Flare guns

[HankB]

Looks like it could use a  .450/.470/.475 NE insert . . . those old Brit rounds were fairly low pressure and with a bore comfortably less than 0.5", it shouldn't even need a DD license.

[AJ Dual]

Has anyone found chalk rounds for sale? 

No, you've got to roll your own.

You have to remember 26.5mm is a flare standard, not a grenade standard. Or like 37mm which is also a flare standard, but people have been using as a non-DD substitute for the 40mm.

And it's one that people didn't pay too much attention to until this load of RV85's went on sale last fall with Centerfire at $199, then people started thinking.. "Hmm... what can I do with THIS?" etc.

There'll be a learning curve as people figure out how far the RV85 can be pushed, and what it all can do. And a lead time for the folks who invent fun things for this small niche market to get products to buy, or projects designed for others to replicate at home.

[Fly320s]

But, I'm angry now!   

That's what I thought about the chalk loads. I'll play with the smoke rounds until someone figures out the chalk.

[AJ Dual]

But, I'm angry now!   

That's what I thought about the chalk loads. I'll play with the smoke rounds until someone figures out the chalk.

I think I could probably figure out a chalk load, but the main issue is that the 26.5mm does not have enough internal payload space to give a good marking or cloud signature just from impact dispersal alone.

Something like an inertial firing pin in the tail (chunk of nail in a tube? little pointed rod of tungsten would be better...), and a 209 shotshell primer, maybe even a small dollop of BP might be needed as a dispersal charge on impact. As long as that primer (arguably it's lead styphnate content alone) and dollop of BP are under 1/4oz, it's a signalling/marking munition and not an "offensive" DD one.

http://www.reloadableshells.com/37MM-AND-265MM-Projectiles-374455.htm

Taking one of these spin finned 26.5mm projectiles, capping the inside fuse hole with a primer, and some sort of strong glue, and putting a little dome of BP over it, and putting the firing pin in the fuse hole channel, and filling the rest of the capsule with carpenter's string line chalk in a bright color... that might work.

They're not cheap though. $4.25 each for the projos. 

[freakazoid]

How much pressure is needed to set off a primer?

[birdman]

AJ DON'T DO THAT
Sorry for all caps warning, but that would likely go off in the gun!
The problem with an inertia firing pin, or an of these strategies, is the setback the acceleration when the projectile is propelled in the barrel) will likely set it off!  Even a low pressure gun is 100's to 1000's of g's, more than enough to setback any sort of firing pin into a primer hard enough to set it off.

It's why even 40mm grenade have a safe/arm device that doesn't allow detonation until after the setback is done (the firing is what actually arms the grenade, it's why Rambo-3 wouldn't work)

[AJ Dual]

Sorry, on my phone so I'll edit and explain further later.

That seat of the pants design has the pin in the rear of the capsule, not the nose.  Other designs have fold out fins like an RPG, one fin having a hook holding the pin back until clear of the bore.

[birdman]

Sorry, on my phone so I'll edit and explain further later.

That seat of the pants design has the pin in the rear of the capsule, not the nose.  Other designs have fold out fins like an RPG, one fin having a hook holding the pin back until clear of the bore.

Ah, okay, that makes more sense...just be sure to account for any masses that could have significant setback forces.

[RevDisk]

I'm just pondering high velocity kinetic projectiles. Preferably rocket assisted. The 1/4th ounce rule is a tough limit for amusing rounds. If you can't add more boom, you have to add more mass or more velocity. Trick is to not breach the launcher housing in the process.

Accuracy is going to be an interesting aspect.

Basically, my thought (and I will do the legal research prior to building) is thus.  Propellant shouldn't count as payload.  So, add more propellant, preferably as a second stage upon exiting the launcher. Unfortunately, if you hit a target prior to propellant burnout, it may add to the destructiveness of the round. I'm just pondering whether it's legally kosher or not.

[RevDisk]

Found it:

(f) Destructive device

    The term ``destructive device'' means (1) any explosive, incendiary,
or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellent
charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or
incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F)
similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which
will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the
action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of
which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a
shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally
recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any
combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting
any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and
(2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The
term ``destructive device'' shall not include any device which is
neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device,
although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned
for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar
device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the
Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of
title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the
Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique
or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting
purposes.

(C) rocket having a propellent
charge of more than four ounces,
(D) missile having an explosive or
incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce

So the rocket assisted munitions would be kosher if payload was <= 1/4th oz and propellent was <= 4 ounces.

I am missing something, or is the TYPE of payload and propellent not specified?

[AJ Dual]

Ah, okay, that makes more sense...just be sure to account for any masses that could have significant setback forces.

It would be in these, the back-halves of the finned projectiles. It would be in the channel where the fuse runs. Reamed out a bit at the top for a 209 shotshell primer, and then some sort of firing pin in the fuse hole. With the back sealed up to keep it from falling out, or from the lift charge pushing the pin forward on firing either. Over the 209 shotshell primer would be a small dab of BP as a burst charge to spread the chalk.

