Author Topic: Air raid!  (Read 52183 times)

roo_ster

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #125 on: January 04, 2009, 02:50:50 PM »
This entire discussion is premised on the belief that Palestinians have no rights.  If you accept that Palestinians presumptively have the same rights as everyone else in the world, there is absolutely no justifying what is going on. 

I call bravo sierra.

For an easy counter-example, take a gander at the majority-Palestinian country to Israel's east: Jordan.

Any air raids by the Israelis over Amman, blasting Jordanian government buildings?  Why not, if they are Palestinians with no rights?  Might it be because Abdulla is not a fool who allows Palis to launch rockets from his territory?

IOW, it is the actions of the Palis in Gaza which has brought about air raids & other unpleasantness, not their identity.

The Palis in Gaza have had an Israeli-free zone for some time now.  All the Jewish settlers were removed and the Palis did in days/week what it takes African countries years to do: destroy the infrastructure left behind by the more advanced culture.

The Palis got the gov't they deserve in Hamas and are reaping crop of destruction they have so lovingly nurtured.

The Israelis have talked, imposed sanctions, etc., but those launching the rockets have not responded to civilized overtures.

But folks in America and Israel don't believe that, and so when agricola points out that killing people for "looking suspicious" is crazy, that's just rejected out of hand. 

It is also recommended to not break out the airsoft guns on your front lawn when your neighborhood has been locked down and the SWATties are raiding your chomo meth-dealer neighbor's house.


And at the same time as the Palestinians are not recognized to have any rights, we're all demanding that they refrain from any violence and just play nice.

I predict two long term consequences of this war:

1.  Upwards of 1000 Palestinians dead.

2.  Israel/US friendly government in Egypt will collapse.  Maybe in Jordan too.


1. I hope there are enough Pali casualties to, in a paraphrase of one of my all-time favorite generals*, "Make them howl."

2. I doubt it, on both counts.  Much of the anti-Jew hostility has required a steady drumbeat by the gov't to keep it at a fever pitch.  In the absence, most will just go about their business.

Also, the "Arab street" is not worth paying any attention.  They are not much of a factor in what actually happens in the ME.










* William Tecumseh Sherman quotes relevant to the current fracas:



I can make this march, and I will make Georgia howl!

You cannot qualify war in harsher terms than I will. War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.

You have heretofore read public sentiment in your newspapers, that live by falsehood and excitement; and the quicker you seek for truth in other quarters, the better.

My aim then was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

If they want eternal war, well and good; we accept the issue, and will dispossess them and put our friends in their place. I know thousands and millions of good people who at simple notice would come to North Alabama and accept the elegant houses and plantations there. If the people of Huntsville think different, let them persist in war three years longer, and then they will not be consulted. Three years ago by a little reflection and patience they could have had a hundred years of peace and prosperity, but they preferred war; very well.

Next year their lands will be taken, for in war we can take them, and rightfully, too, and in another year they may beg in vain for their lives. A people who will persevere in war beyond a certain limit ought to know the consequences. Many, many peoples with less pertinacity have been wiped out of national existence.

You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it… Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth—right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #126 on: January 04, 2009, 03:04:37 PM »
They need to stop firing rockets into Israel. They need to STOP FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL.

They made Gaza into one big missile base to deliberately lob rockets into civilian areas. The ended the ceasefire and started firing rockets. So no, they have no rights. Not until they stop acting like criminals.

Thats nonsense - 1.5 million people do not become fair game simply because a very small number of them have a habit of firing off unguided rockets into Israel.  

