If this is TRUE?

[280plus]

But you ignore all of it and merely look at the atrocities and condemn all religions.

Not true. I condemn the organizations SURROUNDING those religions. I condemn NO religion. I recognize everyones right to their own. I don't deny that they have also done many good things. I don't deny that there are many good people out there doing many good things in the name of religion and doing it with their hearts in the right place. But I also can't deny that underlying them there have been and still are those that would hide behind those good deeds as a means to some evil intent. Right now in Hartford there's a case where a local preacher had been raping an 11 yo girl regularly for some time. Do I bl;ame the people of that church? Absolutely not. I DO blame the organization that allowed the preacher to gain the trust of this girl AND her parents so that he could achieve his evil ends. I've become cynical over the years Rabbi but not without cause. Is IDPA so important that you would associate yourself with a known wife beater to participate? Not to me. I'll go off and shoot my own IDPA style. I have my own private relationship with God. I do my best to follow his commandments and I believe because I do he (or she) looks after me and so far has done a pretty good job of it. I also believe when my time comes God will have already recognized my shortcomings as a human being and forgive me for them. I don't need to belong to any organization to validate these beliefs. However, I'm sure you're aware of many religious organizations that will tell me my beliefs are false and without strict regard to the organization there is no salvation.

[Perd Hapley]

I condemn NO religion.

Actually, I think you do.  Religions such as Judaism, Christianity, and I believe also Islam, all inherently demand some sort of organization.  Membership in a local church is a requirement for Christians.  Judaism has a priesthood at its very foundation in the law of Moses, and a tradition of synagogues and rabbis (rabbim?) .

 All those things, or at least SOME of the people involved with them most definitely might be evil. Therefore I have nothing to do with any of them. So maybe it's not just RELIGIOUS organizations I disdain. It is ALL organizations.

That's so silly, it needs no further comment.

[280plus]

It may sound silly but it's true...

I tolerate and remain on the outskirts of a couple of organizations because the subject they involve interests me and at the core there are some good people but I can tell you they both have their individuals whose motives are something other than the subject at hand. Whether it be fame, fortune or love just to name a few. The old hidden agenda routine. Believe me it's out there. Who was that old guy with the lantern searching all eternity for the one honest man?

And no I DO NOT condemn ANY religion. you miss my point. I just don't feel or see the need to call myself a Catholic or a Muslim or a Jew or even a Christian nor do I see the need to participate in their rituals in order to validate my beliefs. Hopefully that's not too hard for you to accept. Why can't I worship or have faith in or do my best to honor God without being tied to some organized religious group?

To try to get back to the original subject of the thread. Could we say that POSSIBLY Muslim extremists just plain old don't like us "infidels" and are using God's name to justify their hate and intensify their fervor as well as fill their ranks?

I'll tell you what one of my old, very religious aunts said to me one time, "We can't blame God for all these terrible things. The devil is the one to blame. It's the devil doing these things." ( or something like that anyways). Whether it be Jim Jones, David Koresh, pedophilic priests or Wahabbist Muslims in HER mind it is Satan at work behind the scenes. I agree with her.

[280plus]

Let me put a little disclaimer. In terms of the organizations fist listed, I DO consider the word "evil" to be a bit strong bordering on silly in regards to those organizations, so if that's what he means by "silly" he's right. I was being a teeny bit facetious there, he caught me. However, I don't think comparing DAR or the NRA to any religion is necessarily comparing apples to apples. What I've found in many cases however is that in most organizations there are always the few who'll ruin it for everyone if given half the chance. All it takes is one or two. That doesn't make them "evil" but that's why I steer out of the middle of most organizations.  As far as religious organizations, if they'd stop fighting amongst themselves about whose God is best, who Jerusalem belongs to and show a little LOVE instead it would go a long way with me. It would be a start. But given the original post in this thread, which I just reread, I don't see it happening.

Sorry about the drift Ww...

