Star Trek fans bash new movie as "watchable/entertaining"

[LadySmith]

The Original: I liked the ship, phasers, Spock, Uhura, whichever Ensign Liebowitz died that episode and tribbles.
TNG: I liked the ship, Picard, Worf, Q, The Borg, Tinman, that old guy who wiped out an entire species for killing his wife and Troi's mom.
DS9: I liked the Defiant, Sisko and crossover characters from TNG.
That's where I left off with the TV shows.

As for movies, nothing has beaten The Wrath Of Khan so far.

[MicroBalrog]

The whole damn series was far too pacifistic "yay socialism" for me. The original is fun because of the atrocious acting and crappy fx. I'd still like to see a Warhammer 40k series (on HBO ofc, no one else would be able to show the necessary sex n' violence).

It'd have to be a film. TV is always made far too mild.

Perhaps a Gaunt's Ghosts film?

[MechAg94]

I forgot about the marines on Enterprise.  Maco's or something like that.  They didn't really have armor though. 

I agree on Wrath of Khan.  It is likely the best movie.  Others were at least entertaining.

I'll go see the movie when I can.

[makattak]

I forgot about the marines on Enterprise.  Maco's or something like that.  They didn't really have armor though. 

I agree on Wrath of Khan.  It is likely the best movie.  Others were at least entertaining.

I'll go see the movie when I can.

Ahhh... The Wrath of Khan.

[Balog]

It'd have to be a film. TV is always made far too mild.

Perhaps a Gaunt's Ghosts film?

Have you seen some of the things hbo does? I think it'd turn out ok.

[Kwelz]

It'd have to be a film. TV is always made far too mild.

Perhaps a Gaunt's Ghosts film?

A Guants Ghost film could be summed up in one scene. 

******
(Insert random unstoppable enemy of the emperor here) is stalking his prey to make his 5000th kill.

We see a look of total shock on above enemy as 6 inches of strait silver are run through his neck from behind by Mkoll who he never, saw, heard or sensed even though he is a 10K year old enhanced super soldier with the ability to kill 10 men without breaking a sweat.

Their commander then dies from Larkin's sniper shot from around a mile away.

The Rest of the Ghost appear from nowhere, klll everyone in site, then disappear just as fast.

The end!

************

[buzz_knox]

The original series had the characters be the focus of events, with the situation (including technology) being secondary.

TNG and Voyager made the situation (all too often a technological glitch since they apparently beta tested everything after deploying it) the key.  This was too bad as there were some high quality actors not being used effectively.  The writers also tended to have amnesia about prior events and compensated with technobabble.

DS9 focused on characters with less technobabble.  There were far more story arcs and they tended to be successful.

Enterprise focused on "this is the past, isn't it cool to have a prequel?" and missed opportunites to explore how tech evolved (rather than being the same items in slightly bulkier form) and the characters themselves.  The Temporal Cold War bit was not the best idea.  Over the series, character development improved greatly.  If Season 4 had the been the standard for the series, Enterprise would have been hailed as one of the best of the Trek programs.

I forgot to add that the movies tended to be more character oriented, but the writers just couldn't always pull it off.  They also lost focus of what should/shouldn't be done.  Star Trek V never should have aired, and Generations, Insurrection and Nemesis should not have aired in the form they did.

[MechAg94]

I agree on the temporal cold war stuff.  It seemed a bit silly.  I liked the Enterprise series in general though.

[CNYCacher]

IIRC, The enterprise in "The Next Generation" had the ability to split the "Saucer Section" which presumably held most of the crew and civilians from the rest of the ship, which had all the main propulsion, weapons, and even a trimmed-down "Battle Bridge".  They made reference to the fact that without the saucer section in place, the enterprise was a formidable battleship.  I believe they actually did this in the first episode of season one and never again.

[makattak]

IIRC, The enterprise in "The Next Generation" had the ability to split the "Saucer Section" which presumably held most of the crew and civilians from the rest of the ship, which had all the main propulsion, weapons, and even a trimmed-down "Battle Bridge".  They made reference to the fact that without the saucer section in place, the enterprise was a formidable battleship.  I believe they actually did this in the first episode of season one and never again.

