Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on October 15, 2022, 10:15:29 AM
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At least, not ready for exposure to salt water. It seems Florida is seeing a rash of Tesla fires after the hurricane.
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/transport/tesla-fires-after-hurricane-raises-alarm-for-florida-officials
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My neighbor has an EV - I think it's a Hyundai Ioniq - and she likes it. She told me she just plugs it in to regular house current, not a 220 line, and it has plenty of range.
But today she's driving down to San Antonio. We live just west of Austin, so that's a pretty good highway road trip and I expect she'll be using A/C, so when she gets back I'll have to ask her if she made the round trip on 1 charge, or if she had to plug it in somewhere.
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She should keep an electron can in her car so she can hitch-hike to the next charging station to get going again.
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/woman-hitchhiking-while-holding-a-gas-can-picture-id56724710)
Small electron can for electric motorcycles:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/X94AAOSw4wRdUIBS/s-l400.jpg)
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My neighbor has an EV - I think it's a Hyundai Ioniq - and she likes it. She told me she just plugs it in to regular house current, not a 220 line, and it has plenty of range.
But today she's driving down to San Antonio. We live just west of Austin, so that's a pretty good highway road trip and I expect she'll be using A/C, so when she gets back I'll have to ask her if she made the round trip on 1 charge, or if she had to plug it in somewhere.
Is it a true full EV or a plug in hybrid? See a lot of people buying the plug in hybrids these days where they get 30-40 miles of range on the battery then it runs the engine
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Pure EVs are definitely not ready to be the "every day, every man's" type of vehicle. Battery tech has a long way to go until price and convenience matches internal combustion. I know that these days everything is made (in china) to be disposable, but can EVs even make it to 5 years before they NEED to get scrapped? Battery life and health is still a huge issue in phones, I fear going though the same charade with a car.
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(https://crystalradio.net/misc/batteries/ev1.jpg)
Speaking as one whose house doorbell used to be powered by two of those monsters, I am constantly amazed at how many electrons can be compressed at high pressure into even a little AA cell nowadays.
So I'm looking forward to more miracles.
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Pure EVs are definitely not ready to be the "every day, every man's" type of vehicle. Battery tech has a long way to go until price and convenience matches internal combustion. I know that these days everything is made (in china) to be disposable, but can EVs even make it to 5 years before they NEED to get scrapped? Battery life and health is still a huge issue in phones, I fear going though the same charade with a car.
Tesla warrants their batteries for 8 years/100,000 miles. There are many Teslas over 200k miles.
Yes, they can make it 5 years without being scrapped.
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https://everpress.com/the-chieftain/remove-it-2?colour=646e2f&product=N03
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https://everpress.com/the-chieftain/remove-it-2?colour=646e2f&product=N03
The Sherman was a POS, but there's no need to remove it from history.
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The Sherman was a POS, but there's no need to remove it from history.
I'd rather have a Sherman than the POS in front of it.
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(https://crystalradio.net/misc/batteries/ev1.jpg)
Speaking as one whose house doorbell used to be powered by two of those monsters, I am constantly amazed at how many electrons can be compressed at high pressure into even a little AA cell nowadays.
So I'm looking forward to more miracles.
My Dad and I used to have one of those many years ago. We used it to fire up the glow plugs in our model airplane motors.
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The Sherman was a POS, but there's no need to remove it from history.
Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
(https://blog.elmc.co/photos/default/u_5aeaf411-9778-40e3-b772-3705ac18109c.jpg)
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On my neighbor's EV . . .
She said she started with 85% charge, made it to San Antonio and back to Austin without any additional charging, and still had 15% left in the battery. Used the A/C as well, but didn't take the main highway (I-35) but rather some alternate route.
To say I'm surprised would be an understatement.
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Keeping of of I35 probably helped. (Drag increases with the square of velocity) but that works out to be about 250 mile range, which is right in the range of a Hyandai EV.
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Some applications are much better suited to EVs than others. The ideal use would seem to be local delivery vehicles that don't have go a very far distance, do a lot of stop and go, and have owners who would benefit greatly from saving money. So if EVs really save money, are lower maintenance, etc. why aren't all local delivery vehicles already electric? Why do companies keep buying gas-burning vehicles that rack up fuel bills, have all those terrifying engines and transmissions with the dreaded "thousands of moving parts', need oil changes, etc, when they could supposedly reap a big competitive advantage by switching to EVs? Why haven't EVs completely taken over these applications where the deck is stacked in favor of EVs? And if they are still inferior to IC vehicles at these specialized roles, then how much more inferior must they be for more typical use cases? Why are we trying to get joe average to switch to an electric pickup when there are already applications where EVs would be much more suited, and EVs still haven't gained any market share basically anywhere?
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On my neighbor's EV . . .
She said she started with 85% charge, made it to San Antonio and back to Austin without any additional charging, and still had 15% left in the battery. Used the A/C as well, but didn't take the main highway (I-35) but rather some alternate route.
To say I'm surprised would be an understatement.
What was the distance and driving time?
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For P&D there aren’t many options on the market yet. It takes a company like the one I work for 3-4 years to go from identifying a new market like EVs to having a working truck they can market to customers. Not an ideal, fully optimized truck, but just something they can produce and deliver. It’ll take 10+ years to get a really optimized EV truck developed. Those efforts are well underway but we’re only maybe a couple years into that process. So, when there are EV options that exist in meaningful quantities it will be reasonable to revisit this topic. In 5 years I expect there will be plenty of such options being marketed, and then we can see if EVs are being adopted in numbers that move the needle by noticeable amounts, and how well they work vs ICE alternatives.
Some applications are much better suited to EVs than others. The ideal use would seem to be local delivery vehicles that don't have go a very far distance, do a lot of stop and go, and have owners who would benefit greatly from saving money. So if EVs really save money, are lower maintenance, etc. why aren't all local delivery vehicles already electric? Why do companies keep buying gas-burning vehicles that rack up fuel bills, have all those terrifying engines and transmissions with the dreaded "thousands of moving parts', need oil changes, etc, when they could supposedly reap a big competitive advantage by switching to EVs? Why haven't EVs completely taken over these applications where the deck is stacked in favor of EVs? And if they are still inferior to IC vehicles at these specialized roles, then how much more inferior must they be for more typical use cases? Why are we trying to get joe average to switch to an electric pickup when there are already applications where EVs would be much more suited, and EVs still haven't gained any market share basically anywhere?
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What was the distance and driving time?
I don't know exactly where she went in San Antonio, but google maps says about 95 miles (one way) from my suburb to Alamo Plaza, taking about an hour and 50 minutes.
Hyundai claims about a 300 mile range on one charge. My estimate is that she drove (roughly) 190 miles round trip on 70% of a charge, using a/c. That's not too far off the vehicle's advertised capability. I'm not going to grill her for more details.
Of course, being 75 or so, she does drive like a little old lady . . . ;)
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TFL Truck channel on YouTube has an on going series of tests of electric trucks vs gas and diesel. Usually pretty interesting. They go out of their way to promote the electrics; but pretty much every test they’ve done has just confirmed that battery tech isn’t ready for people who use their trucks as trucks.
As a side note, I was talking to my cousin who has a beef farm in northern Ontario. He said his farm vet had bought a Tesla model X as her work car last fall. She drove it through the winter, then traded it in. Because of the cold temps, there were days when her total range was around 70 miles. She covers roughly a 60 mile radius around her office. 3 times last year she had to rush to an emergency call, then have her husband come pick her up because she didn’t have the range to get back to the charging station at her office.
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I'm really tempted to try out one of the Sondors Metacycles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVjrt-JCKLg
Top regular speed around 70mph, with a brief burst to about 80mph. 4kW battery, range of about 50 miles. Under 5 hours to charge at 110v.
It'd keep a lot of routine miles off my Tuareg. And at $5000 it's not too shabby. A LOT less expensive than a Zero, that's for sure.
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I'm really tempted to try out one of the Sondors Metacycles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVjrt-JCKLg
Top regular speed around 70mph, with a brief burst to about 80mph. 4kW battery, range of about 50 miles. Under 5 hours to charge at 110v.
It'd keep a lot of routine miles off my Tuareg. And at $5000 it's not too shabby. A LOT less expensive than a Zero, that's for sure.
Maybe that's where the market is, and that's all it will ever be.. users that have a very stable routine. You do an exact x amount of miles every day, you have an unchanging x amount of down hours every day to charge... always the same, day in day out. But if you throw in unpredictability and spontaneity everything falls apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9LrExVcno
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Electric cars seem to be at about the same point that personal digital assistants (PDAs) were back in the '90s - my employer provided me with a Palm V back then (Just checked - it's still in my junk drawer! :rofl: ) and it would do things like link up with our network's message and meeting software. We used to say the Palm Pilot's capabilities made it almost useful, and that's more or less my opinion of today's electric cars. Of course, today's smart phones (even the "entry level" Samsung A11 I'm using today) outstrip the 20+ year old Palm's technology so far it's not even funny, and eventually I expect electric cars to progress as well.