[Perd Hapley]

 As far as religious organizations, if they'd stop fighting amongst themselves about whose God is best, who Jerusalem belongs to and show a little LOVE instead it would go a long way with me.

So if the monotheistic religions would quit being monotheistic, and conform to your beliefs, they would get your approval?

[Stand_watie]

If you ask me I'd say extreme fanaticism in ANY religion brings out this kind of ferocity. What was that thing, "The Inquisition". Nope, no extremist religious practices there. It amazes me as to how much blood has been shed in the name of "God" throughout human history. It explains my disdain for organized religion.

Then you have something in common with Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, and Joseph Stalin.

Not that I think disdain of organized religion is an equivalent to mass murder or even a primary cause of mass murder, just that some practitioners of disdain of organized religion have been among the greatest perpetrators of mass murder in history. Hitler used organized religion even though he didn't believe in it, so I don't suppose he fits either category.

[280plus]

I'm under the impression we all worship the same one God but in different manners. So, no I'm not promoting polytheism I'm promoting understanding and tolerance between the religions. I would expect that that is something God would appreciate.

In  "The Last of the Mohicans" James Fennimore Cooper makes reference to God as "The Being we all worship, under different names."

The whole line, "Tell them, that the Being we all worship, under different names, will be mindful of their charity; and that the time shall not be distant when we may assemble around his throne without distinction of sex, or rank, or color."

Stand, interesting. Thankfully I don't feel the need to massacre millions of innocent people.

[doczinn]

Then you have something in common with Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, and Joseph Stalin.

That's the most blatant attempt at guilt by association that I've ever seen.

[280plus]

Awww, I think Stand is just yanking my chain a little. It's ok.

[Tallpine]

"Why can't I worship or have faith in or do my best to honor God without being tied to some organized religious group?"

Because they (the leaders, and indoctrinated members, of those organizations) say that you can't, that's why

Otherwise how can they get you to join their group unless they tell you that you are going to hell if you don't...?

[Perd Hapley]

I'm under the impression we all worship the same one God but in different manners. So, no I'm not promoting polytheism I'm promoting understanding and tolerance between the religions.

280, you're a nice guy, and the last one I'd want to argue with.  But how can you run down ALL organized religions and claim to promote understanding?  I think I know what you're trying to say in all this, but you are saying it in a rather offensive manner.

[Werewolf]

You know if someone wants to jine up wit da foke who all pray to Porky Pig then more power to 'em. Live and let live. The problem is the organized religion weenies won't let people just live and let live.

They mostly, from the lowliest adherent to the highest priest, figure it's their gol-darned duty to save me from myself and bring me into their flock and that's when I get ticked.

I don't need no head choppin' imman, nor a boy fondling priest or a whore mongerin' chaplain as a go between between me and the creator of the universe. Leave me the hell alone. If I want to commune with the creator I can do it just fine without the help of the local shaman. When push comes to shove I figure the creator's got more important things to do than worry about humanity let alone little ole me (and the preponderance of evidence considering the sorry state of mankind in general is all the proof I need of that proposition).

280's really got it right. All the god con's out there tryin' to preach, steal, *expletive deleted*ck, murder, con and shout their way into heaven are a large part of what's wrong with humanity. Like I said before in a previous post on this thread  people need reasons to hate each other and they'd kill each other with or without religion. It's just that its so, so very easy to get people to hate when it comes to GOD!

Organized religion is all about power and control and the shamans thereof have known it since the dawn of history. Even religions like Christianity who's foundation was built on the values of a man who said love thy brother, turn the other cheek and all that other impractical BS uses hate and fear to control it's adherents. And not only do they kill people of other religions for having the audacity to pray to a GOD other than theirs they freakin' kill each other and I'm not even gonna bother listing examples there's not enough bandwidth on the entire internet to do that and besides you all know enough examples anyway.