No, they did it against the Borg as well.

Incidentally, I think it is the Borg that makes me like STTNG. An enemy that epitomizes socialism. "Resistance is Futile".

[MicroBalrog]

The Rest of the Ghost appear from nowhere, klll everyone in site, then disappear just as fast.

Don't forget these are the guys who lose 300 men to a gush of water, and at least two men to homicidal cacti. They're tough, but they're nowhere as CRAZY UNSTOPPABLE FORCE as Space MArines.

And I love Larkin. Especially for being completely out of his mind.

[Balog]

No, they did it against the Borg as well.

Incidentally, I think it is the Borg that makes me like STTNG. An enemy that epitomizes socialism. "Resistance is Futile".

Considering that the force fighting them is just as socialist.....

[makattak]

Considering that the force fighting them is just as socialist.....

No, they are not.

I find the economics of Star Trek (especially TNG) interesting.

The problem is in their society that scarcity for most goods has disappeared. The "replicator" effectively makes free stuff.

As such, the only scarcity left in their society is time. This now leads to the question: if we have machines that make stuff for free, how do we convince someone to work on the machines when we can't pay him more for his time than for anyone else's time because we have a machine that MAKES STUFF FOR FREE.

I then wonder about star travel and how anyone can afford star travel when they can't create good to be purchased by others when they have machines that make stuff for free.

This of course means they live in an entirely service oriented world. How does that function? You will note on the star ships that most individuals jobs are "study" and only a few actual work on the ship.

Effectively, the STTNG society is now simply made up of independently wealthy individuals only doing things they are interested in. Perhaps this will look like socialism because no one really cares about anything cause it's easily replaced.

Of course, that leads to the question: why does anyone to the menial jobs? It's interesting.

[CNYCacher]

I presume that ancient civilizations would look at us in much the same way.

[MicroBalrog]

Where are the little red sports starships?

[makattak]

I presume that ancient civilizations would look at us in much the same way.

Perhaps. We might look socialist to them:

Ancients: So what is it you make?

Modern (IT guy): Well, umm... I don't actually make anything. I provide a service for people who use a tool.

Ancient: So, they make things with their tools?

Modern: Kind of. They make things on the tool that other people can then use the tool for.

Ancient: So they make tools?

Modern: No, they do things with the tool that let other people make something with the tool. Some of the people make things with the tool that let other people play games with the tool.

Ancient: So basically, you get to have food and shelter for not producing anything, not being directly involved with making anything, and not serving any specific person. What man pays you for this?

Modern: Well, it's not ONE man. I work for a corporation, so in reality its millions of people that pay me for this.

and on and on....

[Balog]

Perhaps. We might look socialist to them:

Ancients: So what is it you make?

Modern (IT guy): Well, umm... I don't actually make anything. I provide a service for people who use a tool.

Ancient: So, they make things with their tools?

Modern: Kind of. They make things on the tool that other people can then use the tool for.

Ancient: So they make tools?

Modern: No, they do things with the tool that let other people make something with the tool. Some of the people make things with the tool that let other people play games with the tool.

Ancient: So basically, you get to have food and shelter for not producing anything, not being directly involved with making anything, and not serving any specific person. What man pays you for this?

Modern: Well, it's not ONE man. I work for a corporation, so in reality its millions of people that pay me for this.

and on and on....

Huh? What does corporations and non-physical work have to do with collectivist globalist (inter-galactic actually) .gov control?

[makattak]

Huh? What does corporations and non-physical work have to do with collectivist globalist (inter-galactic actually) .gov control?

I don't see collectivist control.

I see collectivist control in Starfleet, which I also see in the U.S. military. The central command structure runs the fleet of ships that defend the Federation.

The Federation Council seems to be more of a U.N. to me- I recall countless worlds that ran their own affairs outside any central command structure.

Even on earth, I saw people runinng their own vineyards, restuarants, etc...

Yes, there is socialism, but I've always assumed it's the socialism within the military, not a totally command and control economy.

As we are talking about a fictional show, anyway, it's all up to interpretation. So I can't refute what you have said, only say that my impression is different.

[Balog]

In all fairness I've not watched the show much so you could be right. But as you said: it's like the UN was running a one world .gov. Distasteful.

[buzz_knox]

Yes, there is socialism, but I've always assumed it's the socialism within the military, not a totally command and control economy.

More than a few episodes of TNG made clear that outmoded concepts like personal wealth and money had been eliminated, along with the problems of hunger, intolerance, etc.  Businesses operating within the Federation, as opposed to on the outskirts or strictly within a system, were rarely seen and were often associated with something disreputable or suspect (such as "information traders" or outright smugglers).  That was a major break from TOS, where commerce was frequently seen.

[buzz_knox]

Where are the little red sports starships?

After TOS, where are the private starships period?  In the original series, you frequently see independent vessels.  Most every starship in the Federation after TOS is either a Starfleet vessel, a Starfleet vessel on loan to an entity (i.e. the Raven) or a ship belonging to someone suspected of being up to no good.

[makattak]

More than a few episodes of TNG made clear that outmoded concepts like personal wealth and money had been eliminated, along with the problems of hunger, intolerance, etc.  Businesses operating within the Federation, as opposed to on the outskirts or strictly within a system, were rarely seen and were often associated with something disreputable or suspect (such as "information traders" or outright smugglers).  That was a major break from TOS, where commerce was frequently seen.

I remember clearly them saying wealth and "money" been outmoded. My interest was whether a lack of scarcity had caused people to no longer need money (my point of how do you pay a guy to fix the machine that makes free stuff.)

As for the businesses, I remember some disdain, but I also recall Picard walking though his brother's vineyard or Sisko sitting in his father's restuarant. It's a curiosity: did they outlaw business or has everyone become independently wealthy so people who "work" for more money are looked down upon?

(Yes, I'm such a nerd, I've considered the economics of Star Trek)

[Strings]

IIRC, ALL the Enterprises (with the possible exception of the first one, in Enterprise) have the capability of separating the saucer section from the rest. My brother had given me a set of "blueprints" from TOS, and it showed a battle bridge in the "neck"...

[Firethorn]

Of course, that leads to the question: why does anyone to the menial jobs? It's interesting.

Assuming that there's still an economy, and you're talking about something that involves nastiness, but still needs to be done, by paying them more for their work than you pay the people engaging in mind candy type activities.

We see some of this already - You can get more pay working as a cook in a McDonalds than what some file clerks get.  Plumbers and electricians making more than people with 4 year degrees.

Strings - If I remember right, the 'battle bridge' you were looking at isn't actually such, but an auxillery control point.  There was some talk of being able to seperate, but that's more of a way to save some crew if something nasty enough happens to the engineering section.  Such as a warp core breach.  Also, while able to seperate, it's more of an explosive bolts & cable cutting than a undocking.  IE putting the ship back together is going to require a stardock and quite some time, or a lot more time without a dock and using only the crew's own efforts.  Federation crews have shown to be quite capable of ship modification/repair without the assistance of a dock, after all.   Even if it IS just 'fix the ship enough so we can limp TO the dock to fix things right'.

[makattak]

Assuming that there's still an economy, and you're talking about something that involves nastiness, but still needs to be done, by paying them more for their work than you pay the people engaging in mind candy type activities.

We see some of this already - You can get more pay working as a cook in a McDonalds than what some file clerks get.  Plumbers and electricians making more than people with 4 year degrees.

That was my whole point: they have an economy that makes stuff for free.

How can you get people to sacrifice time doing something unpleasant when stuff is free?

Add to it the fact that if someone doesn't do it, the stuff isn't free. Once it's done it is free... so their work benefits everyone exactly as much as it benefits themselves (public good). So how would they induce someone to do it?

It's a quandry.