Interactive Map of Botched Paramilitary Police Raids

[seeker_two]

IRS has their own SWAT team, actually. Just like the Dept of Education...  

I have a feeling that I may one day run afoul of the Department of Education SWAT team.....I know too much for a public school graduate....  

[roo_ster]

What is the point of this map?  Is it to show that we shouldn't have police capable of raiding violent criminals?  To resonate with our anti-police or anti-government fears?

To get a count of some sort.

Accidental firearms deaths are tabulated and accounted for as a matter of course (and maybe law) by hospitals & gov't.  Botched paramilitary raids of American citizens & other residents are a whole lot more difficult to quantify and there is no gov't system & methodology to capture & quantify them.

Also to bury the lie that these things are infrequent and isolated incidents.

[Strings]

>Yet I bet that most of you have been wronged by an auto mechanic, and probably will in the future FAR more than you will ever be wronged by a police officer<

An auto mechanic wronging me doesn't result in my wife being traumatized and my pets being killed...

>What is the point of this map?  Is it to show that we shouldn't have police capable of raiding violent criminals?  To resonate with our anti-police or anti-government fears?<

Is it maybe to show where police have misused their authority?

>What if the Brady group came up with a map showing every accidental firearms injury occurred over the years?  Would anyone here think a map like that was a compelling reason to eliminate private firearms ownership?  Heck no, we'd all be pointing out the logical fallacy of using unfortunate but inevitable human errors as a basis for condemning an otherwise useful and necessary aspect of life.<

"Unfortunate but inevitable human errors"? Do you REALLY think police conducting unnecessary no-knock raids against innocent folks qualifies there?

>As long as humans are fallible there will be accidents involving private firearms and accidents involving police.  The fact remains that both police and RKBA are good and proper things.  And it concerns me to see graphical presentations such as this one that seem designed to appeal to emotion more so than to reason.<

Police are useful and necessary. SWAT raids for basic searches, especially when they have a tendancy of being mistaken? Not so much...

>Let us be careful not to misuse this tool (or allow it to be misused) in this manner.<

But we're talking about a tool that IS being misused. This map just shows a bit of the pattern...

[taurusowner]

An auto mechanic wronging me doesn't result in my wife being traumatized and my pets being killed...

I had no idea you had lost pets and had your wife traumatized by police.  I'm sorry that happened to you.

[taurusowner]

Good parsing.

I do not object to LEOs, but LEOs ought to have the same authority as ordinary citizens and the reverse ought to be true.  I am not one for special classes of citizens.

You are incorrect about how any gun owner has as much ability to harm me.  LEOs have a much greater ability to harm any random citizen.  I could go into details, but do I really need to?  This one is pretty obvious.

This is likely correct.  The gravity of harm, however, must be taken into account.  My favorite excoriated former SecDef posited a sort of mathematical formula that consisted of probability * gravity to rate a threat.  

Do you know what a Risk Assessment Matrix is?  I'll show you.


You mentioned the probability * gravity, and you're right.  What you have with a police raid going wrong is a situation that is catastrophic in terms of severity, yet very very low in terms of probability.  With other risks, like the aforementioned getting scammed by an auto-mechanic, the severity could range from negligible to critical (next time a young couple trying to make ends meet is told they need to sink $2000+ into a new transmission when they don't really need to, tell them it's not a big deal).  And yet the probability of you or any one of us getting overcharged or even royally screwed by a mechanic in our lives is Likely-Frequent.

A big deal is made about a few highly publicized police events that happen to fit the emotional agenda of some posters.  I would wager nearly every single one of you will never experience such an event in your entire life.  But like I said, over-hyping these events fits with an overall anti-authority theme, so you let it slide.  Yet other times people in other professions screw you over, and frequently, it's ignored because there is no big deal to be made about a grease monkey charging $478 for a $35 part and 20 minutes of work.

It's just plain that some people have an agenda, and either go out in search of stories about these highly infrequent events to back up that agenda, or allow themselves to be hyped by the media because it strengthens their emotional attachment to said agenda.  To be blunt, it's really no different than an anti combing a stack of news stories about gun owners for the handful that legitimately show a gun owner who acted recklessly, and totally disregarding the pile of incidents when gun owners act correctly.  They only allow themselves to see things that fit the conclusion they have already made.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

But we're talking about a tool that IS being misused. This map just shows a bit of the pattern...

If the question is "are police raids being misused?", then the map is the wrong tool to search for an answer.  Cherry picking data and only looking at one aspect of the situation does not lead to sound conclusions.

I have no bone in the police raid abuse/misuse debate.  I just hope that people think it through before letting their opinions be swayed by data that is incomplete, incidental, and possibly meaningless (if taken on its own).  A graphic like that one, to me, seems likely to be misapplied.

[taurusowner]

I just hope that people think it through before letting their opinions be swayed by partial, incidental, and possibly meaningless (on its own) data.  A graphic like that one, to me, seems likely to be misapplied.

I don't think what's happening here is people being swayed in their opinion.  I think people have firmly entrenched opinions that really can't be swayed, and are deliberately looking for data that only fits the opinion they already have.

[alex_trebek]

The risk assessment matrix can be subjective.

Applying the rules that I use at work I would have to objectively (as much as possible) classify the risk as "high."

I say this based on my criteria:
1. Unnecessary loss of human life (often innocent or at least undeserving) has happened before, and is quite possible in the execution of these warrants/raids. This requires a catastrophic rating.
2. The cut off for unlikely is 1 in a million odds of occurance. Have 330 or more no knock warrants been executed in the US? if so then the rate is greater than 1 in a million. Therefore using the matrix a risk assessment of high is assigned.

Now is it worth the risk? Some might choose the categories differently, in absence of a uniform method it is hard to compare from person to person.

[roo_ster]

Ragnar:

You omit at least one motivation.  Some of us might be opposed, in principle, to shooting up innocent folks' homes, killing their dogs, and placing everyone in the house in jeopardy.  You might want to give that a thought, as it doesn't seem very high on your list of "care-abouts."

As long as we're delving into motivations, sounds to me like even the idea of quantifying these cock-ups is abhorrent to you.   "It is just plain some people have an agenda..."  Yes, it seems you do.

$2000 to someone who is dirt-poor is still negligible relative to being killed in a botched raid...but if they are killed, no worries about paying for the new tranny!  $2K might cover material damages caused in a botched raid if no one is injured and the LEOs take great care not to do too much damage.

[Strings]

>I had no idea you had lost pets and had your wife traumatized by police.  I'm sorry that happened to you.<

Cute comeback. Have another, maybe for the mother of the child in Detroit who recently lost her child in one of these?

[drewtam]

When a business cons you, that is illegal and can be sued for redress. When the police storm your house on an anonymous tip and shoot your dog, or kid, there is NO redress, for any reason. The police are immune, your mechanic is not.

What we are talking about, are specific police powers given to perform militarized assaults and captures on non-violent suspects.

The map is not talking about capturing armed and dangerous criminals. The issue is NOT about capturing armed and aggressive criminal suspects. I am not talking about capturing suspects with histories or reasonable indications of armed resistance.
Do I need to repeat this point one more time?  

The use of SWAT-militarized tactics is a high risk maneuver that should only be reserved for extreme situations that obviously warrant it.

This extreme tactic is criticised for being overly used. It is criticized for being used as SOP on what is readily admitted to be non-violent suspects. It is criticized for being used so much, that execution has gotten sloppy and they are now regularly raiding the wrong house and making too many mistakes.

[taurusowner]

Just as an FYI, 3 or 4 people in a row citing one event (Weaver) in their posts doesn't really support your "it happens all the time" argument.  Get some new material?  If it's out there that is.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

he use of SWAT-militarized tactics is a high risk maneuver that should only be reserved for extreme situations that obviously warrant it.
  i'm old enough to remember before they had swat.  they did fewer raids but when they did it was a shoot anyone affair.  and they didn't care  no one did. a swat raid is generally less likely to go fubar than other methods.  and sadly the drug biz has ratcheted up the propensity for violence. victimless crime though it is

[Balog]

Just as an FYI, 3 or 4 people in a row citing one event (Weaver) in their posts doesn't really support your "it happens all the time" argument.  Get some new material?  If it's out there that is.

Well, there's this map... 

If the question is "are police raids being misused?", then the map is the wrong tool to search for an answer.  Cherry picking data and only looking at one aspect of the situation does not lead to sound conclusions.

I have no bone in the police raid abuse/misuse debate.  I just hope that people think it through before letting their opinions be swayed by data that is incomplete, incidental, and possibly meaningless (if taken on its own).  A graphic like that one, to me, seems likely to be misapplied.

Data showing detailed reports of police abuse of power is meaningless when discussing.... police abusing their power. Interesting conclusion. What was that RD was saying about people with pre-conceived notions?

[Jamisjockey]

Are you pointing out that conservative states like TX and FL are surprising to be in the top abusers?

I'm not.

Whether conservative or liberal... it's Authoritarian Statists that like to use no-knocks rather than proper police work.

Plenty of conservative Statists, just like liberal Statists.

War on drugs.  Conservative statists are desperately afraid you might flush a couple ounces of pot down the toilet, so the police are given the go ahead to charge in. 

[Dannyboy]

As long as we're delving into motivations, sounds to me like even the idea of quantifying these cock-ups is abhorrent to you.

Well, duh!  It's best to just let the police handle these matters.  They can conduct an internal investigation (because they've already proven they're competent).  That way they'll find out who the dyslexic jackass is that got the street/house number wrong and he can be dealt with in an appropriate manner (like maybe a promotion).  We citizens don't need to concern ourselves with things like that.

[Sergeant Bob]

I'm waiting for a discussion of how coffee cans are probable cause. 

[Tallpine]

accidents involving police.

Somehow I don't think these raids are accidents 

[makattak]

I'm waiting for a discussion of how coffee cans are probable cause. 

Hey, SWAT raids on non-violent (and sometimes innocent) people may be terrible, but if that's what it takes to break this country of its odious coffee addiction, I guess you gotta break a few eggs to make an omlet.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i am once again reminded as to why after 40 years norml has gotten done as lil as it has.

[roo_ster]

i am once again reminded as to why after 40 years norml has gotten done as lil as it has.

I attribute it to their being too stoned out of their minds to make a cogent argument.

Also, the (correct) perception that mj is the drug of choice for subversive and undesirable sub-cultures.

[Tuco]

I attribute it to their being too stoned out of their minds to make a cogent argument.

Also, the (correct) perception that mj is the drug of choice for subversive and undesirable sub-cultures.

And we must eliminate those undesireable subcultures   

[Balog]

I don't think rooster was arguing that as a good reason for maintaining mj as an illegal drug, merely pointing out the difficulties proponents of legalization face.

[roo_ster]

I don't think rooster was arguing that as a good reason for maintaining mj as an illegal drug, merely pointing out the difficulties proponents of legalization face.

We have a winner...


I'd legalize in a NY minute.  I will also still hold in contempt and disparage the sub-cultures in question, no matter mj's legal status.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i am amused that after 40 years they are still living in moms basement .  subsisting on the largess of a couple millionaire stoners. they can't even support their own organization.