Thing is, electric cars aren't just microchip and software tech - there's physics & chemistry involved; battery technology doesn't seem to advance as fast as software and computer chips, and neither does the grid infrastructure required to keep the cars charged. And everything about cars - from initial cost to upkeep and licensing - costs orders of magnitude more than phones.
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Maybe that's where the market is, and that's all it will ever be.. users that have a very stable routine. You do an exact x amount of miles every day, you have an unchanging x amount of down hours every day to charge... always the same, day in day out. But if you throw in unpredictability and spontaneity everything falls apart.
Yeah, I did a little more thinking on it and the Sondors bike BARELY gets me to work and back with about 10 miles of ideal charge remaining. If I throw in my Wednesday routine of going to the dojo in the evening, there isn't enough charge remaining.
I did come across a used 2015 Zero model SR for sale, with a recently replaced 13kW battery still with some warranty on it, for $6000. It's several hours away over in eastern California. But this model bike has 150 mile urban range and about 75 mile highway range. That takes care of my longest planned routine running about, with plenty to spare.
It just becomes a question of if I am saving enough fuel and wear and tear on my new Aprilia to justify $6000 plus additional insurance and registration on the Zero. I get above 50mpg on the Tuareg. I've committed that while under warranty (2 years), I'm having the dealership do my 12,000 mile services. I'll do my own oil changes. While miles are miles on tires, the Tuareg gets offroad bias tires that don't care for lots of urban miles. Having street bias tires on a Zero would get better longevity and also better control, not that the east Phoenix metro area offers much to test the side of a motorcycle's tread. The 12k service on the bike is reported to cost between $750 and $1000.
With all the brewing purchases and the dishwasher as well, I'm a bit short on money for a splurge purchase on a second motorcycle. Honestly I'd be hard pressed in two years to make up a $6000 difference versus just riding the Aprilia.
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Maybe that's where the market is, and that's all it will ever be.. users that have a very stable routine. You do an exact x amount of miles every day, you have an unchanging x amount of down hours every day to charge... always the same, day in day out. But if you throw in unpredictability and spontaneity everything falls apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9LrExVcno
Which underscores why gasoline and diesel became the standard fuels. The flexibility, range, and power are better than the alternatives.
Give EV's another 50 years of development and things might change. However, I think if that happens, it will be a market change, not something forced by govt regulations.
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(https://i.imgur.com/nGFEWXC.png)
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Maybe that's where the market is, and that's all it will ever be.. users that have a very stable routine. You do an exact x amount of miles every day, you have an unchanging x amount of down hours every day to charge... always the same, day in day out.
I've gotten sucked in to watching some of these extreme overlanding videos on youtube. I noticed there are a good number of Europeans that bring vehicles like those big ass Land Rover Defenders that they can get across the pond to do the Pan American highway. It's like all of them are vegans, and they all tout their solar and alternative energy stuff that they use for fridges and heating and whatnot, but pretty much all of them are driving diesels. =D
I haven't seen any electric vehicles yet that can claim that they can handle offroading stuff where you're getting way off the beaten path. I mean, they'll get you there, but you won't have enough juice to get back out.
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I haven't seen any electric vehicles yet that can claim that they can handle offroading stuff where you're getting way off the beaten path. I mean, they'll get you there, but you won't have enough juice to get back out.
https://ridebdr.com/news/bdr-partners-with-zero-motorcycles/
Seattle, WA – (October 17, 2022) Charging headfirst into the future, the adventure motorcycling non-profit Backcountry Discovery Routes® (BDR®) announced a multi-year partnership with Zero Motorcycles®, the worldwide leader in electric motorcycles and powertrains. Building on a shared vision of preserving riding opportunities and driving positive economic impact for neighboring communities, the Zero-BDR partnership includes OEM sponsorship of upcoming BDR and BDR-X routes. This exciting new alliance will raise awareness of and help grow the network of charging stations along 13 existing and future BDR routes
With its all-new DSR/X model, Zero’s impressive entry into the Adventure Bike category represents an increasingly important opportunity for adventure riders to explore the backcountry with minimal impact while taking advantage of the unmatched power delivery and reliability inherent in EV (Electric Vehicle) technology.
Potential concerns about the ability of EV bikes having the range required for true backcountry exploration will be put to the test by BDR on multi-day, long-distance scouting and filming expeditions. Most notably, the DSR/X will be challenged during the creation of the upcoming Northern California BDR (CABDR-North) and the Black Hills, SD BDR-X routes slated for release in the next two years.
[popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
Good luck getting charge infrastructure in towns like Tin Cup and Pitkin, Colorado. Or Young or Crown King, AZ.
I've been on several 500+ mile group ADV rides in the last year, including one that was nearly 3000 miles to Wyoming and back recently. There is no god-damned time to wait for an E-motorcycle to recharge on a ride like that. We've all got families and jobs to get back to.
The recent one I went on that was 9 days long:
-Day 1 was Phoenix to Cortez, CO. Nearly 500 miles. We cut across the Navajo reservation in order to cut 75 miles off the typical route, and to have more interesting scenery. Even if there was EV charge infrastructure somewhere in the middle of the rez, there's nowhere decent to eat and the vast majority of the rez doesn't want to cater to passers-by or travelers. Staying at a charge point for an hour or more would be quite uncomfortable. It was a long-ass day even with the convenience of a gas bike, and only taking 5-10 minutes to top off.
-Days 2-6 were all sub-200 mile days, but they were off-road almost entirely. It might have been possible for an EV to keep up on days we stayed in hotels... but we camped far more than used hotels.
-Days 7-9 were a mix of longish highway jaunts plus 30-50 miles of offroad exploration at a time. We came from the southern border of Wyoming back through Colorado to Gypsum, across to Moab Utah, south to Winslow Arizona, across the Rim to Young and through to Globe, and back to Phoenix. In 3 days.
A group member on a Zero would be a massive hindrance to getting any miles done. It would have been impossible to hit Arches like we did, or Colorado National Monument, or Rifle Falls.
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Jeep is coming out with an electric CJ for 2024. Bold move if it's for the true offroad crowd*. It might end up being an urban status vehicle, depending on charging infrastructure and battery tech in '24. I don't think I'd be comfortable taking into a lot of offroad places, like BFE Northern Nevada.
*The "overlanding" type offroad crowd versus the guys who go rock crawling for a day within an hour of the McDonalds.
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/classic-jeep-cj-shocking
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IMHO, Jeep hasn't made a true off-road vehicle since they discontinued the TJ series of Wranglers at least a decade ago. The current Cherokees and Grand Cherokees are gadget-heavy pavement queens. The Wrangler series that replaced the TJ suffered from weak axles, and the off-road crowd immediately found that for anything other than mild fire roads the front axles needed expensive reinforcing.
The new Gladiator pickup is also gadget-heavy and aimed at being a "personal statement" vehicle rather than a true off-road vehicle.
I hold out no hope for an electric Jeep to be anything other than a toy and a novelty.
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Jeep is coming out with an electric CJ for 2024. Bold move if it's for the true offroad crowd*. It might end up being an urban status vehicle, depending on charging infrastructure and battery tech in '24. I don't think I'd be comfortable taking into a lot of offroad places, like BFE Northern Nevada.
*The "overlanding" type offroad crowd versus the guys who go rock crawling for a day within an hour of the McDonalds.
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/classic-jeep-cj-shocking
Bring along a couple Jerry cans of, what?
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Bring along a couple Jerry cans of, what?
AA batteries. ;)
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Bring along a couple Jerry cans of, what?
Fuel for the generator.
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Biden: You can plug your house into your electric car
Me: It's Bourbon:30
President Joe Biden excited that you can power your house’s lights from your electric car
https://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?action=post;topic=67465.25;last_msg=1377989
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Jeep is coming out with an electric CJ for 2024. Bold move if it's for the true offroad crowd*. It might end up being an urban status vehicle, depending on charging infrastructure and battery tech in '24. I don't think I'd be comfortable taking into a lot of offroad places, like BFE Northern Nevada.
*The "overlanding" type offroad crowd versus the guys who go rock crawling for a day within an hour of the McDonalds.
https://www.foxnews.com/auto/classic-jeep-cj-shocking
Are you sure it's for 2024?
The parking lot in front of the building where I work has a 2-vehicle EV charging station near the front entrance to the building. As I left work this evening I noticed three late-model Jeep Wranglers in the lot. I was ruminating on how many people who work there seem to drive Jeeps (there are also a number of new pseudo-Cherokees and Grand Cherokees) when it dawned on me that one of the three Wranglers was in an EV space. I did a quick turn around the lot and pulled up next to it -- sure enough, it was plugged in and charging. That was the ONLY thing that was visually different than the other Wranglers in the lot.
I had no idea that Jeep was building electric Wranglers. But ... here it is:
https://www.jeep.com/wrangler/wrangler-4xe.html
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Are you sure it's for 2024?
Me? No. That's just what the article said.
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Jeep currently has a plug in hybrid Wrangler, the 4xe.
https://www.jeep.com/2022/wrangler/wrangler-4xe.html
That's probably what you saw.
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Jeep currently has a plug in hybrid Wrangler, the 4xe.
https://www.jeep.com/2022/wrangler/wrangler-4xe.html
That's probably what you saw.