Quote from: shootingstudent
2.  Israel/US friendly government in Egypt will collapse.  Maybe in Jordan too

This is the big danger.  The whole Palestinian issue since 2006 has been a disaster for the West, potentially even more than Iraq has been when it comes to long-term issues.    
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lupinus

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #127 on: January 04, 2009, 03:14:05 PM »
Quote
Thats nonsense - 1.5 million people do not become fair game simply because a very small number of them have a habit of firing off unguided rockets into Israel. 
A, you can make the argument a lot easier when it's their government doing it.  B, they are not fair game.  I have yet to see where the Israeli soldiers are acting on a "if it moves, shoot it" ROE.
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #128 on: January 04, 2009, 03:15:27 PM »
A, you can make the argument a lot easier when it's their government doing it.  B, they are not fair game.  I have yet to see where the Israeli soldiers are acting on a "if it moves, shoot it" ROE.

a) Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinian Territories (not just the Gaza Strip);
b) that was a response to Manedwolfs quote.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #129 on: January 04, 2009, 03:20:40 PM »
Quote
1. I hope there are enough Pali casualties to, in a paraphrase of one of my all-time favorite generals*, "Make them howl."

Happily, the IDF doesn't agree with that.

The Army has made a conscious effort to minimize civilian casualties. They distribute leaflets to warn civilians to get out of danger zones, and they have ROEs designed to minimize said casualties.

Hamas no doubt needs shooting, but that doesn't apply to the other Palestinians.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #130 on: January 04, 2009, 03:56:07 PM »
The Palis in Gaza have had an Israeli-free zone for some time now.  All the Jewish settlers were removed and the Palis did in days/week what it takes African countries years to do: destroy the infrastructure left behind by the more advanced culture.

Yep. When the Israelis pulled out, they left all those greenhouses intact. What did the Palis do? Use the greenhouses to grow food? Maybe even flowers for export? No, they smashed them in savage glee.

Did they build resorts and cafes on their Mediterranean beaches? No, they built rockets.

They've done it to themselves. Jordan is an example of the exact opposite. They are at peace with Israel, they are an advanced country now with culture and tourism and industry, and a military we're friends with, supplied with the latest weapons.

The Palestinians' dysfunctional flailing rage is not the fault of the Israelis.

MicroBalrog

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #131 on: January 04, 2009, 04:09:38 PM »
Quote
All the Jewish settlers were removed and the Palis did in days/week what it takes African countries years to do: destroy the infrastructure left behind by the more advanced culture.

Eh. I remember reading articles about how the government ostensibly bulldozed the settlements on the way out. Are you sure about this?

[note I'm not arguing, I am just unsure]
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #132 on: January 04, 2009, 04:12:35 PM »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

roo_ster

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #133 on: January 04, 2009, 06:04:14 PM »
a) Hamas is the elected government of the Palestinian Territories (not just the Gaza Strip);
b) that was a response to Manedwolfs quote.

Like I wrote, the Palis are reaping what they have sown.  They elect an unrepentant, unreconstructed terrorist organization with full knowledge of what they are doing.  There can be no dissembling about how some dictator they secretly opposed made them do this & such. 

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
----H. L. Mencken

After 6000+ rockets launched into Israel with the hope of killing civvies, they ought to get it "good and hard."
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roo_ster

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agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #134 on: January 04, 2009, 07:01:14 PM »
Like I wrote, the Palis are reaping what they have sown.  They elect an unrepentant, unreconstructed terrorist organization with full knowledge of what they are doing.  There can be no dissembling about how some dictator they secretly opposed made them do this & such. 

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
----H. L. Mencken

After 6000+ rockets launched into Israel with the hope of killing civvies, they ought to get it "good and hard."

There is a good article on the Times website about exactly why you are wrong, and the whole sad history of Western involvement in the issue since Hamas got elected in 2006:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ece

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roo_ster

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #135 on: January 04, 2009, 09:44:28 PM »
Read the bilge water in the Times.  That is what passes for a good article in the Times? 

I want my minutes back.



Quote
We must adjust our distorted image of Hamas

Why not, instead, "Hamas must act in a civilized manner and forgo trying to murder innocent civilians?"

Quote
Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue.

"The Germans did not vote Nazi because they were anti-semites, they voted for them because the various factions at Weimar had failed them."

Well, that should provide comfort to the families of those slaughtered by anti-semites this past century.

Or, maybe they rejected Fatah in part becasue it sought accommodation with the Joos.

Quote
In the five years that I have been visiting Gaza and the West Bank, I have met hundreds of Hamas politicians and supporters. None of them has professed the goal of Islamising Palestinian society, Taleban-style.

