Bill Frist - Taliban Appeaser?

[CAnnoneer]

Shouldn't there be a "Gresham's Law" for discussion fora?

Nice try. I suppose you believe yourself to be the "good money"? Hehehe. Feel free to run for the "moral" hill, when you cannot take the field of logic.

[The Rabbi]

Shouldn't there be a "Gresham's Law" for discussion fora?

Nice try. I suppose you believe yourself to be the "good money"? Hehehe. Feel free to run for the "moral" hill, when you cannot take the field of logic.

No, you're right.  There is no arguing with your logic.  I'll give you that and won't even try.

[richyoung]

This is the best list you can come up with?  What does Troy have to do with Nagasaki?

Troy was wiped out by the people they were fighting.   Nagasaki was, for all i ntents and purposes, wiped out by the people they were fighting.  They are both successful examples of force being used.  Again, how much trouble has Troy given Greece in the last 2500 years?  How much trouble has Japan given the US in the last 60 years?

And do we really want to choose Spanish Conquistadors and other unsavory types as our role models?

If thats what it takes to defeat radically fundamentalist Islam, bring it on....

[The Rabbi]

This is the best list you can come up with?  What does Troy have to do with Nagasaki?

Troy was wiped out by the people they were fighting.   Nagasaki was, for all i ntents and purposes, wiped out by the people they were fighting.  They are both successful examples of force being used.  Again, how much trouble has Troy given Greece in the last 2500 years?  How much trouble has Japan given the US in the last 60 years?

Actually the city of Troy was rebuilt and was continuously occupied for thousands of years.  Nagasaki continues to be a major city in Japan.  Neither example has anything to do with guerilla warfare.

[richyoung]

Actually the city of Troy was rebuilt and was continuously occupied for thousands of years.

Not by TROJANS it wasn't - hence the archeological search for Troy - which would not have been necessary if it were occupied AS SUCH BY SUCH into historical times.

Nagasaki continues to be a major city in Japan.  Neither example has anything to do with guerilla warfare.

Not familiar with the Burma campaign, parts of the Phillipine Islands camapaign, parts of Gudalcanal, etc I see...

[The Rabbi]

Actually the city of Troy was rebuilt and was continuously occupied for thousands of years.

Not by TROJANS it wasn't - hence the archeological search for Troy - which would not have been necessary if it were occupied AS SUCH BY SUCH into historical times.

Nagasaki continues to be a major city in Japan.  Neither example has anything to do with guerilla warfare.

Not familiar with the Burma campaign, parts of the Phillipine Islands camapaign, parts of Gudalcanal, etc I see...

Yeah but you havent considered the counter examples of the Brooklyn Dodgers or Microsoft.  Until you come to terms with those you will never make your case.

[richyoung]

I must admit, Rabbi flees from the field of competing ideas with the most colorful prose - I must nominate him for the Brave Sir Robert award for gallant running away...

[The Rabbi]

I must admit, Rabbi flees from the field of competing ideas with the most colorful prose - I must nominate him for the Brave Sir Robert award for gallant running away...

I havent run away.  But you've failed to answer my objections to your arguments and act like I am the one shirking.
No, when will you come to grips with the Saatchi & Saatchi campaign and see your position is hopeless?

[richyoung]

I havent run away.

Keep telling yourself that, but I think you are an Army of One when it comes to that position...

But you've failed to answer my objections to your arguments and act like I am the one shirking.

You've been answered.  Your reply was a nonsequiter involving baseball and operating systems vendors.

No, when will you come to grips with the Saatchi & Saatchi campaign and see your position is hopeless?

Don't see what any of this has to do with brand name recognition.

[The Rabbi]

No, when will you come to grips with the Saatchi & Saatchi campaign and see your position is hopeless?

Don't see what any of this has to do with brand name recognition.

I dont see what any of your posts has to do with the topic, but it hasnt slowed you down any.  Using irrelevant examples to show a non-existent point and using equally irrelevant arguments against valid examples is no way to argue.
The Israelites failed to uproot the Canaanites, despite Divine assistance.  I have failed to uproot some weeds in my garden.  Would you suggest blowing up the ground?  No, of course not.