That certainly looks like it. So it's a hybrid -- I'm not sure if that's better or worse than an all-electric vehicle (although for my purposes it probably is, depending on the range of an all-electric EV). The 21 mile-range for the Jeep in electric mode won't even get me from home to work.
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Hmmm ...
It appears the all-electric CJ isn't a proposed vehicle, it's a rolling display/test bed for a possible "resto-mod" electric conversion kit.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/an-electric-version-of-a-beloved-vintage-jeep-shows-how-easy-converting-your-old-gas-guzzler-could-soon-be/ar-AA13Cq9k
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That certainly looks like it. So it's a hybrid -- I'm not sure if that's better or worse than an all-electric vehicle (although for my purposes it probably is, depending on the range of an all-electric EV). The 21 mile-range for the Jeep in electric mode won't even get me from home to work.
Some friends of mine have a hybrid Rubicon. They seem to like it but are unable to articulate why the hybrid version over a regular version. I suspect there is some virtue signaling involved.
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Some friends of mine have a hybrid Rubicon. They seem to like it but are unable to articulate why the hybrid version over a regular version. I suspect there is some virtue signaling involved.
If someone believes that our current Federal policies relating to gasoline and electrical infrastructure are likely to result in either increased costs, reduced availability, or both for those commodities, having a vehicle which can take advantage of either one depending on the situation seems like a potential benefit.
I can see legitimate value in a plug-in hybrid, especially one that is able to cover most of your daily driving needs on the electrical side.
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That certainly looks like it. So it's a hybrid -- I'm not sure if that's better or worse than an all-electric vehicle (although for my purposes it probably is, depending on the range of an all-electric EV). The 21 mile-range for the Jeep in electric mode won't even get me from home to work.
My one brother has a Prius. I don't know if the battery is worn or not, but according to him pure electric is not good for very far at all.
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A 178 mile trip in 15 hours:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/first-time-ev-owner-shares-cautionary-tale-15-hours-drive-178-miles
Admittedly part of this story is in Wyoming, but that's also kind of the point. There are gonna be some empty stretches out there, as well as long stretches with slow chargers. Certainly the infrastructure will improve, but there are a lot of people that think they can do the same thing they do in their gassers, and the commission oriented e-vehicle salespeople probably aren't helping things.
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My one brother has a Prius. I don't know if the battery is worn or not, but according to him pure electric is not good for very far at all.
Prius is a hybrid. Hybrid is a latin word that means "worst of both worlds." The current generation has a 34 mile range using the battery only.
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Meanwhile
The White House issued new guidance requiring federal government employees to prioritize using electric vehicles (EV), trains and public transportation options when conducting official business.
The actions, which the White House said fulfilled President Biden's promise to "lead by example" on tackling climate change, seek to take advantage of the federal government's annual business travel purchasing power of $2.8 billion and status as the nation's largest employer. Overall, government employees on official business took more than 2.8 million flights, made 2.3 million vehicle rentals and took 33,000 rail trips last year.
Under the guidance, government employees must rent an EV on official travel when the cost of the EV is less than or equal to the most affordable comparable gas-powered vehicle available. Additionally, employees must opt for EVs when using taxis and ride-share platforms when they are cost-competitive.
Of course you got to remember what's important here, funneling more money to unions which, surprise!, predominantly vote democrat
"These operational changes will accelerate the clean transportation transformation, increase good-paying union jobs and create healthier communities," the White House said in a statement Thursday.
White House takes action to force government workers to travel via electric vehicle, rail
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-takes-action-force-government-workers-travel-electric-vehicle-rail
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Meanwhile
Of course you got to remember what's important here, funneling more money to unions which, surprise!, predominantly vote democrat
White House takes action to force government workers to travel via electric vehicle, rail
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-takes-action-force-government-workers-travel-electric-vehicle-rail
Great. Now my tax dollars get to go to paying fed.gov drones to sit around for five hours while the E-G-ride charges. Or else taking ten hours to travel someplace by electric (or any) train when a car would have gotten them there in two.
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Great. Now my tax dollars get to go to paying fed.gov drones to sit around for five hours while the E-G-ride charges. Or else taking ten hours to travel someplace by electric (or any) train when a car would have gotten them there in two.
As I said before they need to come up with some univeral standard battery packs that can be swapped out at "filling stations". You don't own a battery, you just rent it. Like the Blue Rhino for propane tanks.
Pull into a bay, the battery is swapped out with a fully charged one and you're on your way.
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^^^Endorse, endorse, endorse! A group in Asia is trying to come up with a uniform standard of swappable scooter/motorcycle batteries. It would be great if that makes it over here.
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It's just virtue signaling for Beltway Cocktail parties. There's nowhere in the US you can rent an EV for less than the economy POS you are required to rent. Similarly, no one is going to AMTRAK across the country, because trains don't meet the travel time requirements and so are unauthorized. Little to no Fed.gov travel will change under this.
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Prius is a hybrid. Hybrid is a latin word that means "worst of both worlds." The current generation has a 34 mile range using the battery only.
I've not heard that one before, so I thank you.
It's way past time fed.gov employees were barred from using internal combustion vehicles altogether. Or firearms.
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^^^Endorse, endorse, endorse! A group in Asia is trying to come up with a uniform standard of swappable scooter/motorcycle batteries. It would be great if that makes it over here.
Having some sort of cheap 4-seater glorified electric golf cart with a top speed of 30-35mph (and limited to such streets) for small city/suburbanites would make sense too, keep the gas or bigger electric vehicle for leaving town. I live in a town on 25k and something like that would fit for the majority of the people just for day to day in town driving. I have 3 roads withing city limits that are over 35mph. One stretch is 45mph for about 3/4 mile to Walmart and a small shopping center. that could easily have the speed reduced from 45-35 for that 3/4 mile. The other roads are in a more rural, aka farm fields and industrial part of town.
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It's just virtue signaling for Beltway Cocktail parties.
Well, the beltway is where their plan will actually work. They never seem to think about how far-reaching geographically their own organization is. I recall in my day Obama came out with some "25% of all fleet vehicles at a location have to be alternative fuel". We got stuck with a propane van that the enviros in the office were all jazzed about until they had to find places to fill it up.
I recall I got us out of that mess at the time with a grey area loophole regarding E85 vehicles. The E85 would qualify even if there was no E85 fuel available at your duty station. So the van got swapped for some E85 Ford compact.
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Having some sort of cheap 4-seater glorified electric golf cart with a top speed of 30-35mph (and limited to such streets) for small city/suburbanites would make sense too, keep the gas or bigger electric vehicle for leaving town. I live in a town on 25k and something like that would fit for the majority of the people just for day to day in town driving. I have 3 roads withing city limits that are over 35mph. One stretch is 45mph for about 3/4 mile to Walmart and a small shopping center. that could easily have the speed reduced from 45-35 for that 3/4 mile. The other roads are in a more rural, aka farm fields and industrial part of town.
My ex wife lives in the Phoenix area now and she says upgraded golf carts are all over the road in the golf community that she lives in and other parts of town.
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As I said before they need to come up with some univeral standard battery packs that can be swapped out at "filling stations". You don't own a battery, you just rent it. Like the Blue Rhino for propane tanks.
Pull into a bay, the battery is swapped out with a fully charged one and you're on your way.
Have you looked at the battery pack for a Tesla recently?
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Have you looked at the battery pack for a Tesla recently?
That is thinking in terms of yesterday. Think for the future.
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Tesla at one point claimed that quick swap battery packa were going to be a feature. Given that Elon was able land his rockets and reuse them I am inclined to think it's not exactly simple to design a car for that.
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My ex wife lives in the Phoenix area now and she says upgraded golf carts are all over the road in the golf community that she lives in and other parts of town.
My parents are in Marana and have one such golf cart. They're quite handy in that environment.
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Tesla at one point claimed that quick swap battery packa were going to be a feature. Given that Elon was able land his rockets and reuse them I am inclined to think it's not exactly simple to design a car for that.
I also think about my parent's grandparents, born before the age of the automobile in the late 1800's. Then in less than 30 years after they were born (1920s), all the cars on the road.
Then I look at all the advances in technology in my brief nearly 50 years on this rock.
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As I said before they need to come up with some univeral standard battery packs that can be swapped out at "filling stations". You don't own a battery, you just rent it. Like the Blue Rhino for propane tanks.
Pull into a bay, the battery is swapped out with a fully charged one and you're on your way.
Except it weighs over 1000 pounds.
And if you have a ~50kWhr battery that is easily swappable, then it is also easily penetrated by water.
Remember, we're talking about gas station quick. Not Jiffy Lube quick. Otherwise we're back to recharging a fixed pack.
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Rather than quick change battery packs, I would rather see more easily recyclable batteries.
I used to hear a lot about hydrogen fuel cells. Is that a technology that never got far enough?
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They're still working on fuel cells. I still have hopes to see viable fuel cells in my lifetime.
A home powered by an ethanol fuel cell would be very interesting, but research on that type seems to be lagging.
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Some of the issues with quick swapping a battery pack like that is the high voltage cables, cooling lines, etc then there is the installed location, lifting equipment, etc for handling the weight.