How gracious of them.

In the nine years I have worked for my employer, they have never professed the goal to implement subcutaneous RF tags for their employees.

Quote
The Bush-Blair response to the Hamas victory in 2006 is the key to today's horror.

Here it is.  It is not ever the Pali's fault they are murderous scum, elect murderous slime to lead them, and are as unsympathetic a people as have ever trod the Earth. 

Quote
When Westerners ask what is in the mind of Hamas leaders when they order or allow rockets to be fired at Israel they fail to understand the Palestinian position.

Don't really care anymore what is in their leaders' minds.  More interested in exposing the contents to the elements.

Quote
It is said that this conflict is impossible to solve. In fact, it is very simple. The top 1,000 people who run Israel - the politicians, generals and security staff - and the top Palestinian Islamists have never met. Genuine peace will require that these two groups sit down together without preconditions.

This man is a naive fool.  May he never be in a position to determine foreign policy.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #136 on: January 05, 2009, 02:19:35 AM »
Here's what Israel's President has to say:

Yesterday, we saw our soldiers with their heavy bags, carrying on their backs not just their gear, but the entire history of our people. We saw the commanders, with their night vision binoculars, looking forward, towards the future.

We are not a people who desires war. We are not an aggressive people. We do not aim to destroy the Arabs, but to bring peace. We say that the government was in grave doubt about this decision – it was because they feared doing an injustice. It is very important enough that the cause of our war be just.

Even today the government maintains a moderate tongue. We do not wish to destroy Gaza or even destroy Hamas. We only want the terror to end. When I look at the children of the Palestinians, my heart bleeds. They are being used as weapons, and we have no desire to hurt them or any other innocents. I am proud of the soldiers and commanders who have planned this operation. Operation Cast Lead is a justified and just action, aimed at hurting the Hamas, improving the Army's capacity for deterrence and achieving a long-term stable situation in Gaza and the surrounding area.

Some say that our reaction is disproportional. I ask: what is proportional? Should we only stop part of the rockets? The proper balance is between avoiding harm to innocents and making sure that the extremist maniacs realize that they have no chance, and ensuring they pay a heavy price for their actions.

We can't know how long the operation will go on. Nothing in life is perfect, and nothing is final. We are a small, democratic, fair and peaceloving nation. We feel this war is necessary and just. If we win it, then peace shall be our victory.

Shimon Peres, President of Israel, talking to schoolchildren in the South of Israel

My thoughts:

1.   It seems to me that he's not really addressing the schoolkids, he's addressing the media present.
2.   It also seems that he is already preparing the public for the idea that the Army will probably start short of ending the rocket fire completely. That is.... words cannot express my feeling regarding how pathetic this is. But that said, Peres is a Kadima member. Fail is their profession.
3.   As this progresses, I am getting more and more the feeling that Israel will quit on this before getting a real achievement, and go home, probably because of international pressure. Hamas will declare victory.
4.   The above is an optimist prediction. The pessimist prediction is that Hamas does something 'successful' – kidnaps another soldier, blows up an APC full of troops, or maybe hits a schoolbus with their rockets, and THEN Israel will leave. This will essentially be a Hamas victory, no matter what casualties we inflict on them. It'll be like the Tet Offensive, reproduced on a miniature, retarded Middle-Eastern Scale.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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De Selby

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #137 on: January 05, 2009, 02:29:26 AM »
I call bravo sierra.

For an easy counter-example, take a gander at the majority-Palestinian country to Israel's east: Jordan.

Any air raids by the Israelis over Amman, blasting Jordanian government buildings?  Why not, if they are Palestinians with no rights?  Might it be because Abdulla is not a fool who allows Palis to launch rockets from his territory?

King Abdullah is likely the least intelligent leader in the middle east after Saad Hariri.  But this is hardly relevant to the point, which is that the Palestinians are treated as if they have no rights. 

In western civilization, it was always considered a crime to kill people who were not: 1. Personally involved in violence or 2. Personally guilty of a crime.  When you start generalizing to "the Palestinians allow", you are trashing that long held principle of "no killing people unless they are personally responsible for some violent or criminal act." 