The world would be a way better place without organized religion. It has served it's purpose. Mankind has outgrown the need for it. Unfortunately religion is so ingrained in the psyche of man that it will be around in one form or another as long as there are people to believe in what ever god happens to be the flavor of the day at the time and so there'll always be folks killin' each other in the name of GOD!

Makes me wonder what GOD thinks of all the killin' goin' on his name? Not much if it's a good GOD - probably kicked back with a six pack enjoyin' the show if NOT!

[Perd Hapley]

Werewolf.  Come now.  All that vitriol and slander and you think you have room to complain about "organized religion"?  And after a century of unparalleled mass murder by regimes that hate religion?

[Perd Hapley]

The problem is the organized religion weenies won't let people just live and let live.

As opposed to people like you, who never deride other people's points of view and never argue, rather hatefully, for your own?

No one can reasonably deny that a prime reason for one group attempting to kill another all through mankind's history has been that one group doesn't particularly care for the deity of another.

I can.  Religion is usually an excuse that masks a more practical reason.  You think Bin Laden is really motivated by his desire to serve God and live a holy and just life?  Don't give him that much credit.  Besides that, it is simplistic to caricature religious strife as being based on "not liking the other group's diety."    

When it comes to groups killing each other all that's really necessary to justify it is a reason. Absent religion another reason would be found and there would still be groups of humans killing other groups of humans. One group killing another is what humans do; it's who we are; practice makes perfect and we get lots of that when it comes to killing.

There you go.

[280plus]

I'm not TRYING to say anything offensively, please try not to take it that way.

[Perd Hapley]

Then don't say it that way:

It explains my disdain for organized religion.

I'm not saying religion should be disdained only the organizations that profess them....I want to know how these religions can preach peace and love yet kill each other mercilessly over what are essentially the same beliefs. I'm not sure that's what God wants.

I'm saying all relgious orders have little skeletons in their closets yet they preach peace and love for your fellow man.

I condemn the organizations SURROUNDING those religions.

Sounds to me like you're condemning EVERY church, mosque, coven or other religious group, when you can't really know about all of them.  Don't you think that will inevitably offend people?  

FWIW, if you think that monotheistic religions all teach the same things, you're wrong.  They all have fundamental differences.

[Werewolf]

The problem is the organized religion weenies won't let people just live and let live.

As opposed to people like you, who never deride other people's points of view and never argue, rather hatefully, for your own?

Apples and oranges my friend. We're talking about organized religion not me.

[280plus]

I'm not seeing anything offensive there. I think you're starting to grab at straws now. If what I think and believe offends you there's not much I can do about it. I'm supposed to change my entire way of thinking just so I don't OFFEND you? Homey don't play that...

[Perd Hapley]

Werewolf, as long as you're holding others to a standard that you've no intention of meeting, we ought to talk about you.  You complain that organized religion is intolerant, yet you've got your own blood-libel going on in this thread, painting all religion as some kind of blood-thirsty, power-hungry, con-job.  You think people haven't killed in the name of your kind of skepticism?

[Werewolf]

...all religion as some kind of blood-thirsty, power-hungry, con-job.  You think people haven't killed in the name of your kind of skepticism?

There's lots of reasons people kill. Religion is just one of them - a common one when the killing is done by groups.

Study a bit of anthropology; pay particular attention to the role of religion in primitive societies and how that role has barely changed in the 50,000 or so years man has believed in a supreme being(s). When you've done that - get back to me. We might have something to discuss then but I doubt it since folks who believe in an anthropomorphized deity as most religions insist that their adherents do are already too far gone to deal in logic and reality.

ASIDE: This is exactly the reason why SEX, POLITICS and RELIGION are usually verboten topics among friends and enemies alike. When folks who think with their hearts get together with folks who think with their heads the sparks usually fly.

Werewolf - OUT!

[Stand_watie]

Then you have something in common with Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, and Joseph Stalin.

That's the most blatant attempt at guilt by association that I've ever seen.

Sauce for the goose.

[grampster]

Correct me if I'm wrong.  Nowhere in the Christian New Testament is there a call to murder, terrorize and othewise force anyone to do anything.  Quite the contrary.  Anyone who does murder, terrorize or forces, does not represent the Book.   In fact the counsel in the Book encourages skepticism by calling on folks to "test the spirit" of those they encounter.

The Old Testament is a history book of what was before the Incarnation.  Can't change it.  Don't want to because there is a powerfull message and learning experience regarding how man interacts with man outside Divine Providence.

To characterize the acts of man, post Incarnation, in the clothing of faith has seriously not understood the difference between those of faith and those who pose in the clothing of faith.  One who does that, shortchanges himself regarding many opportunities to grasp wisdom.

[Perd Hapley]

I'm not seeing anything offensive there. I think you're starting to grab at straws now. If what I think and believe offends you there's not much I can do about it. I'm supposed to change my entire way of thinking just so I don't OFFEND you? Homey don't play that...

That's not what I'm asking you to do.  You have expressed a desire not to offend, and claimed that you are spreading "understanding and tolerance."  I am trying to explain to you that you are failing hugely.  In fact, you seem to be going out of your way to offend.  I can tolerate any point of view (OK, certain anarchists have tested my limits) but there are ways of stating it that are more or less offensive.  (I've done that too, see the witch thread.)  But it's worse than that, 280.  In order to be consistent, you have basically rejected the concept of organizing around any set of beliefs or practices.  Guess we'll have to give up this whole nation-state concept then and probably the internet too.

Speaking of things-that-make-no-sense...

Anthropomorphized deities?  Yeah, I'm glad that the Christian God is not like His creatures.  Pity the ancient Greeks, Egyptians, etc.  

 
I guess Werewolf's vituperation makes sense if you don't know much about the world's various religions, or the positive contributions thereof, or if one thinks that humans can or should operate without some set of unprovable assumptions (like Werewolf's bias against anthropomorphic deities), and if one thinks that religion should be treated differently from non-theistic points of view.  I guess if you study a few ancient societies, you can see how their religion was as backward and degraded as their social and political customs, their science, etc.  From there, one might ignorantly conclude that all religion is therefore about "controlling people with fear," or worshipping the Divine Feminine if you're Dan Brown, or some other left-wing angst.  But I prefer to think with my head, instead of my heart.  

[280plus]

Well, if anyone can tell me how to tell the difference between the truly spiritual and the posers I'd be mightily grateful. As opposed to guilt by association Stand, I call it more like complicity by standing by and letting it happen or turning a blind eye to it. When I say I disdain organized religion BTW let's understand I'm talking about the LEADERS of these religions, not the followers. Another thing I should mention is that if I have a beef with ANY religious organization it is the Roman Catholic Church. I'm not crazy about some of the things that have gone on in there over their history, most recently the pedophile stuff. I went to a Catholic HS run by MONKS my freshman year. Knowing what I know now I can look back and tell you some of those guys were as queer as $3 bills. I can site examples of "grooming" going on right from the teacher to the entire class. Fortunately I was kind of an ugly kid and I only spent one year there. Even then at the tender age of 14 I knew SOMETHING was going on there but was too naive to put my finger on it. Then YEARS later some of MY contemporaries come forward to tell us they've been molested by priests? That at least one priest went so far as to tell boys that to give him oral sex was a special sacrament?? And let me tell you, what you've seen on the news is just the tip of the iceberg. Yea, I have a problem with all that. Again, I may be committing some guilt by association thing but not without cause. They've lost my trust and they're going to have a REAL hard time getting it back. I'm not the only one BTW, a fair portion of the "Born Again" Christian movement are lost Catholic souls looking for a home. I just never went that route.

I drag the Jews and the Muslims in there due to their having being going at it with each other AND the Christians for at least hundreds if not THOUSANDS of years with no let up in sight. Sorry if I'm a bit jaded, I mean no offense to anyone.

[280plus]

No fist, I think you are choosing to be offended because you do not agree. I can't help you with that.