And while you might get down to “x” time if everything goes perfect, you sure as hell won’t when things aren’t going perfect and definitely are going to be in a pickle when everything goes to hell. Add in cars that AREN’T in new off the dealer lot condition, having gone through minor collisions, road damage, corrosion from salt and dirt, etc and you will have more issues.
Then there is the whole fact that technology is ever marching on so do you expect the battery swap station to stock a variety of them to meet various generations and form factors? There is no such thing as standardization once product improvements start happening.
And who is going to pay the skilled technician to perform this battery swap? Your jiffy lube grade *expletive deleted*tard can’t fix a sandwhich much less do any skilled work on a car, not when they *expletive deleted*ck up simple oil changes. You don’t want a dumbass doing this kind of work and burning you car down because they didn’t do it right. We can’t get enough people in standard repair fields now, where is this massive workforce to staff every battery swap station going to come from in a nation of people who are lazy as the day is long and don’t want to work?
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. . . We can’t get enough people in standard repair fields now, where is this massive workforce to staff every battery swap station going to come from in a nation of people who are lazy as the day is long and don’t want to work?
I'm wondering what kind of electrical connections a battery swap station would need to recharge the multitude of batteries they've swapped on a busy morning . . .
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I'm wondering what kind of electrical connections a battery swap station would need to recharge the multitude of batteries they've swapped on a busy morning . . .
In actual deployment today, the charging station can slow charge in off-peak hours. It can work. There are some places in Europe and China that do this. It isn’t insurmountable.
Boomhauer’s notes about changes in pack design potentially disrupting compatibility are relevant though.
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Some of the issues with quick swapping a battery pack
This fella knows what he's talking about.
There are many other potential issues. I can't swap the battery in my gasser without having to reset the monitoring system. I can't imagine that not being the same on an actual battery operated car. Will there be a trained technician at all locations to do this so that non-mechanically inclined drivers don't brick their car? Those techs will be available 24/7, right? Or do I only travel during business hours?
What about battery pack quality? If we're using the propane tank analogy, before I just started always taking mine in for a fill, I would get a pretty good range of swap tanks, from looking brand new, to worrying about leaks, and saw different draws through different tanks. I can't imagine that any company trying to make a profit in battery swap stations wouldn't have a pretty liberal range of "acceptable" before they pulled a pack from rotation. I'd be pissed if I swapped a pack that I was getting a 500 mile range on for a worn out pack that only gave me 250.
I would assume that there would also be pretty invasive and expensive government regulation and inspection protocols put in place.
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Solid state batteries may resolve a lot of these problems. Commercial prototypes that are set to be released for testing next year have 50% or more energy density and weigh much less than their Li-Ion counterparts, and can supposedly be recharged in 15-20 minutes. They are also showing 800-1000 charge cycles while retaining at least 80% of their original capacity.
IIRC, QuantumScape will be working closely with Volkswagen on real-world testing of their prototypes next year. I am very curious as to how that will turn out.
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All of these issues with charging or battery-swapping are probably seen as assets by, um, some people. It sounds like it would be easier to just treat EVs as a subscription service. You drive an EV as long as the charge holds out, and then take it to the nearest Amazon garage to exchange it for another. All your movements are tracked, and your mileage recorded. It starts out as unlimited mileage, but eventually, we have to limit you to 200 miles a day. For the planet, you know. Then 150. Then 40. Then 20, 10, 5, etc. Also, watch what you say about
politics anything. Can't be renting transportation to extremists and meat-eaters and such. Or religious freaks.
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All of these issues with charging or battery-swapping are probably seen as assets by, um, some people. It sounds like it would be easier to just treat EVs as a subscription service.
That's kinda like we hear about self-driving cars (which are not in the news so much these days). If cars are self driving, no need to own one. Just call one up on your phone. Pretty sure it's all the same people once you follow the money (and politics).
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Solid state batteries may resolve a lot of these problems. Commercial prototypes that are set to be released for testing next year have 50% or more energy density and weigh much less than their Li-Ion counterparts, and can supposedly be recharged in 15-20 minutes. They are also showing 800-1000 charge cycles while retaining at least 80% of their original capacity.
IIRC, QuantumScape will be working closely with Volkswagen on real-world testing of their prototypes next year. I am very curious as to how that will turn out.
That would be what they need. Quick battery changes only make sense if the batteries are smaller and light enough to handle.
Of course, at that point, why not have more batteries in the vehicle to make the range and/or power a lot higher? Or have a spare battery charging at your house all day that you will swap out at the end of the day?
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That would be what they need. Quick battery changes only make sense if the batteries are smaller and light enough to handle.
Of course, at that point, why not have more batteries in the vehicle to make the range and/or power a lot higher? Or have a spare battery charging at your house all day that you will swap out at the end of the day?
Part of the allure of solid state batteries is rapid charging. If you can add 300 miles of charge in 15 minutes why bother making rapidly swappable batteries?
But, charging that rapidly doesn't alleviate the power generation and transmission infrastructure issues. No matter who fast they can charge, or how small/light they are, or how many charge cycles they can tolerate, if the power isn't being produced or transmitted to the charging station it won't matter.
And at the same time the people pushing BEVs are trying to dismantle every coal, gas, or oil power plant, tear down all the hydropower dams, and stop every nuclear project from going anywhere. Plus ban natural gas and propane appliances and home heating systems.
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Part of the allure of solid state batteries is rapid charging. If you can add 300 miles of charge in 15 minutes why bother making rapidly swappable batteries?
But, charging that rapidly doesn't alleviate the power generation and transmission infrastructure issues. No matter who fast they can charge, or how small/light they are, or how many charge cycles they can tolerate, if the power isn't being produced or transmitted to the charging station it won't matter.
And at the same time the people pushing BEVs are trying to dismantle every coal, gas, or oil power plant, tear down all the hydropower dams, and stop every nuclear project from going anywhere. Plus ban natural gas and propane appliances and home heating systems.
And this sometimes makes me wonder if the real agenda is not "saving the earf", instead it's getting people off the roads and restricting their ability to travel. Getting the majority of people into high density urban housing. Make them more controllable.
Maybe I need to screw my tinfoil hat on a little tighter.
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And this sometimes makes me wonder if the real agenda is not "saving the earf", instead it's getting people off the roads and restricting their ability to travel. Getting the majority of people into high density urban housing. Make them more controllable.
Maybe I need to screw my tinfoil hat on a little tighter.
"fifteen minute cities", an arcology with outside doors that don't open.
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And this sometimes makes me wonder if the real agenda is not "saving the earf", instead it's getting people off the roads and restricting their ability to travel. Getting the majority of people into high density urban housing. Make them more controllable.
Maybe I need to screw my tinfoil hat on a little tighter.
Ergo - "slaves".
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Meanwhile
Of course you got to remember what's important here, funneling more money to unions which, surprise!, predominantly vote democrat
White House takes action to force government workers to travel via electric vehicle, rail
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/white-house-takes-action-force-government-workers-travel-electric-vehicle-rail
I cheered when I read this actually. If the regime cares about the environment and they want normals to start changing their habits, they need to eat their own dogfood and do it themselves first.
I've been saying it locally for years. My mayor claims to support biking and transit, because of course all Democrats have to say that, but I've been saying for years she should be required to sell her car and go everywhere by walking and transit for at least a year, then...if she even survived...report back on how practical it is to ride a bike in our city and how "good" our transit is.
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How other countries see electric vehicles:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/electric-bikes-offer-climate-solutions-in-asia-africa/
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How other countries see electric vehicles:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/electric-bikes-offer-climate-solutions-in-asia-africa/
Would not mind having a good quality (no Wish grade crap) E-bike at all. Trouble is, around here I'd have to bring it inside when not in use, lest it be stolen.
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Back in 2020, at the height of my left hip problems, when I could no longer swing a leg over the bicycles and motorcycle, I bought a 2011 Yamaha Zuma 125 flat floor scooter, and a 2020 Tern HSD 8Si electric cargo bicycle with a step through frame. The Tern cost me just over $ 4000. By doing this, I was still able to enjoy two wheels. Now that I am all better after the left hip replacement, I still enjoy riding both the Yamaha and the Tern. I can turn off the battery assist completely on the bicycle and pedal along, or if I want some extra speed or help on the hills, I can turn on the battery motor. With the crate on the back of the Tern, I can ride down to some of the local breweries and pick up a six pack or growler to bring back home. It is a great bicycle, and I probably ride it the most frequently of all my bicycles, which include the Tern, two road bikes and a mountain bike.
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I'm also going to be curious in the meantime (as the charging stations get better and more accessible) for folks like me who are given a company car for work and drive 30-40k miles per year.
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I wouldn't mind an electric version of my Dad's UTV. Mainly to be able to cruise around the woods quietly. Not sure the cost is worth it since I can just walk.
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Irony can be pretty ironic
Maine's vote on banning gas cars was supposed to be today but was postponed due to widespread power outages.
Happy solstice.