[Perd Hapley]

Rabbi, rich,

You're both pulling each other off a cliff, here.  Sort of a dual tailspin.  All rich was trying to do was point out some places where "overwhelming military force" has been successful in resolving a conflict.  Whether Troy was ever rebuilt isn't relevant.  Whether we should behave exactly like the Conquistadors in every particular is not at issue.  The question was whether Troy was defeated by overwhelming military force or not.  The same goes for all other examples.  

rich, quit getting balled up, and stick to the main point.

[richyoung]

No, when will you come to grips with the Saatchi & Saatchi campaign and see your position is hopeless?

Don't see what any of this has to do with brand name recognition.

I dont see what any of your posts has to do with the topic, but it hasnt slowed you down any.

You might not.  The rest of the readers are perhaps not so obtuse.

Using irrelevant examples to show a non-existent point and using equally irrelevant arguments against valid examples is no way to argue.

Ah, but what is and isn't "relevant".  How convenient to dismass all counter examples to an over-stated hypothesis as "irrelevant".  So lets GET RELEVANT.  How about them Carthaginians? "Carthage delanda est" - and it was!  No more stuff out of that bunch of child-murdering reprobates - EVER!  Stirred up any trouble lately?  Or them Incans?  How about the Aztecs?  Apaches?  Neanderthal Man?  The Dodo?  The Knights Templar?Overwhelming power sure seemed to work in Sodom and its neighborhood, yes?   I seem to recall God openeing a can of whup-ass on the Pharoh, on top of some plagues.  That seemed to work too.

The Israelites failed to uproot the Canaanites, despite Divine assistance.  I have failed to uproot some weeds in my garden.  Would you suggest blowing up the ground?  No, of course not.

IF Osama is hiding in your crab grass, I say "bombs away"...

[richyoung]

...heck, if he's hiding in MY crabgrass, "bombs away"....

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, rich,

You're both pulling each other off a cliff, here.  Sort of a dual tailspin.  All rich was trying to do was point out some places where "overwhelming military force" has been successful in resolving a conflict.  Whether Troy was ever rebuilt isn't relevant.  Whether we should behave exactly like the Conquistadors in every particular is not at issue.  The question was whether Troy was defeated by overwhelming military force or not.  The same goes for all other examples.  

rich, quit getting balled up, and stick to the main point.

Fistful, overwhelming military force tends to win battles, sometimes even wars.  That doesnt seem to be the issue.  The issue is whether we should adopt the tactics of history's worst criminals in this conflict or whether that might, just maybe, decrease our own moral stature and legitimacy.
One of my issues with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that Israeli public life has been so brutalized by it that some of the rhetoric on the Israeli side is really no different from what Hamas et al say on the Arab side.

[richyoung]

In the words of Randy Newman, "Everbody hates us anyhow...lets drop the big one now"

Seriously.

I'm tired of my country being "Johnny on the Spot" whenever some turd-world (usually Muslim) kleptocracy has an earthquacke or flood or tsunami or hurricane, to turn around and see these same folks, at the behest of their state-run, state-edited equivalent of the Drive-By Media, burning my flag in their streets and voting against us at the UN.  So be it.

The next country to have terrorists in it should be told, plain and simple:  You got 6 weeks to fix this on your own - we'll give you all the help we can.  If you can't handle it in 6 weeks, WE'RE gonna do it - and we won't be very gentle about it.  If you get in the way, well, you're either WITH us or AGAINST us - choose wisely!

Arabs don't respect negotiation, nor do they negotiate in good faith.  Israel has given them 98% of what the so-called "Palestinians" wanted - and gets rocketed in return.  There IS NO COMPROMISE with vermin that will slay innocents - only victory.  By their choice, it will be a brutal victory - but no more brutal on them than they would be on us, should we lack the will to win.  Western civillizationis in a fight TO THE DEATH with Wahabi and other fundamentalist Islam.  We better wake up and start fighting.

[Perd Hapley]

Rabbi, you're confusing one point (and therefore one argument) with another.  I've copied the genesis of this nonsense about Troy/Nagasaki/Conquistadors below.  There you can see what richyoung said and what he didn't say.  You were reading a lot into what he said.  For example, we can ethically copy the Conquistadors in some of their military strategy without doing everything else they did.  

Let's highlight one of the key quotes from the document:

The more force used, the less effective it is.

A more self-serving, patently false sentence I have never seen.  These places wring a few bells?


Carthage
Hiroshima/Nagasaki
Troy
Incans
Aztecs
Plains Indians
Gettysburg

...just off of the top of my head.  Force seemed to work pretty good on them.  Seen any Carthaginians lately? Trojans, (not the prophalactic kind)?

[richyoung]

For example, we can ethically copy the Conquistadors in some of their military strategy without doing everything else they did.

Exactly.  Compare and contrast how the Western Allies treated their sectors of conquered Germany, vs. the Soviet sectors, (ignoring, for the sake of argument, Eisenhower's deliberate starvation of POWS).  The Marshall Plan vs. Rape and Pillage - even though we were as ruthless in  conquest, we were much more benign as conquerors.  The rapid rebound of (West) German industry played no small role in helping win the Cold War.

[CAnnoneer]

Fistful, overwhelming military force tends to win battles, sometimes even wars.  That doesnt seem to be the issue.  The issue is whether we should adopt the tactics of history's worst criminals in this conflict or whether that might, just maybe, decrease our own moral stature and legitimacy.

You are changing your position in mid-argument but refuse to recognize the change. You and Lobotomy boy argued that "every example of the use of Draconian military force throughout history has ultimately failed".

[CAnnoneer]

I'm tired of my country being "Johnny on the Spot" whenever some turd-world (usually Muslim) kleptocracy has an earthquacke or flood or tsunami or hurricane, to turn around and see these same folks, at the behest of their state-run, state-edited equivalent of the Drive-By Media, burning my flag in their streets and voting against us at the UN.

That's what happens when we allow the liberals and globalists to present an image of the country as the Global Policeman/SocNanny. As a country, we should cut the crap and unversally and consistently promote OUR national interests, at the potential detriment of everybody and everything else. This country is being murdered every day by liberal media that do everything they can to exterminate the country's last bulwark - American nationalism. Why? Because things like nationalism and national interests are the DEVIL for multiculturalist globalist statist socialists that want World Government and World Welfare.

[richyoung]

Dang, you're good.  Ever been to Fort Sill?

[CAnnoneer]

Ever been to Fort Sill?

Not yet, but one day I will.

[richyoung]

If its for the OBC or CCC or any other deal that puts yoyu in the Sim Center, be sure to say "Hi"...

[Lobotomy Boy]

I must admit, Rabbi flees from the field of competing ideas with the most colorful prose - I must nominate him for the Brave Sir Robert award for gallant running away...

My take on it was that he, like me, came to the conclusion that at some point badgering someone who is clearly unhinged goes from being productive to just plain cruel, which is why I quit participating in this bizarre conversation, but something has been bothering me to the point where I need to ask CAnnoneer a question: what is your ultimate strategy? Your proposal to wage total war on Islamic culture is just a tactic. Think of strategy as the answer to the question: what do I ultimately hope to accomplish? What do I want the ultimate end point of my actions to be? Tactics are the methods you use to achieve your strategy.

Your tactics seem to be to wage total war against Islamic culture. What do you hope to accomplish by doing this? If your strategy is to make the world safer for Western Christian culture, this is a hell of a counterproductive strategy because your tactics will only serve to instigate the Islamic world to attace Western Christian culture. Unless, of course, you kill every last man, woman, and child in the Islamic world. I thought you understood this, which is why I call your tactics "genocide."

Perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps there is a method to your madness. Perhaps you do have a well-conceived strategy. If so, please share it with us?

[Perd Hapley]

your tactics will only serve to instigate the Islamic world to attace Western Christian culture. Unless, of course, you kill every last man, woman, and child in the Islamic world.[1] I thought you understood this, which is why I call your tactics "genocide."[2]

1.  The Islamic world IS attacking the West.  Not keeping up on current events, I see.  Any effective tactic will makes things worse before they get better.  

2.  A severe and slanderous jump to conclusions.  But I'm not buying that as your actual motivation.

[Perd Hapley]

Oh, I was going to ask in stunned disbelief - Is this thing still alive?