Turning to your points:

Quote
The Palis got the gov't they deserve in Hamas and are reaping crop of destruction they have so lovingly nurtured.

1. I hope there are enough Pali casualties to, in a paraphrase of one of my all-time favorite generals*, "Make them howl."

2. I doubt it, on both counts.  Much of the anti-Jew hostility has required a steady drumbeat by the gov't to keep it at a fever pitch.  In the absence, most will just go about their business.

Also, the "Arab street" is not worth paying any attention.  They are not much of a factor in what actually happens in the ME.

This is basically just proving my point.  You don't think the Palestinians have any rights, therefore, it's acceptable to kill record numbers of them to get their political leadership to do whatever you want it to do. 

Quoting Sherman just hammers it home.  Usually, people don't quote Sherman when they're making an argument that their celebrated wars are actually in the cause of individual rights, or that they actually believe the people warred upon have rights that must be respected.
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De Selby

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #138 on: January 05, 2009, 02:33:01 AM »
This is the big danger.  The whole Palestinian issue since 2006 has been a disaster for the West, potentially even more than Iraq has been when it comes to long-term issues.    


Yep-and everyone thought the Iranian masses were irrelevant too, until their tyrant was running scared for safe shores and mobs were violating the sanctity of the U.S. embassy.  And boy has that little lapse in attention to "the irrelevant ME street" turned out spectacularly.

That is likely what will happen now to Egypt: one day we will wake up, mobs will have burned the embassies and stoned Mubarak to death, and everyone will be shouting about how unpredictable and savage the whole thing was.  As if it weren't the obvious consequence of a steady stream of dead children out of Gaza, the poorest place in the entire Arab world.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 02:44:48 AM by shootinstudent »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

MicroBalrog

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #139 on: January 05, 2009, 02:34:41 AM »
Shootin, did you see my post? A lot of people in this thread are being FAR more Papal than the Pope.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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De Selby

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #140 on: January 05, 2009, 02:44:16 AM »
Shootin, did you see my post? A lot of people in this thread are being FAR more Papal than the Pope.

Yeah, they always have to out-likudnik the likudniks in America.  This is perhaps why I used to believe that the Kahanists had more sway in Israel-I was wrong, it's in America that they seem to have the most support.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #141 on: January 05, 2009, 05:56:44 AM »
jfruser,

Well thank God you responded to that article in a manner that was entirely free from fact.

Quote from: microbalrog
My thoughts:

1.   It seems to me that he's not really addressing the schoolkids, he's addressing the media present.
2.   It also seems that he is already preparing the public for the idea that the Army will probably start short of ending the rocket fire completely. That is.... words cannot express my feeling regarding how pathetic this is. But that said, Peres is a Kadima member. Fail is their profession.
3.   As this progresses, I am getting more and more the feeling that Israel will quit on this before getting a real achievement, and go home, probably because of international pressure. Hamas will declare victory.
4.   The above is an optimist prediction. The pessimist prediction is that Hamas does something 'successful' – kidnaps another soldier, blows up an APC full of troops, or maybe hits a schoolbus with their rockets, and THEN Israel will leave. This will essentially be a Hamas victory, no matter what casualties we inflict on them. It'll be like the Tet Offensive, reproduced on a miniature, retarded Middle-Eastern Scale.

I think its worth pointing out that (as Lebanon showed, and as not really been stated here) Olmert and his government are essentially rubbish.

IMHO (3) is the most likely outcome, since the public war aims (stopping rocket and mortar fire) are so clearly impossible to achieve without killing absolutely everyone that they will have to pull out.  Hamas will then launch a few rockets - which after all are extremely low tech and easy to fire off - and point out that they are still there, and have therefore won.  They will then be massively boosted as a result, just as Hezbollah was in Lebanon.  That could easily lead to Fatah being kicked out of the West Bank (despite all the Western support), and further problems for Mubarak in Egypt. 
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agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #142 on: January 05, 2009, 06:51:53 AM »

In western civilization, it was always considered a crime to kill people who were not: 1. Personally involved in violence or 2. Personally guilty of a crime.  When you start generalizing to "the Palestinians allow", you are trashing that long held principle of "no killing people unless they are personally responsible for some violent or criminal act." 

