. Because in my opinion, if someone was going around your neighborhood, mall, school or any place you're at doing the jihad thing, your best chance of survival would be to stop the threat, and then put your own gun completely out of sight before any good guys see you through a scope. Walking around with a weapon on a single-point sling, even if you thought you were "helping" defend your neighborhood, would be a good way to get shot by mistake, IMO.

(note with the AK...I think if you have one, you really want to disguise the profile if you consider it an emergency carry weapon. That distinctive gas tube's sihouette would otherwise say BAD GUY RIFLE to lots of soldiers who have already served overseas, I'd think.)

[Gewehr98]

Are you saying that Internet Commandos had concocted that exact same plan and busted out their ideas to stop it before 9/11? No?

You mean... terrorism is unpredictable?

But no, I don't think increasingly elaborate Internet fantasies about the methodology for attacking the US are particularly healthy, mentally...

Ok, Wooderson.  My hat's off to you, and my former employers should've hired you to game plan their strategy against incidents of domestic terrorism.  We could've parked our WC-135s on alert back in the boneyard again, you'd be a lot cheaper.

They're stupid for having their staff think up scenarios and responses while on the government dime, aren't they? 

[wooderson]

Are your former employers Internet Commandos?

[Tecumseh]

They'll see it as a weakness, and in their culture, weaknesses are to be exploited. Period.

  It seems that the universal theme I have heard from these terrorists is that if you leave them and stay out of hte Middle East, they would not attack us or our allies.  How about we try that?

[Bogie]

But the world is no longer made up of nation-states, days, weeks, months, or even years of travel away from each other.
 
Like it or not, their culture is now part of a global economy. Which means that they're gonna be over here, and we're gonna be over there.
 
If nobody buys their oil, it will inconvenience the rest of the world for a bit... But people will adapt. But their countries would self-destruct.
 

[RevDisk]

Revive?  We never gave it up.

Mane, feds would never go for that.  Too much power given to the states. 

I foresee an expanded DHS.

I'd like to see DHS go and have the Civil Defence like during the cold war era come back.

What, with cheerful yellow hardhats, and duck-and-cover films? I thought that was mostly just feelgood thumbsucking for the masses. They knew full well that a nuclear war would be unsurvivable, so they gave people stuff that made them feel useful.

I remember reading an old CD pamphlet about making bomb shelters that explained that radiation could be defeated by putting a right angle in the entrance to your shelter.

I'd agree with that mostly.  With a couple exceptions.  Amateur radio especially.  They got a lot of the electromagnetic spectrum (relatively speaking, of course) because of their value to civil defense and emergency responce.  Check USRACES for one example.  Generally, a significant part of any communications still functioning in any disaster area is provided by amateur radio volunteers.   The military sponsors MARS, Military Affiliate Radio System, and there is extremely good coordination between the DoD and licensed amateur radio operators as a worldwide auxiliary emergency communications system. 

The brass is more worried about NDs than their men's ability to protect themselves and perform their duties.

SUch as you describe is, IMO, only possible in a NG unit with older guys less willing to tolerate BS and more careful with their own hides.

Pretty much.  Depends on the NG unit, but yes, a lot of them carry personal weapons if not issued ammo.  Fun to dodge your own commanders as well as possible enemies.  Sigh.  Your first statement is so true you have no idea.

What they are talking about is a major NBC attack.  Other than the existing Marine NBC response unit (a Rein. Company?) stood up a couple years back there's no single large response force trained and equipped to respond.  An NG infantry unit with MP's and NBC specialists with organic transpo would be perfect for that kind of response and could also cover any potential large-scale coordinated 5th column action (the only invasion that pencils out at all).

Perhaps you should tell the Weapons of Mass Destruction Civil Support Teams (WMD-CST) that.  There is one about 45 minutes to an hour away from my home at a NG base under state control.  I won't get overly specific, but it was near a motor pool we used often enough. 3rd CST, operational since Aug 2001.  Through the Smokers Association (ie, shooting the breeze with fellow smokers) I got a lil tour of their equipment.  All things considered, not bad.  Small, yes.  A mobile lab, a command RV, and a lot of black Suburbians.  But their entire point is to link up with other resources (NG, feds, whoever) and provide technical expertise.



One of Clinton's few ideas I agreed with. 

[Matthew Carberry]

Rev,

I actually started typing this frustrated, but thought twice.  Still I'm not going to change what I wrote, just be aware I'm calmer now.

I'm not sure why this topic is so controversial, everybody seems to have their neck hair up.

Anyway, what I wrote a minute ago....

I thought I was perfectly clear in that snippet you quoted that the only Federal-specific unit I was aware of was the Marine unit. 

Also I believe I stated that the NG is, in my opinion, the perfect group to do that job.  So I'm glad they already are.

My larger point was that this is kind of a non-issue, a big "what-if" of extremely low statistical probablility.

Almost every country in the world, whether they agree with us on Iraq or not, is now hyper alert about massing of known terrorist associates and of chatter in every spectrum.  If the sleeper cells aren't here in CONUS already, they are not going to just trip gaily in.  As much as I deride our security theatre and lack of border security, it is just plain difficult to get across the oceans in any numbers with any amount of equipment, even today.

It took everything Al Quaeda had to pull off 9/11 and they came this close to getting caught even without a coherent group of agencies in this country looking for them and with them having more-or-less free rein in Germany and their other training and assembly sites.  In today's world it will be just that much harder.

It is as likely that another McVeigh will blow up a high school football game or another what's his name will shoot a few people around Washington as it is that some immigrant will.  The realistic threats haven't changed a whit, and can be dealt with in the same manner as always.

[Manedwolf]

Are your former employers Internet Commandos?

Wooderson, he's retired Air Force AFAIK.

I think you ought to close your mouth now, because your own foot is heading for it at mach 2.

[Bogie]

Ah, but the adversaries are not massing. If you trickle ONE in per day, and none of them know each other, and they're all just waiting for a signal... These guys are patient. VERY patient. After all, they've been fighting a war for hundreds of years.
 

[RevDisk]

Rev,

I actually started typing this frustrated, but thought twice.  Still I'm not going to change what I wrote, just be aware I'm calmer now.

I'm not sure why this topic is so controversial, everybody seems to have their neck hair up.

Anyway, what I wrote a minute ago....

Whoops, I apologize.  I didn't mean to sound like I had my hair up.  Part of the problem with the internet is often it's hard to understand someone's tone in a nonverbal medium.  I should have said something along the lines of "That is a good idea, and it's been implemented."

I thought I was perfectly clear in that snippet you quoted that the only Federal-specific unit I was aware of was the Marine unit. 

Also I believe I stated that the NG is, in my opinion, the perfect group to do that job.  So I'm glad they already are.

My larger point was that this is kind of a non-issue, a big "what-if" of extremely low statistical probablility.

Almost every country in the world, whether they agree with us on Iraq or not, is now hyper alert about massing of known terrorist associates and of chatter in every spectrum.  If the sleeper cells aren't here in CONUS already, they are not going to just trip gaily in.  As much as I deride our security theatre and lack of border security, it is just plain difficult to get across the oceans in any numbers with any amount of equipment, even today.

It took everything Al Quaeda had to pull off 9/11 and they came this close to getting caught even without a coherent group of agencies in this country looking for them and with them having more-or-less free rein in Germany and their other training and assembly sites.  In today's world it will be just that much harder.

It is as likely that another McVeigh will blow up a high school football game or another what's his name will shoot a few people around Washington as it is that some immigrant will.  The realistic threats haven't changed a whit, and can be dealt with in the same manner as always.

There's actually a couple different units.  The Marine unit and an Army quasi equiv (Technical Escort Unit) are moreso just normal military units with better MOPP gear.  No offense the to CBIRF, they are good at what they do.  Agree with ya that the NG is the right choice.  The CST's under equipped, under funded and under staffed, but who ain't? 

I do have to disagree with ya on one point. Terrorism NBC is a low probability, completely agree with you.  However, NBC is NOT a low probability.  Gimme the contents of the cleaning supplies under your kitchen sink, and you can create a chemical weapon.  Most NBC incidents are accidents, not terrorism.  Having someone skilled at detection and throughly skilled at HAZMAT handling is a must.  The good news is that experience with routine accidents helps prepare you for 'the real thing' (which isn't, it's a freakin statistical anomoly, but I digress.).  The 3rd CST responded to the anthrax letters in Washington.  A couple dozen industrial accidents and other ordinary chemical spills gave them the necessary skills to appropriately respond. 

I don't think we need to go hog wild on extremely rare events, which terrorism is.  The anthrax thing was 'domestic' terrorism.  So was OKC and numerous other incidents.  Foreign terrorism is very rare, and not an easy thing to pull off.  The logistics of such are a nightmare, as you point out.  Tis why I go nuts when people proclaim that the Constitution must be gutted to save us from this rare and unlikely type of attack.  Natural disasters and simple accidents are often similiar in nature to terrorist attacks, from the technical perspective rather than the psychological perspective.  We do need to be prepared for such events.  We don't need to go off the handle, as I think our government is doing these days. 

My solution to "defending the US" ?   Keep the NG decently equipped, keep specialized units/teams well practiced, and hold joint exercises more often.  That's it.  We don't need a rapid response force of division sized ready to jump anywhere in the US.  We need better communication between folks, that's the only real concern with defending the US from foreign attack.

[roo_ster]

They'll see it as a weakness, and in their culture, weaknesses are to be exploited. Period.

  It seems that the universal theme I have heard from these terrorists is that if you leave them and stay out of hte Middle East, they would not attack us or our allies.  How about we try that?

Been tried.  Spanish pulled up stakes and got outta Iraq. 

Didn't keep the terrorists from plotting and planning more terrorism in Spain.

[Boomhauer]

All you appeasers on this forum, I don't know what you think you are getting out of opposing the war against the terrorists.

They want you dead. If you are not a devout Muslim, they want you dead. They might let you out of it if you convert to Islam, they might not.

They would be happy to sacrifice however many believers/sympathizers it takes to rule you.

They will use WHATEVER means to achieve their goals of total domination. They don't whine about torture camps, waterboarding, etc unless used against them. They don't care about Amnesty International, except that currently, organizations like that support their cause, and are useful.

I, for one, am NOT willing to live under a Muslim controlled state. I will NOT convert to Islam. I will NOT accept Islamic law. I fight to my last breath to prevent this when the time comes.

If we wiped out a few unfriendly nations in the Mideast, I would be damned happy. I'm just returning the favor- they wish me dead, I wish them dead. Religion of Peace, my ass.

[De Selby]

All you appeasers on this forum, I don't know what you think you are getting out of opposing the war against the terrorists.

They want you dead. If you are not a devout Muslim, they want you dead. They might let you out of it if you convert to Islam, they might not.

They would be happy to sacrifice however many believers/sympathizers it takes to rule you.

They will use WHATEVER means to achieve their goals of total domination. They don't whine about torture camps, waterboarding, etc unless used against them. They don't care about Amnesty International, except that currently, organizations like that support their cause, and are useful.

I, for one, am NOT willing to live under a Muslim controlled state. I will NOT convert to Islam. I will NOT accept Islamic law. I fight to my last breath to prevent this when the time comes.

If we wiped out a few unfriendly nations in the Mideast, I would be damned happy. I'm just returning the favor- they wish me dead, I wish them dead. Religion of Peace, my ass.

You honestly believe that if George Bush became Muslim and forced the whole country to adopt the Saudi "legal" system, but changed not a single US foreign policy, Bin laden would give up the whole thing and be happy?

There are religious actors in the conflict, but this is not a religious war and never has been.  Bin Laden and his criminal conspiracy don't care what religion you are; they're more than happy to kill Muslims whenever it suits their purposes, and one of the prime targets for his terrorism is Saudi Arabia....so I don't think it makes much sense to allege that he "hates your freedom."

What I wish is that the "us" and "them" in this debate could be used without referring to religion-I'm an American, that's who I'm with.  Bin Laden is a man with no country and who fights any country-and he has proven that his principles always take a back seat to his maniacal politics, religious issues notwithstanding. 

[Manedwolf]

What I wish is that the "us" and "them" in this debate could be used without referring to religion-I'm an American, that's who I'm with.

Then stop being an apologist for people who want to destroy America.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but 99% of the people in the world trying to hurt us, actively trying to kill our troops and plot things to hurt civilians here and in Europe are young Muslim males. And they do horrific things, from just now sending two mentally disabled women to blow themselves up in Baghdad to sawing the heads off hostages. You're not even allowed to leave the religion, or you're an apostate, and they'll kill you too.

And that is simply a fact.

Your religion needs a good self-cleansing instead of denial about the rotting that's going on within it, the barbaric acts, the belief that barbaric acts are okay, and the 12th century backwards ideas of how women should be treated. Every place Islamic extremists go has become an orgy of blood and destruction, with bombings and factional violence and civilization falling apart...and they're spreading. And unless Muslims face up to that fact and DO something, all that's left will be the extremists, who will have to be put down like a rabid animal to save human civilization.

[Antibubba]

No, not really.  Its a bit disturbing the AP is reporting it worldwide.  Nothing says, aid and abet like putting the weakness of the American Military under the magnifying glass of the world press.  The fact that a retired Marine Major General is the foghorn for the report is also disappointing.  If he is no longer in the game, why would he criticize the players?  The lack of a co-coordinated defense plan for the contiguous states dates back to the forties so this really isnt news now.  The cost of the study could have been better spent planning to correct the problem.  It looks like a typical congress-critter expenditure to me.     
 

Tin foil hats on!!

Perhaps an attack on home soil is a desirable thing, from a certain point of view.  Most of America was 150% gung ho after the WTC attacks, and it would certainly allow one political faction to attack another political faction for weakening their resolve.

'Course, I don't believe that.  I also don't think the major terror organizations are looking at another galvanizing attack on America.  I don't think Osama was looking forward to cave-dwelling.  I think they've focusing on their own home countries--better to create the caliphate at home, first, before working on the Great Satan.

That doesn't eliminate the fringe groups or the true crazies, though...

[De Selby]

What I wish is that the "us" and "them" in this debate could be used without referring to religion-I'm an American, that's who I'm with.

Then stop being an apologist for people who want to destroy America.

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but 99% of the people in the world trying to hurt us, actively trying to kill our troops and plot things to hurt civilians here and in Europe are young Muslim males. And they do horrific things, from just now sending two mentally disabled women to blow themselves up in Baghdad to sawing the heads off hostages. You're not even allowed to leave the religion, or you're an apostate, and they'll kill you too.

And that is simply a fact.

Your religion needs a good self-cleansing instead of denial about the rotting that's going on within it. And unless Muslims face up to that fact and DO something, all that's left will be the extremists, who will have to be put down mercilessly to save human civilization.

Sorry, but saying that all Muslims aren't terrorists, and that Bin Laden and his crazies aren't secretly using US mosques to force you to pray, is not "apologizing for crazies."  It's pointing out that many, many people are letting the hype scare them into treating Americans who are Muslim as if they're terror suspects-and also advocating things that are divisive and nasty to their fellow Americans, like, eg, the people who say "we should nuke Mecca!"  or "they ought to be humiliated! When they know their religion is false, they'll all just stop!".  I have seen both of those things said on this very forum-and elsewhere.

"My religion" is not a human being, so it can't do anything, nor can it be personally responsible for the deeds of others.  I'm sorry, but as an individualist, I find the idea that I can be in any way held responsible for Bin Laden's doings to be outrageous and flatly un-American.

You are going after all Muslims because of what some individual Muslims do-and claiming that we have some special responsibility to act based on what terrorists do.  I oppose that, and you call it "apologizing for those who want to destroy America."

I call it "pointing out that individuals should be treated as individuals, and should not be forced to answer for the conduct of others on the mere fact that they happen to profess the same religion."

As for your statistics, 99 percent of statistics are made up on the spot.  But aside from the ubiquitous 99 percent hyperbole, it is equally true to say that 99 percent of child molestors in America are Americans.  Does that mean that we should hold every American responsible for the "global assault on children", and that we need to crack down on American rights to "end the destruction of our future generations at the hands of armies of molestors"

Think about the logic you are applying here-if you apply to any other situation, it is downright scary.  I think Muslims in America who hear this kind of talk are right to be worried about it.

[Manedwolf]

You know what?

Go ahead. Keep being an apologist.

The frustrating thing is that I hear this from more and more "moderate" Muslims.

So go ahead and keep on denying that your religion has a problem. Let the extremists keep spreading instead of staying NO! and destroying them, revealing them, exposing them yourself.

Because Islam will not destroy civilization. All that will happen is that the extremists will destroy Islam by rotting it from the core into nothing but a death-cult, eliminating all the "moderates" and anyone who wants peace.

And then the rest of world can, without remorse, utterly destroy what's left in the failed nation-states that will result, because there's nothing to save, no peaceful people left in it. There's no danger that it will destroy Western civilization, Western civilization is too powerful. It's just holding back.

Keep up the current course, and it won't have a reason to hold back anymore. You're just dooming your own religion.

So please. Go ahead.

[De Selby]

So go ahead and keep on denying that your religion has a problem. Let the extremists keep spreading instead of staying NO! and destroying them, revealing them, exposing them yourself.

Wait, so you think that moderate Muslims are covering up for Bin Laden?

What exactly do you think is going on? Muslims know of terrorists but just don't report them? Or what?  What is the allegation you're making here?

The US military can't find bin laden, but "the muslims" generally are supposed to "destroy, reveal, and expose" every terrorist?  This is really an absurd thing to demand.  Terrorists don't go advertising that they're terrorists-there's not a secret conspiracy of Muslims where we get let in on the identities of these people.  But it seems like you are alleging just that...do you honestly believe we mostly know who these people are, but just choose not to tell on them? Or what?

Because Islam will not destroy civilization. All that will happen is that the extremists will destroy Islam by rotting it from the core into nothing but a death-cult, eliminating all the "moderates" and anyone who wants peace.

Where are these extremists winning?  What country are they "tranforming into a death cult"?

I'd honestly like your response to my concerns about individualism.  Do you not think that what you are doing is judging a mass of people based on the conduct of other individuals?  Or do you admit that it is, but you just don't think it's wrong?

What's your theory behind this? Is religious discrimination okay, as long as enough members of a religion are bad people??? 

I don't see how you can reconcile a purported belief in individual rights with the logic you're using to condemn my statements about Islam. 

[Strings]

sad part is, both Maned and SS are right to a degree...

 The extremist Muslims are using their faith as a handy excuse, but that's all it is: an excuse to act in a barbaric manner. And I have heard PLENTY of moderate Muslims speak out openly against terror...

 If you were to somehow remove the "religious motivation" from this conflict, not a whole lot would change: the terrorists would STILL be trying to hit us. Unfortunately, I have to say that US policy has helped create this monster (just not the policies most think of)...