— Phil Kerpen (@kerpen) December 21, 2023
https://twitchy.com/dougp/2023/12/21/maine-vote-to-ban-gas-powered-cars-in-favor-of-evs-postponed-the-most-ironic-reason-n2391035
https://twitter.com/kerpen/status/1737862698614833268
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GB4g4BaWIAAN3o1?format=png&name=900x900)
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I wouldn't mind an electric version of my Dad's UTV. Mainly to be able to cruise around the woods quietly. Not sure the cost is worth it since I can just walk.
Same. An electric quad or ranch utility vehicle could interest me.
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I wouldn't mind an electric version of my Dad's UTV. Mainly to be able to cruise around the woods quietly. Not sure the cost is worth it since I can just walk.
Being far quieter would be a big plus IMHO
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Plenty of options:
https://www.huntve.com/copy-of-models
https://landmaster.com/utility-vehicles/amp-4x4-crew-2024
https://www.polaris.com/en-us/off-road/ranger/models/ranger-xp-kinetic/?model=ranger-xp-kinetic-ultimate&option=2-SEAT&trim=icy-white-pearl
https://www.drrusa.com/ev-pathfinder-electric-utv
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/4-wheel-electric-tricycle-Cargo-electric_1600079365560.html
^^Video on that Chang Li: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixJDOH864U
ETA: Apparently there's and electric Gator too: https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/traditional-gators/te-4x2-electric-utility-vehicle/
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Plenty of options:
https://www.polaris.com/en-us/off-road/ranger/models/ranger-xp-kinetic/?model=ranger-xp-kinetic-ultimate&option=2-SEAT&trim=icy-white-pearl
ETA: Apparently there's and electric Gator too: https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/traditional-gators/te-4x2-electric-utility-vehicle/
Yikes! No thanks. Polaris actually put out an electric 570 the year after I got my 500, and I was thinking, "Man I should have waited a year", because for my uses, and electric would be just fine. But I distinctly remember that the local dealer was selling it for $16ishK. The one in the link is $30K, which is more than double what a gasser 570 goes for, and triple the $10K I paid for my 2020 500.
I can only imagine what the electric Gator goes for, given John Deere is already pretty proud of their stuff.
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The Chang Li looks kind of cool. If landed price were closer to $4k then I'd be significantly more interested. It doesn't look quite as capable as I'd want when it comes to hills and the woods, but it would get plenty of use around the property.
A lot of the other electric UTVs are way outside my price range for that kind of thing.
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Ok, I actually hit the link on the Gator, and it's going for $15.5K. That's actually competitive, though I expect the 4x4 is a couple grand more. I don't know what the heck is going on with that Polaris.
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I'm more curious about that $10K Toyota truck I've been hearing about. How come the furriners get all the cool stuff?
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I'm more curious about that $10K Toyota truck I've been hearing about. How come the furriners get all the cool stuff?
No crash standards or emissions requirements.
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I'm more curious about that $10K Toyota truck I've been hearing about. How come the furriners get all the cool stuff?
Yeah, that does sound neat. Though I am not sure about door locks being optional... :laugh:
Apparently the tarriff on imported trucks is high, so that hurts us here.
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No crash standards or emissions requirements.
Not really. The real culprit is CAFE standards.
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Not really. The real culprit is CAFE standards.
That's part of emissions requirements. Indirectly but still part.
The lack of passing DOT crash standards, and not having modern emissions equipment though is a big part of why they aren't imported until 25 years old.
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I saw my first Tesla truck the other day, parked outside the local Barnes & Noble in Bee Cave, Texas.
My impression: That is one ugly ass truck. It looks a LOT worse in person than it does on TV or in pictures.
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I saw my first Tesla truck the other day, parked outside the local Barnes & Noble in Bee Cave, Texas.
My impression: That is one ugly ass truck. It looks a LOT worse in person than it does on TV or in pictures.
I like Elon and I like a lot of what he’s doing or trying to do with SoaceX and Tesla
His stainless steel dorito is a complete WTF moment though. None of it makes any kind of logical sense and it is something you can just look at and tell is absolutely useless and stupid.
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I like Elon and I like a lot of what he’s doing or trying to do with SoaceX and Tesla
His stainless steel dorito is a complete WTF moment though. None of it makes any kind of logical sense and it is something you can just look at and tell is absolutely useless and stupid.
The stainless steel doritos are actually pretty good if you dip them in SoaceX.
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The stainless steel doritos are actually pretty good if you dip them in SoaceX.
Their Raptor sauce is really spicy. Just got to watch out for pieces of concrete and you may destroy your toilet.
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The Chang Li looks kind of cool. If landed price were closer to $4k then I'd be significantly more interested. It doesn't look quite as capable as I'd want when it comes to hills and the woods, but it would get plenty of use around the property.
A lot of the other electric UTVs are way outside my price range for that kind of thing.
I like the ChangLi, but when I first hit the link I got an error message informing me that it's not available in my region. I fired up a VPN set to Japan and then I was able to view it.
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https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/ev-battery-icbc-writeoff
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-ioniq-5-battery-replacement-saga-continues-226590.html
Hmm, very minor damage to a battery pack can result in an essentially new car being scrapped, at least in British Columbia.
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https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/ev-battery-icbc-writeoff
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-ioniq-5-battery-replacement-saga-continues-226590.html
Hmm, very minor damage to a battery pack can result in an essentially new car being scrapped, at least in British Columbia.
Given the higher than you'd like probability of spontaneous combustion that's not entirely unreasonable.
That said I think some important advances that will be demanded by the marketplace (probably via insurance companies) will be finding ways to make batteries that A) don't self-immolate from minor damage, and B) can have damaged/failing portions replaced without scrapping the whole battery pack.
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Rented a car for a 2 week trip from Columbus OH airport, Avis "upgraded" me a plug-in hybrid.
Thought it would be fun to check out my actual MPG, see how long it would run on pure electric, etc.
When I picked it up the battery was on 0%, even though they apparently had chargers in the garage. Asked the attendant how to charge it, do I have to bring it back fully charged, etc, he had no clue as expected. It was midnight so I figured I would call later.
Next day I checked US govt website (pretty good) and downloaded the most popular app to find chargers. Zero J1772 chargers available in the city I'm visiting. Zero. A small fleet of superchargers, but those don't work. Official adapter doesn't exist; unofficial adapters exist, but are hundreds of dollars.
My fallback plan was charge it off a regular extension cord. Can't do it out of the box. Need a special pigtail thing, rental company probably should have given me one. Really stupid you can't charge it off an extension cord.
The car says fully charging the battery would take 14 hours on an extension cord, 3 hours on a proper charger. At this rate it looks like I'm going to spend the whole trip on gasoline, dragging around an empty battery and motors...a true compliance car
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My fallback plan was charge it off a regular extension cord. Can't do it out of the box. Need a special pigtail thing, rental company probably should have given me one. Really stupid you can't charge it off an extension cord.
So I learn something every day and I would have had no idea that you would need an adapter to charge it off a 110 circuit. I wonder if that is common across plug in hybrids.
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So I learn something every day and I would have had no idea that you would need an adapter to charge it off a 110 circuit. I wonder if that is common across plug in hybrids.
My next door neighbor has a Hyundai Ioniq and she has a special charging cord with a good sized in-line converter (transformer?) to charge he car from a standard wall outlet. It seems to suit her just fine for topping off the battery every day since most of her trips are local, but I don't think she wants to admit to just how long it takes her to charge the vehicle from the wall plug if she lets the battery get really low.
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...The car says fully charging the battery would take 14 hours on an extension cord, 3 hours on a proper charger. At this rate it looks like I'm going to spend the whole trip on gasoline, dragging around an empty battery and motors...a true compliance car
I'm not sure but I think t's worse than that, you'll be using gasoline to charge their battery for them on the road. HTH :)
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I'm not sure but I think t's worse than that, you'll be using gasoline to charge their battery for them on the road. HTH :)
Assuming the batteries are taking a charge, any power the ICE makes in excess of what the car needs to move will be used to power the charging system. So, if you drive conservatively (lift and coast, etc) the battery will slowly charge while you drive.
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Assuming the batteries are taking a charge, any power the ICE makes in excess of what the car needs to move will be used to power the charging system. So, if you drive conservatively (lift and coast, etc) the battery will slowly charge while you drive.
Yes, and because its charging the battery won't the ICE use more fuel? That energy is not free.
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Yes, and because its charging the battery won't the ICE use more fuel? That energy is not free.
For the most part it only charges with waste power (coasting and idling mostly), regenerative braking, and any other waste energy recovery schemes they chose to utilize.
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I've burned about 2/3 of a tank and the battery hasn't budged. It has come up to 3% a couple times, presumably from regenerative braking. Which makes sense, it has a plug and you are supposed to get your juice from the wall instead of from burning gasoline.
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We just got a Ford Maverick hybrid truck.
Peppy little thing. It runs on battery about half the time, and then the engine comes on. Yesterday, had to run an errand, and the dash showed "battery" use for the first dozen or so blocks. I hate the bed for carrying parts - to access stuff, you pretty much have to drop the tailgate, because the sides are taller... Four door cab, so a lot of stuff just goes in the back seat. And if I'm driving, it is a three-seater, because drivers side rear has zero legroom.
My take on the future?
Someone is going to have to develop a battery standard, and get the others to accept it. Size, shape, electronics. That battery will plug into any compatible vehicle.
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My next door neighbor has a Hyundai Ioniq and she has a special charging cord with a good sized in-line converter (transformer?) to charge he car from a standard wall outlet. It seems to suit her just fine for topping off the battery every day since most of her trips are local, but I don't think she wants to admit to just how long it takes her to charge the vehicle from the wall plug if she lets the battery get really low.
Think of the battery's Kilowatt-hour size as a more complicated way of saying "gallons."
A 110v plug is only going to put in about 1.2 "gallons" per hour, into a ~50 gallon tank. Assuming the EV has a 50 kilowatt-hour battery bank of course.
A home 220v plug will put in about 3-5 "gallons" per hour.
Non-Tesla J1772 charge systems will peak at about 20 "gallons" per hour.
And Tesla's charging system that isn't compatible with any other manufacturer can charge over 50 "gallons" per hour, and is the most prolific charger out there by far.
It amazes me how many people can't grasp Kilowatt-hours as a store of energy, or (Kilo)watt-hours per mile as a rate of consumption to evaluate an EV's efficiency and get an idea of what kind of charging regimen it will take to live successfully with an EV.
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We just got a Ford Maverick hybrid truck.
Peppy little thing. It runs on battery about half the time, and then the engine comes on. Yesterday, had to run an errand, and the dash showed "battery" use for the first dozen or so blocks. I hate the bed for carrying parts - to access stuff, you pretty much have to drop the tailgate, because the sides are taller... Four door cab, so a lot of stuff just goes in the back seat. And if I'm driving, it is a three-seater, because drivers side rear has zero legroom.
What's the bed length on the Maverick? From the photos on Ford's web site, it looks like it can't be more than 5 feet.
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Think of the battery's Kilowatt-hour size as a more complicated way of saying "gallons."
A 110v plug is only going to put in about 1.2 "gallons" per hour, into a ~50 gallon tank. Assuming the EV has a 50 kilowatt-hour battery bank of course.
A home 220v plug will put in about 3-5 "gallons" per hour.
Non-Tesla J1772 charge systems will peak at about 20 "gallons" per hour.
And Tesla's charging system that isn't compatible with any other manufacturer can charge over 50 "gallons" per hour, and is the most prolific charger out there by far.
It amazes me how many people can't grasp Kilowatt-hours as a store of energy, or (Kilo)watt-hours per mile as a rate of consumption to evaluate an EV's efficiency and get an idea of what kind of charging regimen it will take to live successfully with an EV.
That's all very good and useful information, and is EXACTLY the sort of thing I would research if I were interested in getting an electric car myself.
I found a reference that my neighbor's electric Hyundai Ioniq has a 38 kWh battery, so if it were completely depleted, plugging it into a wall socket (as she does) it would take over a day to fully charge it up. Since she says it recharges overnight, it's certain that all she's doing is topping off the battery after short local trips.
She DID come close to being "stranded" once on the way back from San Antonio when her recharging plans didn't work out . . . but that's another story.
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The unit the cars actually use to describe charging rate is miles per hour. As in miles of range added, per hour of charging. Most people don't have any intuition for what a kWh means in terms of range. And just like MPG, kWh translates into different range for different vehicles.
The Tesla chargers by me have a rating of 350A / 500V at full duty cycle, which is 175kW. For giggles I calculated that's about 260hp, so about the same amount of power as a V6 engine. I think the supercharger is designed for 300kW or maybe even 500kW but I don't know if there are any of those out there.
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The unit the cars actually use to describe charging rate is miles per hour. As in miles of range added, per hour of charging. Most people don't have any intuition for what a kWh means in terms of range. And just like MPG, kWh translates into different range for different vehicles.
The Tesla chargers by me have a rating of 350A / 500V at full duty cycle, which is 175kW. For giggles I calculated that's about 260hp, so about the same amount of power as a V6 engine. I think the supercharger is designed for 300kW or maybe even 500kW but I don't know if there are any of those out there.
BEV trucks will require 350kw minimum for chargers, 500kw to me sorta reasonable, 1+mw ideally. Imagine a truck stop with a few dozen of those running simultaneously.
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It is an interesting bit of human psychology and what we make ourselves used to that folks will say lithium batteries may catch fire and that makes a vehicle unsafe, while driving around with 20 gals of gasoline in a plastic tank.
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Think of the battery's Kilowatt-hour size as a more complicated way of saying "gallons."
A 110v plug is only going to put in about 1.2 "gallons" per hour, into a ~50 gallon tank. Assuming the EV has a 50 kilowatt-hour battery bank of course.
A home 220v plug will put in about 3-5 "gallons" per hour.
Non-Tesla J1772 charge systems will peak at about 20 "gallons" per hour.
And Tesla's charging system that isn't compatible with any other manufacturer can charge over 50 "gallons" per hour, and is the most prolific charger out there by far.
It amazes me how many people can't grasp Kilowatt-hours as a store of energy, or (Kilo)watt-hours per mile as a rate of consumption to evaluate an EV's efficiency and get an idea of what kind of charging regimen it will take to live successfully with an EV.
What are you using for the conversion factor for kWh to gallons, about 1.4? A home 220V welder outlet should be able to provide about 7.5 "gallons" per hour, assuming it's wired with full-size conductors. (for dedicated welder circuits, the NEC at least used to let you use smaller conductors based on the duty cycle of the welder) Or does the charger limit you to 20 or 30A?
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It is an interesting bit of human psychology and what we make ourselves used to that folks will say lithium batteries may catch fire and that makes a vehicle unsafe, while driving around with 20 gals of gasoline in a plastic tank.
The batteries can catch fire spontaneously. Gas tanks don't.
When my car burned it was the 12v battery that started it. Fuel never burned, or at least not until the battery fire caused a line to break, and just what might have dribbled out.
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It is an interesting bit of human psychology and what we make ourselves used to that folks will say lithium batteries may catch fire and that makes a vehicle unsafe, while driving around with 20 gals of gasoline in a plastic tank.
I was thinking the same thing, but by the same token, I’m sure 130 years of gasoline powered vehicle development has made gas tanks much safer than they were in their first decades of use. Plus, modern electric vehicles require much larger batteries and use them as significant structural elements in a way that differs significantly from gas tanks.
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The batteries can catch fire spontaneously. Gas tanks don't.
When my car burned it was the 12v battery that started it. Fuel never burned, or at least not until the battery fire caused a line to break, and just what might have dribbled out.
Not really. They can catch fire if punctured or overheated by another fire nearby. You have the same battery in your pocket most of the day, and it rarely burns people's asses. I've also seen plenty of carbeques that clearly involved the fuel tank. It happens in accidents commonly enough.
I honestly don't know if one is a significantly more dangerous than the other, but both are traveling firestarter, I think we're all just use to carting a bunch of gas around.
I wonder if there were a bunch of horse people in the early 1900's kvetching about gas tanks.
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What are you using for the conversion factor for kWh to gallons, about 1.4? A home 220V welder outlet should be able to provide about 7.5 "gallons" per hour, assuming it's wired with full-size conductors. (for dedicated welder circuits, the NEC at least used to let you use smaller conductors based on the duty cycle of the welder) Or does the charger limit you to 20 or 30A?
No conversion factor, I'm considering 1kW-hr equivalent to 1 "gallon" in terms of what you're storing in your vehicle and the rate of transfer on different circuits.
120v outlets are rarely dedicated to one device, so most devices on a 20A circuit are designed to only pull 10 amps at most. A car plugged into a 120v circuit will pull 10 amps, about 1200 watts, 1.2 kilowatts, or 1.2 "gallons" in terms of what you're storing in the vehicle.
220v outlets are generally 30 amp and can output 6000-7000 watts. I suppose I undershot my estimate in that context.
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https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/ev-battery-icbc-writeoff
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/yikes-the-60000-hyundai-ioniq-5-battery-replacement-saga-continues-226590.html
Hmm, very minor damage to a battery pack can result in an essentially new car being scrapped, at least in British Columbia.
Given the higher than you'd like probability of spontaneous combustion that's not entirely unreasonable.
That said I think some important advances that will be demanded by the marketplace (probably via insurance companies) will be finding ways to make batteries that A) don't self-immolate from minor damage, and B) can have damaged/failing portions replaced without scrapping the whole battery pack.
Even before they're in the car
Wonder who or what they were meant for?
Cargo ship carrying burning lithium ion batteries reaches Alaska but is kept offshore amid frantic battle to extinguish the blaze as crew fears explosion
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12915069/Cargo-ship-carrying-burning-lithium-ion-batteries-reaches-Alaska-kept-offshore-amid-frantic-battle-extinguish-blaze-crew-fears-explosion.html
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No conversion factor, I'm considering 1kW-hr equivalent to 1 "gallon" in terms of what you're storing in your vehicle and the rate of transfer on different circuits.
120v outlets are rarely dedicated to one device, so most devices on a 20A circuit are designed to only pull 10 amps at most. A car plugged into a 120v circuit will pull 10 amps, about 1200 watts, 1.2 kilowatts, or 1.2 "gallons" in terms of what you're storing in the vehicle.
220v outlets are generally 30 amp and can output 6000-7000 watts. I suppose I undershot my estimate in that context.
I wonder if the current limit is programmable? A 220V outlet can be 15A, 20A, 30A, or 50A, and I think there's a 60A receptacle but I'm not sure; those might need to be hardwired. You wouldn't want the car charging at 30A on a 20A circuit and starting a house fire, or charging at 12 amps when 50 was available (but at least that one is not dangerous.) Also they might need to be derated 20% like a resistive load.
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In normal wiring, the receptacle format is supposed to prevent ever drawing too much from a circuit. And even if that fails, the breaker is supposed to protect the installed wiring.
In my perfect world, electric cars would just use standard NEMA receptacles, and there would be no such thing as a "car charger". All the brains would be inside the car. And you could have any electrician put in a standard receptacle. But that doesn't seem to be the way things have evolved.
My rental manual surprisingly specifically says that a L2 charger is designed for a 40A breaker and draws about 32 amps.
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In normal wiring, the receptacle format is supposed to prevent ever drawing too much from a circuit. And even if that fails, the breaker is supposed to protect the installed wiring.
In my perfect world, electric cars would just use standard NEMA receptacles, and there would be no such thing as a "car charger". All the brains would be inside the car. And you could have any electrician put in a standard receptacle. But that doesn't seem to be the way things have evolved.
My rental manual surprisingly specifically says that a L2 charger is designed for a 40A breaker and draws about 32 amps.
Since there are so many NEMA formats, and all of them are in use for 220V, I wondered how the car's charging circuit knows what plug it has. (good point about the breaker)
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Actual car charger formats have some kind of communication to negotiate the interface, sort of like USB does. It uses PWM over a single control pilot pin, but I don't know the protocol.
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In my perfect world, electric cars would just use standard NEMA receptacles, and there would be no such thing as a "car charger". All the brains would be inside the car. And you could have any electrician put in a standard receptacle. But that doesn't seem to be the way things have evolved.
My rental manual surprisingly specifically says that a L2 charger is designed for a 40A breaker and draws about 32 amps.
A couple of years ago my state passed a new law requiring any new commercial building with more than 'X' parking spaces to install the "infrastructure" (undefined in the law) for 10% of the parking spaces. The don't have to install the charging stations, but they have to install the "infrastructure." Nobody really knows if this means just an empty conduit, or if it means the conduit plus the wires.
But -- the law stipulates Level 2 chargers, so that means a minimum of a 40- or 50-amp breaker for each charging station. So four potential stations means four 40-amp breakers. This has often resulted in the service panel having to be upgraded from a 200-amp panel to a 400, or from 400 amps to 800. It also impacts the size of the transformer, and the service entrance cable from the transformer into the building.
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A couple of years ago my state passed a new law requiring any new commercial building with more than 'X' parking spaces to install the "infrastructure" (undefined in the law) for 10% of the parking spaces. The don't have to install the charging stations, but they have to install the "infrastructure." Nobody really knows if this means just an empty conduit, or if it means the conduit plus the wires.
But -- the law stipulates Level 2 chargers, so that means a minimum of a 40- or 50-amp breaker for each charging station. So four potential stations means four 40-amp breakers. This has often resulted in the service panel having to be upgraded from a 200-amp panel to a 400, or from 400 amps to 800. It also impacts the size of the transformer, and the service entrance cable from the transformer into the building.
That's exactly why they stipulate it though... because it's much harder to put it in later. It reminds me of when a previous work building put in waterless urinals, but the plumbing code required running water lines, stubbing through the drywall, and capping them. So the next building tenant wouldn't have to do major wall surgery to put in normal urinals.
The problem with charging infrastructure is that stuff costs money and nobody has figured out who is supposed to pay. Hopefully businesses will start to view it as an amenity and do it voluntarily, but so far there's not much money to be made because nobody wants to burst the FSA's bubble by charging for electricity what it realistically costs, so no profit, so no charging.
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What would businesses say if we asked them to provide free gasoline pumps? Or a free 5 gallons for customers or employees? I somehow doubt that would be accepted.
I haven't looked. Are a lot of the charging stations free or do they require payment?
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That's exactly why they stipulate it though... because it's much harder to put it in later. It reminds me of when a previous work building put in waterless urinals, but the plumbing code required running water lines, stubbing through the drywall, and capping them. So the next building tenant wouldn't have to do major wall surgery to put in normal urinals.
The problem with charging infrastructure is that stuff costs money and nobody has figured out who is supposed to pay. Hopefully businesses will start to view it as an amenity and do it voluntarily, but so far there's not much money to be made because nobody wants to burst the FSA's bubble by charging for electricity what it realistically costs, so no profit, so no charging.
What kind of *expletive deleted*ing idiot has running water available and puts in those disgusting waterless urinals?
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What would businesses say if we asked them to provide free gasoline pumps? Or a free 5 gallons for customers or employees? I somehow doubt that would be accepted.
I haven't looked. Are a lot of the charging stations free or do they require payment?
Precedent is set in the case of electrical infrastructure. You don't get to decide the amps of your main breaker panel, how many receptacles your interior or exterior will have, etc.
I just ran a dedicated circuit for a "convenience receptacle" near my air conditioner to bring it up to code. GFCI and wet rated, of course. Nobody paid me for it either.
Most of the stations are free or way too cheap. It's like rooftop solar... makes people feel good and doesn't really matter either way as long as it's only a token amount of early adopters are doing it. But widespread adoption would/will have vastly different economics.
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Another thing to think about, what price of gasoline/diesel per gallon would really make you consider limiting how much or how far one will drive.
What price would make you consider a compact car or going hybrid/ev?
Prices being a long term increase, not a 6-18 month spike.
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What would businesses say if we asked them to provide free gasoline pumps? Or a free 5 gallons for customers or employees? I somehow doubt that would be accepted.
I haven't looked. Are a lot of the charging stations free or do they require payment?
The ones at stores usually require payment. At limited access employers it depends on the company.
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The one compatible charger I found so far on my rental trip, was a 7.5kW AC charger, that charged $1 per hour. I calculated that's 13 cents per kWh, basically equal to the metered electricity rates around here. It was in a public park so presumably no profit motive.
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Yeah my understanding is there's two standards for public chargers. The Tesla standard identifies the car and the account associated with it. Initially as Tesla was growing and getting its reputation started, they included charging as a free perk of buying a car but now they charge for charging, an associated credit card to your vehicle ID. Then the non-Tesla charge stations are often operated by 3rd party charge vendors, and rely upon either a smartphone app or a credit card swipe to operate.
I don't think free charging is a thing anywhere any more.
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EVs cost more to repair and customers don't like them. Who knew?
Popular car rental service Hertz announced it will get rid of 20,000 electric vehicles from its fleet because of the high cost of fixing them.
The company decided to sell after discovering the vehicles were more expensive to repair after a collision than gas-powered cars.
“Expenses related to collision and damage, primarily associated with EVs, remained high in the quarter, thereby supporting the company’s decision to initiate the material reduction in the EV fleet,” Hertz said in a statement.
What a Gas! Rental Car Company Does a Fast U-Turn on Switch to EV Fleet (Guess Why)
https://twitchy.com/dougp/2024/01/11/what-a-gas-rental-car-company-does-a-fast-u-turn-on-switch-to-ev-fleet-guess-why-n2391652
End of road for EVs? Hertz to sell 20,000 since customers don't like them - but could you get a good deal buying a cast-off Tesla for $18k?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/cars/article-12951939/hertz-sell-fleet-tesla.html
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What kind of *expletive deleted*ing idiot has running water available and puts in those disgusting waterless urinals?
Someone with anosmia?
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Josh Hawley on who benefits from transitioning to EVs.
https://twitter.com/DanielTurnerPTF/status/1745514979321639072
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Several news stories out this morning about EVs dead in the water because of the cold weather. I found it interesting that everybody focused on Tesla, as if they are the only EVs out there. MDS is almost as bad as TDS. :rofl:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here
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I also noticed the complete and total focus on Teslas having this problem. Elon is enemy #2 now behind Trump
The batteries are too cold to charge. Well with global warming that shouldn't happen!
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https://www.teslarati.com/electric-car-cold-weather-fears/
Meanwhile Norway's AAA reports EVs are underrepresented in rescues.
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https://www.teslarati.com/electric-car-cold-weather-fears/
Meanwhile Norway's AAA reports EVs are underrepresented in rescues.
I wonder what % of those Teslas are garage kept?
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Several news stories out this morning about EVs dead in the water because of the cold weather. I found it interesting that everybody focused on Tesla, as if they are the only EVs out there. MDS is almost as bad as TDS. :rofl:
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here
One expert told the news outlet that cold weather can impact the ability of electric vehicles to charge properly.
"It’s not plug and go. You have to precondition the battery, meaning that you have to get the battery up to the optimal temperature to accept a fast charge," said Mark Bilek of the Chicago Auto Trade Association.One expert told the news outlet that cold weather can impact the ability of electric vehicles to charge properly.
"It’s not plug and go. You have to precondition the battery, meaning that you have to get the battery up to the optimal temperature to accept a fast charge," said Mark Bilek of the Chicago Auto Trade Association.
Maybe they should install electric battery warmers.
Oh ... wait. Oops!
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They've got one: https://insideevs.com/news/328909/tesla-or-gm-who-has-the-best-battery-thermal-management/
Also, most ICE cars in very cold climates have electric heaters installed as well. It's pretty common to plug in your vehicle overnight if temps are expected to be sub-zero.
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Meanwhile thieve are targeting EV charging cables
Thieves target EV charging cables around Minneapolis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9glBiIAPpI
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And I saw something where apparently for some bizarre reasons "Karens" like to go around unplugging people's cars.
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https://the-pipeline.org/time-to-put-team-e-v-on-defense/
tl;dr version is that the EV nazis will not stop trying to take away your ICE vehicles until you hit back at their EVs. To wit:
In the spirit of the emissions mandates and other dictates that have been imposed on legacy auto manufacturers, I might recommend that we impose the following on electric vehicles:
Mandate massive weight reductions in E.V.s by 2030, perhaps an across the board 25 percent reduction from the current “corporate average weight” of the E.V. fleet. There would be punitive taxes and levies for failure to comply.
Mandate an end to dangerous lithium-based batteries by the year 2030.
Ban E.V.s from parking garages due to the risk of runaway thermal fires.
Ban E.V.s from bridges due to their weight.
Assess an annual 4-figure road tax on E.V.s since they don’t pay gasoline road taxes.
Assess a painful “scrapping fee” on the sale of every E.V. since they have such a short life span compared to I.C.E. cars.
In the spirit of cigarette warnings, mandate a giant warning label on the hood of every E.V. advising that foreign slaves and child labor were used to source the rare earth minerals in the car.
Impose a state level E.V. supplemental sales tax that is exactly equal to any federal incentive amount applied to the sale of an E.V.
Mandate petroleum-free tires on E.V.s to ensure the cars are truly net-zero, and that they don’t release toxic emissions.
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I don't think EV's are that much heavier than their competitors these days.
Tesla Model 3: 3800-4000lbs
BMW m340 xdrive: 3988 lbs
Audi S4: 3847lbs
Kona SE EV: 3571 lbs
Kona SR Gas: 3203 lbs
Lucid Air: 5200lbs
Mercedes S-Class: 5000lbs
BMW 760i X-drive: 5917 lbs (!?!)
They seem to be within about a trailer park denizen's weight of their competitors.
You'd be be better off hitting at the anti-energy infrastructure nazis that are going to keep people that could easily use EV's in ICE cars until the bitter (browned out) end. THe answer is EV's where they make sense, and ICE where it makes sense. And just like diesel, you will get some idiots that use a fuel where it doesn't make sense, just because they like the idea of it, and that's OK too.
Side Note: while googling those weights, I discovered that the Hummer EV is slightly more than 5 tons. Which is ridiculous, and makes me thing GM is using a lead acid battery or some *expletive deleted*it.
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THe answer is EV's where they make sense, and ICE where it makes sense. And just like diesel, you will get some idiots that use a fuel where it doesn't make sense, just because they like the idea of it, and that's OK too.
Stop making sense, extremist.
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I don't think EV's are that much heavier than their competitors these days.
Tesla Model 3: 3800-4000lbs
BMW m340 xdrive: 3988 lbs
Audi S4: 3847lbs
Kona SE EV: 3571 lbs
Kona SR Gas: 3203 lbs
Lucid Air: 5200lbs
Mercedes S-Class: 5000lbs
BMW 760i X-drive: 5917 lbs (!?!)
They seem to be within about a trailer park denizen's weight of their competitors.
You'd be be better off hitting at the anti-energy infrastructure nazis that are going to keep people that could easily use EV's in ICE cars until the bitter (browned out) end. THe answer is EV's where they make sense, and ICE where it makes sense. And just like diesel, you will get some idiots that use a fuel where it doesn't make sense, just because they like the idea of it, and that's OK too.
Side Note: while googling those weights, I discovered that the Hummer EV is slightly more than 5 tons. Which is ridiculous, and makes me thing GM is using a lead acid battery or some *expletive deleted*it.
I watched a video about someone's homebrew EV conversion. (His "rolling resume", as he went to work for one of the manufacturer's/.) A EV VW Passant stuffed with enough batteries to give him a ~100mile range (typical for what I see claimed for conversions), weighted about what car+3 extra passengers did. Not horrible.
--edit to add--
This I think: My EV conversion after 10 years and 90k miles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKR8Or6Im6w)
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https://the-pipeline.org/time-to-put-team-e-v-on-defense/
tl;dr version is that the EV nazis will not stop trying to take away your ICE vehicles until you hit back at their EVs. To wit:
This is brilliant!
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The answer is EV's where they make sense, and ICE where it makes sense.
The problem with this is that making sense is not a priority. The priority seems to be:
Phase 1: crush your freedoms
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit! (or something)
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Teslas cutting 10% of it's workforce
Tesla is reporting it first decline in sales in nearly 4 years.
and did any one hear about an arson attack while is mentioned in the article on one of it's factories?
'There is nothing I hate more': How Elon Musk delivered news that 10% of Tesla's global workforce of 140,000 would be axed to keep the EV maker 'lean and hungry for the next growth cycle'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13310433/Elon-Musk-tesla-memo-hate-more.html
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Not the Babylon Bee
Pro tip: Do not update your Teslas's software while sitting in a parking lot in the hot sun.
Then says she was stuck in the car the whole time despite them having manual door handles. :facepalm:
A Tesla owner was left horrified after she got stuck in her Tesla when she tried to update the car's system in a Chic-Fil-A parking lot.
Brianna Janel expected the software update to take 24 minutes but she was trapped inside her vehicle in Costa Mesa, California for close to 40 minutes last month.
She complained it was 103 degrees in the Tesla and was concerned she might run out of air as she was unable to roll down the windows.
Janel posted a video of her ordeal on TikTok where it has been viewed almost 30 million times.
Tesla does have manual door releases which are designed to be used when the vehicle has no power but she decided to wait in case she damaged her car.
Tesla owner left horrified after getting stuck in her car as temperature hits 103 degrees when she tried to update its software in Chick-fil-A parking lot
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13382795/tesla-driver-trapped-updating-cars-software-tiktok.html
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So she was expecting to be trapped in a hot car for only 24 minutes?
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So she was expecting to be trapped in a hot car for only 24 minutes?
It said it would take 4x15 minutes
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Stupid people are stupid, in other news, water is wet.
Actually I suspect she's not stupid, but is a liar, and saw a chance to get TikTok famous and went for it.
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Teslas cutting 10% of it's workforce
Tesla is reporting it first decline in sales in nearly 4 years.
and did any one hear about an arson attack while is mentioned in the article on one of it's factories?
'There is nothing I hate more': How Elon Musk delivered news that 10% of Tesla's global workforce of 140,000 would be axed to keep the EV maker 'lean and hungry for the next growth cycle'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13310433/Elon-Musk-tesla-memo-hate-more.html
Yeah. Nothing says expanding production more than eliminating 10% of the work force.
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Not the Babylon Bee
Pro tip: Do not update your Teslas's software while sitting in a parking lot in the hot sun.
Then says she was stuck in the car the whole time despite them having manual door handles. :facepalm:
Tesla owner left horrified after getting stuck in her car as temperature hits 103 degrees when she tried to update its software in Chick-fil-A parking lot
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13382795/tesla-driver-trapped-updating-cars-software-tiktok.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBMwjpZd0FE
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Stupid people are stupid, in other news, water is wet.
Actually I suspect she's not stupid, but is a liar, and saw a chance to get TikTok famous and went for it.
She saw a chance to get TikTok famous by showing how stupid she is.
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She saw a chance to get TikTok famous by showing how stupid she is.
Yes. That's how Tik Tok works.
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Yes. That's how Tik Tok works.
How the internet works
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Can anyone explain to me how using the manual door release to manually release the door could in any way damage the car?
Just looking at her photo you can see that the two brain cells she has are lonely, and not likely to ever meet up to create a coherent thought.
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Hertz charging a customer $277 refueling fee to put gas into a returned rented Tesla. They do have a recharging fee for $35 but he returned it with a 98% charge the same % as when they rented it to him so it doesn't apply to him. The company is standing their ground saying the refueling service was provided. :facepalm:
Here's Steve Lehto
Gotta Love Hertz!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoVzMRKwXK8
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Lots of stories out there about Hertz ripping off customers. Read one recently where they lost a decent sized corporate contract because of this behavior.
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Lots of stories out there about Hertz ripping off customers. Read one recently where they lost a decent sized corporate contract because of this behavior.
Aren't they the ones (most) guilty of charging customers with car theft when they actually returned the car as agreed?
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Aren't they the ones (most) guilty of charging customers with car theft when they actually returned the car as agreed?
Steve Lehto even brings that up in the video
They reported cars stolen while continuing to rent them out. If a renter got pulled over while driving one and the police checked the tags they were arrested for having a stolen car. Hertz was like sorry about your luck have a nice day.