In the interests of fairness, this is not strictly speaking true (though it has been since 1945).  It was long held (since at least classical times, and probably all the way up to the end of ww2) that if the population of a town/fort/area resisted the occupiers / invaders then they were all fair game as a result.
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agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #143 on: January 05, 2009, 07:10:37 AM »
"Idiot!  A long life eating mush is best."
"Make peace, you fools"

K Frame

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #144 on: January 05, 2009, 07:13:10 AM »
Is Israel done repressing the peace loving Palestinians and violently disarming their menfolk, who only need those rockets to hunt food so that they won't starve to death?

Do we have verification that the Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel, or is this just a cynical ploy by the Isralies to get Gaza back?
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roo_ster

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #145 on: January 05, 2009, 07:46:55 AM »
King Abdullah is likely the least intelligent leader in the middle east after Saad Hariri.  But this is hardly relevant to the point, which is that the Palestinians are treated as if they have no rights. 

What IS relevant is that Abdullah is bright enough to not allow his government or citizens to launch rockets at Israel.  Admittedly, not a high bar...but a bar Hamas has yet to clear.

Amazing how that works: don't act in a hostile manner toward one's neighbors and try to kill innocents at random...and your neighbors leave you alone and don't bomb the *expletive deleted*it out of you. 

Stop whining about how "the Palestinians are treated as if they have no rights."  That is not the case.  What is occurring is that those Palis who have exercised their right to vote elected terrorist thugs to rule them are having the consequences of their actions brought home to them.



Quote from: agricola
jfruser,

Well thank God you responded to that article in a manner that was entirely free from fact.

The author is a twit and ought to be kept from any position of responsibility requiring judgment.

Also, "his" group is to the UK what CAIR is to the USA: jihadi apologists and militant Islam lobby:
http://www.forwardthinking.org/index.html

I put "his" in doubt quotes, as he is just the paid anglo front-man.

Regards,

roo_ster

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Iain

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #146 on: January 05, 2009, 08:55:43 AM »
A lot of people in this thread are being FAR more Papal than the Pope.

These threads always come down to this.
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makattak

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #147 on: January 05, 2009, 09:52:56 AM »
King Abdullah is likely the least intelligent leader in the middle east after Saad Hariri.  But this is hardly relevant to the point, which is that the Palestinians are treated as if they have no rights. 

In western civilization, it was always considered a crime to kill people who were not: 1. Personally involved in violence or 2. Personally guilty of a crime.  When you start generalizing to "the Palestinians allow", you are trashing that long held principle of "no killing people unless they are personally responsible for some violent or criminal act." 

Turning to your points:

This is basically just proving my point.  You don't think the Palestinians have any rights, therefore, it's acceptable to kill record numbers of them to get their political leadership to do whatever you want it to do. 

Quoting Sherman just hammers it home.  Usually, people don't quote Sherman when they're making an argument that their celebrated wars are actually in the cause of individual rights, or that they actually believe the people warred upon have rights that must be respected.

And you are foolishly treating an act of war by another state as a crime committed by an individual.

Maybe the United States should just step in and take over Gaza and arrest the people firing rockets.

That's our job as world policeman, isn't it?
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agricola

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #148 on: January 05, 2009, 10:03:26 AM »
These threads always come down to this.

The mad thing is that they come down to this here

I would have thought that JBTs running around blowing stuff up on suspicion and generally putting the hurt on innocent people would be pretty much always opposed on this forum, but involve Israel in the discussion and suddenly "we are all JBTs", and a government (which more than a few people have pointed out is not especially pro-gun or freedom-loving) is lauded, irrespective of what is actually happening.

"Idiot!  A long life eating mush is best."
"Make peace, you fools"

MicroBalrog

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Re: Air raid!
« Reply #149 on: January 05, 2009, 10:04:30 AM »
That's not what Israel is doing or there'd be far more civilians dead.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner