Author Topic: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal  (Read 31489 times)

Viking

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2013, 06:37:59 PM »
Gun licensing here in Sweden was only supposed to be registration to begin with - you bought (or had) a gun, you took the serial number (if the gun had one) and went to the local police station to register it. This in turn led to requiring licenses for each individual firearm, requiring you to demonstrate a need for each firearm, restricting the number and type of guns you can own for hunting or target shooting, and the list of approved "needs" shrinking over time, until it's virtually impossible to get a firearm simply for self defense, as an example.

The same have happened all over the world. The whole idea of someone else determining whether I need a firearm is a con to begin with - There is exactly one person on this planet who is capable of determining if I need a firearm or not, and that person is me. If I require a firearm, anything between a .22 Flobert revolver to a Mk19 grenade launcher and everything in between, I should be able to get one with as little fuss as possible, either from a gun store, private sale, being gifted one, making one entirely from scratch, etc, being restricted only by the money in my wallet or how much I can charge on my credit card. Gun prohibitionists, statists, hoplophobes and similar types are either deluded or evil, and I don't want either personality type responsible for making laws, rules and regulations, thankyouverymuch.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 07:14:02 PM »
I guess I don't see confiscation as a real threat. I don't think it will happen, certainly not in my lifetime but probably not my children's either. I don't think the registry is that big of a deal.

In terms of property rights, the difference between a gun and a dirt bike or a table saw is that only one of those things can take away the lives of 10 people from 100 yards in a matter of seconds. I don't think it is unreasonable to track and regulate dangerous items, just like we do with deadly chemicals and explosives.

What about software?  A whole heck of a lot of people can be killed by hacking the right software systems.  Hydroelectric dams, nuclear power stations, irrigation or flood control canals, traffic lights.  Maybe we should have background checks on Visual Studio, or the gcc open source compiler binaries.

What about hobbyists playing with arduino boards, compasses, inertial sensors, GPS units, automated flight of drones?

Soldering irons, cleaning chemicals and the fertilizer isle at Home Depot are all far more dangerous than a piddly little gun.  But I can sell all those things, along with any hobbyist drone I might build, with no background check.

I fear my government, and the misguided ignorance of the unwashed masses, laboring under the great mantle of "should"-ism... far more than I fear criminals with guns.  "Should" is an abhorrent word when used to indicate the desired direction of another person's labors rather than one's own.  It is an assault on the self-ownership of the other person. 

Everything about gun control is about what "other people should do."
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Doggy Daddy

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2013, 09:58:55 PM »
Gun licensing here in Sweden was only supposed to be registration to begin with - you bought (or had) a gun, you took the serial number (if the gun had one) and went to the local police station to register it. This in turn led to requiring licenses for each individual firearm, requiring you to demonstrate a need for each firearm, restricting the number and type of guns you can own for hunting or target shooting, and the list of approved "needs" shrinking over time, until it's virtually impossible to get a firearm simply for self defense, as an example.

The same have happened all over the world. The whole idea of someone else determining whether I need a firearm is a con to begin with - There is exactly one person on this planet who is capable of determining if I need a firearm or not, and that person is me. If I require a firearm, anything between a .22 Flobert revolver to a Mk19 grenade launcher and everything in between, I should be able to get one with as little fuss as possible, either from a gun store, private sale, being gifted one, making one entirely from scratch, etc, being restricted only by the money in my wallet or how much I can charge on my credit card. Gun prohibitionists, statists, hoplophobes and similar types are either deluded or evil, and I don't want either personality type responsible for making laws, rules and regulations, thankyouverymuch.

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Scout26

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2013, 10:07:46 PM »
The two largest mass murders in US history were done with:

1.  Box Cutters
2.  Diesel fuel and Fertilizer

I can buy all three without a background check or waiting period.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2013, 10:28:25 PM »
The two largest mass murders in US history were done with:

1.  Box Cutters
2.  Diesel fuel and Fertilizer

I can buy all three without a background check or waiting period.

Have you tried buying ammonium nitrate lately?
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Regolith

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2013, 10:45:51 PM »
Have you tried buying ammonium nitrate lately?

My dad bought a couple bags a few months ago. He didn't make any comments about being hassled; actually, I seem to recall that he was surprised that they didn't hassle him.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2013, 12:04:04 AM »
Let me be clear about this: background checks for private transfers is gun registration.

Not 'could lead to gun registration', it literally IS gun registration.

It does not matter if they put in a little sentence that says 'the government is not allowed to keep records' - that sentence will go away at the next mass-shooting - and then the government will simply start hitting the SAVE button after it processes your next gun purchase. We're in the world of computers now. Keeping terabytes of data only costs a few dollars.

If Tom Coburn argues that putting a little proviso in there to say 'you are not allowed to keep records' makes it anything other but gun registration, that only helps us know who Tom Coburn is.

What this will decide is nothing less but the answer to the question - is America a unique nation, that trusts its citizens to own weapons - not 'hunting implements', not 'sporting firearms', but weapons - or it is just another country, and jut like everywhere else, the gun control movement wins battle after battle, and the gun rights organizations are only fighting a delaying action.

Because if this passes, it will never be repealed. The NRA is not capable of, and does not have the stomach for - attacking existing Federal gun laws. They will promise to work to repeal it. They will lie, just like they lied about the Hughes amendment, where they made some symbolic move to try and strike it down and then surrendered too. But they will not repeal it if it passes.

If they win this fight, then the gun rights movement in America is over, and everything else is a long delaying action.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2013, 12:29:40 AM »
To me, even bigger than the de-facto registration that mandatory background checks for all sales would create, is that the government can simply stop providing said background checks, and completely stop anyone from acquiring new arms, especially those as of yet who have none and want/need them. With the 4473 system, and most firearms that do change hands privately doing so through family in inheritance and sales to friends or trusted people, (or so I guess) we already have de-facto national registration. Only that it's slow, inefficient, and unwieldy. (from the viewpoint of the .gov)

And as to everything Viking has to go through in Sweeden, Norway's system is quite similar at least as compared to the U.S., and Anders Breivik changed his entire life and career with an eye towards committing his massacre. He gave up on his career of programming/technology and investing, to incorporate as a sole proprietor of a farming company so he'd have better cause to be allowed to own firearms for hunting/pest control, and access to the fertilizer for making ANFO bombs. According to his own admissions, he had a nine year plan to

No laws are going to stop someone like that.  And even if gun prohibition is ever implemented that actually worked to reduce the number of firearms in general circulation (it won't), it wouldn't stop someone like that either.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 12:45:34 AM »
Quote
nd most firearms that do change hands privately doing so through family in inheritance and sales to friends or trusted people

most but not all.

A big enough 'not all' that you cannot be certain where the guns are.
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Balog

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2013, 03:27:19 PM »
A lot of good points, I think Viking said it best though.
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ArfinGreebly

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 04:28:36 PM »

I'm just wondering what the opposition to background checks is. I will first freely confess that I do not yet own a firearm, but when I go to buy one I (personally) would not be opposed to having a background check run on me.

Why so much opposition? If I understand them correctly, you will still be able to purchase whatever you can already legally purchase, but you would have to wait for some period of time first. What am I missing?


I have to resist the temptation to write a massive rant.

Among my charters, along with being an electronics technician and a software engineer, is the title "business data analyst."

One of the things you have to do when analyzing a business -- especially in troubleshooting -- is ask the question, "when was this last working well, and what were we doing when it worked well?"

I grew up in the fifties & sixties.  Until 1968, anyone could buy a gun, anyone could sell a gun as part of any retail outfit.  Sears and Montgomery Ward sold guns.  Hardware stores and gas stations sold guns.  General stores and other random establishments sold guns.  You could mail order guns, and they would be delivered to your door.

We didn't have school shootings and random massacres.

Whatever it was that we were doing in the fifties and sixties was working.

And then in 1968 all that changed.  Retailers who wanted to sell guns had to have a federal license to do so.  And then some bright spark came up with the concept of "prohibited persons" to save us all from criminals having guns.  Of course, even the most modest contemplation of that "solution" reveals that it can't work.  Criminals don't obey the law, so laws restricting criminals are only complied with at the criminal's convenience.

However now a once-commonplace product was now bottle-necked into scarcity, and new barriers to acquisition put in place, and these barriers hindered only the law-abiding.

So now it's harder and more expensive to get a gun, and the agency entrusted with the regulation and enforcement of "saving us from bad guys having guns" imposes arbitrary new rules from time to time which -- you guessed it -- only hinder the honest and law-abiding.

And the bad guys still have all the guns they want.  And violence has not abated.  And people are still murdered with guns -- especially in places where guns have been heavily restricted and any kind of carry has been outlawed.

We now have more than 20,000 gun laws on the books, and not one of them saves lives, excepting perhaps the ones declaring that citizens shall be allowed to carry and that citizens shall not be required to retreat from violent attacks.

The AWB of 1994 saved no lives.  None.  Columbine occurred in the middle of that ban.

So we've gone from a culture where anyone and everyone was free to own and carry a gun to a "new, improved" culture where "only the right people" get to buy and sell guns.  And in so doing we've gone from a culture where people kept themselves safe and mass shootings were rare to the point of statistical insignificance to a "new, improved" culture where we have running shootouts between rival gangs, home invasions in places where guns are "outlawed," and mass shootings in schools, malls, and theaters.

As a business analyst, my first impulse is to look at this and order the legislation, regulation, and random policy to be rolled back, federal licensing of retailers abolished, and the whole concept of "prohibited persons" purged from the system.

The ever-increasing layers of rules have not improved safety and have rendered thousands of victims defenseless.

The concept of "background checks" only has validity in the context of "prohibited persons," and that itself is a concept that only has validity if you buy into the idea that someone who is considered safe enough to walk among the general population is somehow "not safe" to own a gun.  If you trust a man enough to release him, then do it and be done with it.

This fiction of "prohibited persons," who are "dangerous" but nonetheless allowed to roam free, provides a convenient foil against which to force the honest and innocent to continually prove their innocence.

In other words, if you want to buy a gun -- constitutionally enshrined right -- unless you submit to a "background check" you are presumed to be guilty of something, and therefore prohibited from buying that gun.


In one of my other personae, part of my software engineering background includes data warehouse management, and relationship analysis of various entities (customers, employees, etc.).

I have more than a little grasp of what is possible with databases.

I will promise you this:  you do not want a database detailing where all the guns are and who owns them to EVER fall into the hands of government.

A brief study of the fates of the various disarmed populations in the last century will be enough to make the point.

Whenever a government proposes to keep close track -- detailed records -- of the activities of its people, such records serve to benefit the needs of government -- the political class -- vastly more than the needs of the people.


Summary:  
1) Things worked better when guns were unregulated, and increased regulation has improved nothing.  
2) Detailed records in the hands of government serve only government, not the people.

Conclusion:  A gun registry is a) unnecessary, and b) a bad idea.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 04:33:20 PM by ArfinGreebly »
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SADShooter

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2013, 05:27:17 PM »
So, Arfin, I can assume that was merely a mini-rant? =D
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roo_ster

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 05:46:55 PM »
So, Arfin, I can assume that was merely a mini-rant? =D

He was just clearing his throat.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 05:52:12 PM »
is "Curious" still here, or did all the ranting scare him (her?) away?
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CuriousAbootGuns

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 06:05:24 PM »
California confiscation of SKS rifles:

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/xcibviewitem.asp?id=195

New York City did something similar, and conducted raids.

I still can't find anything about New York doing this. Either way, it is wrongheaded at least. Confiscating one type  of gun because of its looks is very misguided. In terms of the California confiscation, they seem to have only done so to individuals who were convicted criminals.

Is it the general position that NO ONE, not even convicted violent criminals, the criminally insane and so forth should be restricted?

Curious, Are by any chance from Canada, eh?  ("aboot")   :laugh:  No offense intended.

Not Canadian but that is the joke, nice job picking it out.

What about software?  A whole heck of a lot of people can be killed by hacking the right software systems.  Hydroelectric dams, nuclear power stations, irrigation or flood control canals, traffic lights.  Maybe we should have background checks on Visual Studio, or the gcc open source compiler binaries.


I shortened your post because this is getting long. I was not asking aboot what should or shouldn't be banned, I originally asked aboot registration. In terms of the things you listed, they ARE regulated. We DO take extra precautions to limit and monitor access to the control of dams, power grids and so forth. We don't do it because it will eliminate 100% of the potential disasters, we do it to reduce the risk, ie the number of likely disasters, that's all we CAN do.

That feeds back to my original question about background checks. If someone with a history of violent crime or mental illness couldn't LEGALLY buy a firearm because they couldn't pass the mandatory background check, wouldn't that be a good thing? You would still pass yours, and it may limit the #of dangerous people, not law abiding citizens, from having weapons?

The obvious retort is "criminals won't subject themselves to the checks, they will steal the guns or buy them illegally" Of course this might be true, might be only because these are the brightest and most stable people we are talking about here, but is the difficulty of stealing or purchasing a firearm illegally easier or harder than going through legal channels? I would think it's much harder. Again, background checks won't eliminate ALL crazies from obtaining firearms but it will almost certainly make it more difficult.

Sorry that's so long. I do want to stick to background checks. (and for those who haven't read the whole thread, I DO NOT support confiscation, or idiotic legislation that bans/restricts guns bases on their looks or capacity)

CuriousAbootGuns

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 06:07:39 PM »
BTW, I expect rants. This is an important topic with a lot of nuances. I will confess that I typically tune out and stop reading them halfway through the the briefer the better. That's why I TRY to break up questions and responses in chunks.

Also, I appreciate all the feedback.

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2013, 06:17:05 PM »

Shortened rant:

Prior to 1968 we didn't have a problem.

In 1968 we passed the GCA, created the federal licensing of firearms dealers.

Over the intervening years we added lots and lots of gun laws.  Thousands of them.

Today we have problems involving firearms -- problems which simply didn't exist prior to 1968.

Whatever we did starting in 1968 didn't work, and isn't working.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

ArfinGreebly

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2013, 06:21:04 PM »
Quote

The obvious retort is "criminals won't subject themselves to the checks, they will steal the guns or buy them illegally" Of course this might be true, might be only because these are the brightest and most stable people we are talking about here, but is the difficulty of stealing or purchasing a firearm illegally easier or harder than going through legal channels? I would think it's much harder. Again, background checks won't eliminate ALL crazies from obtaining firearms but it will almost certainly make it more difficult.



Actually, as confirmed by surveys of the actual criminals involved (interviewed in prisons), it's not harder.

They have their own marketplace.  We think of it as the "black market," but for them it's just alternative channels.

It's Prohibition 2.0, and it isn't working any better than Prohibition 1.0 did.
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2013, 06:26:04 PM »
Arfin hit the nail on the head.

Prohibition.

The War on Alcohol.  The War on Drugs.  The War on Guns.  The War on Poverty.  The War on Terrorism.


The only thing that happens when government declares war on something is:

1. That thing becomes very profitable
2. The rest of the population that doesn't really give a damn one way or another gets shafted by an ever increasing series of hoops to jump through in order to go about their lives.

Prohibition never works, unless by "working" we mean that it increases vested authority in a government body purely for the sake of bloating that authority.
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cordex

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2013, 06:45:11 PM »
Whatever we did starting in 1968 didn't work, and isn't working.
So we should do it again.  Harder.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2013, 06:56:08 PM »
[ar15]
So we should do it again.  Harder.

Kill it.  With fire.
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SADShooter

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2013, 06:56:45 PM »
Arfin hit the nail on the head.

Prohibition.

The War on Alcohol.  The War on Drugs.  The War on Guns.  The War on Poverty.  The War on Terrorism.


The only thing that happens when government declares war on something is:

1. That thing becomes very profitable
2. The rest of the population that doesn't really give a damn one way or another gets shafted by an ever increasing series of hoops to jump through in order to go about their lives.

Prohibition never works, unless by "working" we mean that it increases vested authority in a government body purely for the sake of bloating that authority.

You are correctly addressing manifestations, but not the root cause. Prohibition is a means to an end implemented from a philosophical premise, one person/group's desire to "improve" others through behavior modification.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2013, 07:00:48 PM »
That is not even nearly true.

If you lived during prohibition, and were not immensely wealthy and/or well-connected, your supply of quality whiskey would be replaced by poisonous moonshine at thrice the price.

In Israel, a rifle costs $2500-$3500 on the black markets, and the only rifle you can get - if you are not some really connected mafioso - is the rifles used by the military and the neighboring armies. And you can never shoot that rifle anywhere or you'll get instantly arrested, of course.

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CuriousAbootGuns

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2013, 07:37:02 PM »
Shortened rant:

Prior to 1968 we didn't have a problem.

In 1968 we passed the GCA, created the federal licensing of firearms dealers.

Over the intervening years we added lots and lots of gun laws.  Thousands of them.

Today we have problems involving firearms -- problems which simply didn't exist prior to 1968.

Whatever we did starting in 1968 didn't work, and isn't working.

Are you suggesting that the GCA is the CAUSE of the increase in gun violence? Seems to me to be a correlation at best but not a cause by any stretch. A lot of things have changed since then, a lot of things have stayed the same. Did gun violence spike in 1968? I think you'd be hard pressed to make a convincing case that the GCA is THE cause. It may or may not have contributed.

Here are a couple of timelines showing violent crime (not gun violence) as a function of time. This one shows the increase beginning around 1963, prior to the GCA.

http://www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/dcrime.htm

So, am I understanding your position correctly or have I misread it?

dogmush

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Re: Universal Background Checks: Senate supposedly near a deal
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2013, 07:54:23 PM »
One quible with Arfin's post.

Mass shootings are STILL statistically insignificant in frequency.  We just have idiots that want to make public policy on super rare events.