Can you say "Birth Control??"

[MicroBalrog]

Obviously, my post is parody.

If one can parody the "we are being oppressed" sentiment, then I can parody the inverse.

If you can laugh at the wookie suit guys, I can laugh at the tie-wearers.

[makattak]

That's quite a lot of kids.

One more and they'll have equaled my paternal grandparents.

Of course, the difference is, this family seems to be able to support their progeny.

[Gowen]

Well, the kids can take a pass on getting a big inheritance from the parents, 1/19th share.

I have 4 aunts and 7 uncles from my dads side, yep, for those who kept score 12 kids, and no, they were not Mormon or Catholic.

[roo_ster]

Well, since they can afford their large family, more power to them.

Most kids form super-sized families I have know have been good folks.

As far as the 1/19 share of an inheritance, my reaction is, "Meh."

I figure that if my folks blow every penny, but leave enough to plant them in the ground, they'll be doing well.  I hope they enjoy all the money they worked hard for and feel like I am owed not one red cent.

[tyme]

What exactly is the point of having so many kids?

Oh.  They are members of a cult.  Should have known.

Putting your family on a reality show is not a sign of good mental health.

Of course I'm biased, like everyone else, but I'd prefer that parents keen on having large families are 1) smart and 2) not members of cults.  The Duggar parents are questionable on criterion 1 (evangelicals tend to be morons, but I don't know enough about the Duggars in particular to know for sure), and fail criterion 2.

[Perd Hapley]

tyme, I'd ask you explain why you think the Quiverfolk are a cult, but given the bigotry you display, why bother? 

Obviously, my post is parody.  If one can parody the "we are being oppressed" sentiment, then I can parody the inverse.  If you can laugh at the wookie suit guys, I can laugh at the tie-wearers. 

If your post made any sense at all, you only succeeded in making sport of those heroes of the revolution who are ready to overthrow the dastardly rule of Mommy and Daddy. 

Why does it seem to me that the word "responsibility" has been stretched a lot lately?

I think it's "opression" or "abuse" that are getting stretched.  Since you're so sex-positive, I hope you're not taking a child-negative position.  Are you? 

[taurusowner]

What exactly is the point of having so many kids?

Oh.  They are members of a cult.  Should have known.

Putting your family on a reality show is not a sign of good mental health.

Of course I'm biased, like everyone else, but I'd prefer that parents keen on having large families are 1) smart and 2) not members of cults.  The Duggar parents are questionable on criterion 1 (evangelicals tend to be morons, but I don't know enough about the Duggars in particular to know for sure), and fail criterion 2.

Care to explain how their beliefs fit the definition of a cult?

[tyme]

Cult: n. 1.  A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Encouraging people (in God's name) to have as many children as they're biologically capable of is extreme.  Most evangelical christian churches have charismatic leaders, but in any case asserting that the group's central directive comes from God is the ultimate in authoritarianism.  I think the burden is on you to explain why this Quiverfull nonsense is NOT a cult.

[taurusowner]

Exactly which charismatic leader are they following again?

[tyme]

It looks like the Duggars (Jim Bob and Michelle) have become charismatic leaders of sorts for the movement.  How they got started, I don't know, and it seems unlikely that I could figure it out now that they've had 20 years to apply historical revisionism to their early motivations.

[taurusowner]

So you're saying the Duggars have set themselves up as a leader of the cult, and that the other members have to follow them?

[MicroBalrog]

You know that historians of religion avoid using the word 'cult', right?

[Perd Hapley]

Micro, there's not much point in making rational criticism of such anti-religious mania.  Just be glad that someone made not one, but two posts more ridiculous than your rant against the Parental Tyranny. 

But hey, at least we've found a lifestyle choice we can criticize without being accused of hate speech.  Poor Duggars.  They should have just listened to Planned Parenthood; murdered those kids in the womb.  At least that wouldn't offend anybody. 

[Matthew Carberry]

If you have an idea, and it becomes known, and other people choose to join in, and you form a voluntary association to discuss it, how exactly is that a "cult"?

By that definition APS is a cult and fistful is Our Charismatic Scapegoat.

Deciding to not use contraception and trusting in God (or nature) to control your fertility is hardly "extreme" as far as beliefs, religious or not, go.

[MicroBalrog]

You would be sorely mistaken if you took me for a great fan of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

But I recognize that - unlike what some would have us believe - Evangelicals are probably, overall, a positive influence on modern politics, and furthermore, that calling certain groups of people 'cults' because you disagree with their beliefs is... not informative.

[roo_ster]

Cult: n. 1.  A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Encouraging people (in God's name) to have as many children as they're biologically capable of is extreme.

Uh, your link supports neither the definition copypasta'd(1) nor your synopsis(2). 

Are you reading some other link you have yet to share or just writing what you wished the link said?



Notes:
(1) Not seeing any authoritarian leader type in the wiki.  And even if one were to concede the Duggars are now somehow leaders of this, I do not see any mechanism for them to assert authority on others that share their beliefs.

(2) I read nothing about maximizing offspring, which would require affirmative action. On the contrary, they simply do nothing to prevent pregnancy.  Furthermore, the link provided explicitly states they do not use the rhythm method, which has some facility for increasing the odds of pregnancy.  In any case, truly maximize one's offspring in this age would require the use of fertility drugs, which are mentioned in the wiki as something to be avoided.


To put a finer point on it, I suspect the initial cult claim was an example of "talking out yer backside" and the later posts as "covering yer backside." 

[Perd Hapley]

fistful is Our Charismatic Scapegoat.

That much I agree with. 

It may be helpful to keep in mind that, until fairly recently, most Christian denominations did not look kindly on birth control.  Or so I am told.  It's a little bit troublesome to pin the cult label on a group, when their main distinctive is observing a more traditonal doctrinal position. 

For the record, and without getting into detail, my wife and I are nowhere near the Quiverful point of view. 

[Gewehr98]

I think there's only one post, and one poster, who went so far as to describe the Duggars as "cultists". 

I'm not saying I agree with that point of view, just that it's a somewhat lonely opinion in this particular thread.

[Perd Hapley]

Then there's the issue of a forum administrator claiming that evangelicals tend to be morons.  Yikes.  While I know any number of evangelicals who give that impression, still...

[Balog]

I'd think any poster (let alone a mod/admin) calling people of any religious persuasion insulting names would be grounds for corrective action. Perhaps our friend tyme would care to apologize to all the forumites he's just slandered. Or are Christians now part of the "groups it's ok to call names on APS" club?

[Strings]

Ok. So we have a couple that is having a bunch of babies.

They're not using drugs to do it.

They're not on the public dole to support the kids.

The kids seem fairly well adjusted.

And members of THIS forum are making a fuss?

What the hell: did DU infiltrate while I wasn't looking?

I've seen such arguments and accusations thrown on some of the pagan boards. For the record, the one I used to mod banned a poster for starting up on these people.

 When (and if) they become a drag on society, THEN y'all can start critisizing. S'long's they're taking care of their own business, we should keep our noses out!

[tyme]

Uh oh, I've been outed as an anti-cult cultist!

I'd think any poster (let alone a mod/admin) calling people of any religious persuasion insulting names

Evangelical fundamentalists, which is the large subset of evangelicals to which I was referring, are not morons.  I'm sorry if that was taken by anyone as a personal insult, and I was not intending to demean anyone's intelligence.  I was trying to condense to a word the conflict between science and their advocacy of certain parts of their belief system, and it doesn't condense well to one word.  I have it on good authority that evangelicals are "probably, overall, a positive influence on modern politics."

(1) Not seeing any authoritarian leader type in the wiki.  And even if one were to concede the Duggars are now somehow leaders of this, I do not see any mechanism for them to assert authority on others that share their beliefs.

First of all, the husbands and/or fathers seem to be the real authoritarians in this cult.  And I'm sure they all have reasonably charismatic leaders of their local churches.

The Duggars have thier own reality TV show, which promises to be little more than an advertisement for the Quiverfull movement.  They self-identify as Quiverfull adherents.  They don't have to assert authority over anyone.  They're walking examples of the prosperity possible under their *gag* wonderful lifestyle.  Like Tom Cruise for Scientology.

(2) I read nothing about maximizing offspring, which would require affirmative action. On the contrary, they simply do nothing to prevent pregnancy.  Furthermore, the link provided explicitly states they do not use the rhythm method, which has some facility for increasing the odds of pregnancy.  In any case, truly maximizing one's offspring in this age would require the use of fertility drugs, which are mentioned in the wiki as something to be avoided.

Wow, that's a pretty nice twisting of concepts.  They go further than doing nothing to prevent pregnancy.  They have sex.

They're not maximizing offspring because they don't resort to heroic scientific methods that may or may not increase the average number of births per woman.  Of course!  The fact that the women are still baby factories means nothing.  Of course you're right, it's not technically maximized if fertility drugs and artificial insemination could increase the average birth rate by even .1 children per woman per lifetime.  It's not clear to me that they would increase it.  Fertility drugs increase multiple pregnancies which increase complications which increase chances of future infertility, and artificial insemination often doesn't work even with fertility drugs... thought I don't know statistics, perhaps the success rate is better than attempting to conceive naturally these days?  Those are still heroic scientific methods, and they could easily be rejected by cult doctrine for that reason alone.

Officially advocating the rhythm method would give women an excuse for not having sex when they're probably not fertile.  I suspect that's why it's not advocated.  The Quiverfull cult also emphasizes patriarchy.  Or maybe they don't advocate the rhythm method because they're so drunk on the kool-aid that they can't read a calendar.  I have no idea which.

It may be helpful to keep in mind that, until fairly recently, most Christian denominations did not look kindly on birth control.
But hey, at least we've found a lifestyle choice we can criticize without being accused of hate speech.  Poor Duggars.  They should have just listened to Planned Parenthood; murdered those kids in the womb.

In mainstream Christian denominations, people violate that prohibition all the time.  Not so in the extremist cult denominations.  The women can't violate it without being kicked out, and often in multi-generational cults like this, that means giving up the only social support network they've ever known.

It doesn't look like a lifestyle choice.  It looks like coercion.
They should listen to Planned Parenthood, but not about abortion.  Believe it or not, PP offers a lot of information in addition to their pamphlets on "how to cheaply hire a licensed hitman to kill your child."

You're so concerned about the parents rights.  That's fine to a degree, but shouldn't you be just as concerned about kids who are being raised to believe that their purpose in life is to be baby factories?  This is not Saudi Arabia.  That crap shouldn't fly, and it shouldn't be permitted in the name of parents' rights.

[MicroBalrog]

Permitted?

Are you implying these people should be somehow 'prohibited' from having more children?

How do you propose we deal with this?

If you suggest this is probably not the best way to raise a family, I'm with you all the way. I begin to be concerned when the words 'permitted' and 'allowed' are being heard.

[Stand_watie]

What exactly is the point of having so many kids?

Oh.  They are members of a cult.  Should have known.

Putting your family on a reality show is not a sign of good mental health.

Of course I'm biased, like everyone else, but I'd prefer that parents keen on having large families are 1) smart and 2) not members of cults.  The Duggar parents are questionable on criterion 1 (evangelicals tend to be morons, but I don't know enough about the Duggars in particular to know for sure), and fail criterion 2.

Wonder how quick a moderator would step on me if I made the same inferences about Muslims :rolleyes:

[zahc]

Officially advocating the rhythm method would give women an excuse for not having sex when they're probably not fertile.  I suspect that's why it's not advocated.

As someone with firsthand experience with timing-based birth control, I strongly suspect so as well. I would advise any males to think carefully about the possible social ramifications of such methods. I wouldn't quite put it as harshly as "giving them an excuse not to have sex" but I think there are some rather strong psychological effects introduced when the woman knows that she cannot get pregnant. The resulting vicious cycle of never having sex when she's fertile and then never having sex when she's not fertile either can indeed be very effective birth control, but without many of the advantages of bachelorhood.

Also, the "rhythm method" technically refers to crude calendar-based methods that are ineffective (depending on your definition of effective). Methods of timing-based birth control that use physiological symptoms to determine actual ovulation with a substantial degree of accuracy are known as fertility awareness methods (FAM).