Such a design wouldn't be all that "drop safe", but should be foolproof on actual firing unless the 209 somehow managed to work it's way down a channel smaller than it is to strike the pin. My main concerns would be more towards it NOT working, that the mass of whatever kind of pin you could fit in there wouldn't be sufficient, nor have enough travel distance to strike the primer hard enough on impact.

Found it:
(C) rocket having a propellent
charge of more than four ounces,
(D) missile having an explosive or
incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce

So the rocket assisted munitions would be kosher if payload was <= 1/4th oz and propellent was <= 4 ounces.

I am missing something, or is the TYPE of payload and propellent not specified?

Yeah, this is what I'm struggling with too. I've bounced similar questions around on Grog's board, but IMO, he tends to be a bit too conservative on his determinations of DD stuff. The responses I got were unclear, and kind of "count it all" propellant and explosive towards the DD total.   I didn't agree, but it's his house and I'm not going to make a stink there.

I'm not all that concerned with making "offensive" rocket boosted loads that require a DD'd launcher, because I figure if it really requires being shot at "in anger" it would either take a round that's individually DD'able, or there's lots of better things in my arsenal I ought be using. Or the launcher would be better used shooting OC or CS which aren't DD, and don't require a DD launcher either.

I'm interested in rocket boosted projectiles, because I want pyro that goes high enough that I don't have to worry about flares or stars touching the ground before they extinguish themselves. Or chalk rounds that shoot fast enough, and flat enough I can use them at my gun club and not have to be worried shooting under the sky-blocking baffles would put them in the dirt before they even went 100 yards.

[Harold Tuttle]

i would run estes D motors for launch motivation, although they are 4 bucks a pop these daze

[RevDisk]

AJ, i'll contact the R&D departments at LockMart, Pratt and Rocketdyne. Maybe JPL, but I'm not sure if any buddies are still there.  They might be able to assist in high velocity, low propellent design.

I wonder if Birdman and rooster could shake some trees as well.

[freakazoid]

So is it the force of the impact of the projectile hitting whatever your aiming at causing the firing pin to hit the primer? How much force is really needed to set off a primer? Could you just set the primer in the nose, and therefore not need a firing pin?

[AJ Dual]

i would run estes D motors for launch motivation, although they are 4 bucks a pop these daze

I think a C11-P (zero delay/plugged, no ejection charge) would probably do nicely. If you can even find such an animal... (These would do... http://www.amazon.com/Estes-C11-3-Model-Rocket-Engines/dp/B0006N727A You'd have to dig out the ejection charge, and plug it off with some hot glue or epoxy though. unless you're counting on the ejection charge to ignite some flare or smoke comp, or other pyrotechnics.)

Problem with a D engine is that at 1"/25mm nominal OD, it's too big/wide to fit the ID of most of the reusable casings which are significantly smaller than 25mm. You might be able to stuff one into a reloaded 26.5mm aluminum flare hull. Although I wouldn't expect much in the way of good results. Even with the C engines, you might be looking at razoring the side and pulling a few turns of paper off, and then relying on the projectile body to give you some additional support against the side pressures of the thrust, so you've got some wiggle room for including fins or some sort of drag stabilization in the casing. I'm thinking some pieces of flat mainspring cut into triangles, then folded flat against the projectile or engine casing itself. Although I'm leery about something metal like that riding against that pretty CZ's chromed bore. Maybe some kind of sleeve or sabot that falls off when it's clear.

[freakazoid]

Just got my second one in!
Just got my second one. Number is 0290, first one was 0871. Some things I noticed that were different from the first one. One is that the container for the cleaning kit is a real dark redish brown and a black button. While the other one is a real light brown with a shiny metal button. Also in the bag that the carrying case comes in there is a small piece of paper which I can't read, although it does have 1987 printed and stamped on it. Also everything came wrapped in paper while in the first one the screwdriver and what I am assuming is a shell extractor came wrapped in like wax paper. The cases are identical except the first one used bigger buttons. And the other thing I noticed is that in this one the paper is of a much more poor quality, and folded differently.

The launchers themselves have a few very subtle differences. On the sights the stuff used to cover the screw is white on the new one and red on the first one. One the tang that sticks out, the part that connects the front section to the back section, on top and to the left of the serial number it is an "L" on the first one and an "R" on the new one. And to the right of the serial number one the first one is a "C" while on the new on is what looks like an "R" inside of an octagon. And on the bottom side the first one said "ZBRO OVKA BRNO" while on the new one it said "ZBROJOVKA BRNO". And two other small things I noticed, on the butt pad where it is has BRNO stamped into it, on the new on it is stamped upside down. And it appears that the pin that holds the thing that is used to hold the barrel section closed, it looks like it was pushes in from the left side on the first one and from the right side on the new one.

 

[AJ Dual]

A question for all of you who've got two or more RV85's...

Who's going to have the guts and/or be crazy enough to weld two of these together in a SxS configuration? 

[Balog]

Showed mine to a buddy last night, now he wants one. :D

What's the cheapest place left to get these?

[Ben]

Showed mine to a buddy last night, now he wants one. :D

What's the cheapest place left to get these?

The AK forum link in the first post here shows that the guy who sold them for the group buy is now selling them at $300 on an individual basis. The relevant post is on page 7 or 8.