Author Topic: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying  (Read 19843 times)

roo_ster

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Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« on: May 14, 2012, 11:06:33 PM »
http://www.cracked.com/video_18398_why-star-trek-universe-secretly-horrifying.html

Yes, all this. 

Plus, they would rather beat the hell outta folks (Ferengi) instead of paying them for information.

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roo_ster

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TommyGunn

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 11:14:02 PM »
 ???

Well, I see a list of 345 comments but otherwise I have no idea whether this is an article or a video....there seems to be a video over to the right, which is playing unrelated stuff, and which has commercial stuff superposed over it.
 =|
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2012, 11:25:31 PM »
I will not click the link, because I am powerless over my addiction to Cracked.com.

So, I gotta ask: How is it in any way secret that the Star Trek universe is utterly horrifying?

roo_ster

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2012, 11:31:57 PM »
I will not click the link, because I am powerless over my addiction to Cracked.com.

So, I gotta ask: How is it in any way secret that the Star Trek universe is utterly horrifying?

First click's free.

Some folks just see all the shiny.
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roo_ster

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TommyGunn

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2012, 11:40:40 PM »
I wish I could figure out why anyone would think ST is secretly horrifying.  ???
I mean, I thought of Klingons, but they're obvious.
Romulans are smarter , more devious and thus more dangerous, IMHO.
The Borg were a bit silly so far as personal confrontations were concerned but the technology was evil, spooky and dangerous.
Roddenberry was thought by some to be a closet socialist.  Some of what he put in Trek might seem to support this....but I think that's over analyzing the matter.

« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 12:06:44 AM by TommyGunn »
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2012, 11:57:42 PM »
I wish I could figure out why anyone would think ST is secretly horrifying.  ???

Well, for starters, remember the Alliance from Firefly/Serenity and the Empire from Star Wars?  Yeah...in Star Trek, they're the good guys.  :facepalm:

And Roddenberry was a closet socialist like Santorum is a closet conservative. 

TommyGunn

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 12:05:59 AM »
Well, for starters, remember the Alliance from Firefly/Serenity and the Empire from Star Wars?  Yeah...in Star Trek, they're the good guys.  :facepalm:

And Roddenberry was a closet socialist like Santorum is a closet conservative. 

The Federation/Starfleet = The Empire  :O .

No.  I don't recall the UFP or Starfleet going around conquering everyone.  Maybe the Mirror Universe version (where I would suppose the Klingons would be the good guys) but not the Federation.
Somebody's doing a spin job.
MOLON LABE   "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero

BridgeRunner

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2012, 12:17:03 AM »
The Federation/Starfleet = The Empire  :O .

No.  I don't recall the UFP or Starfleet going around conquering everyone.  Maybe the Mirror Universe version (where I would suppose the Klingons would be the good guys) but not the Federation.
Somebody's doing a spin job.

Indeed.

Question: When have even a half-dozen nations all peaceably clamored to be subsumed into an external governing body millions, er, uh, thousands of miles away?

Yeah, I didn't think so either.  Firefly/Serenity could easily be retold from the Alliance's perspective, and it would not be about conquest. It would be about exploration, and justice, and delivering the gifts of civilization to the far reaches of the galaxy.

gunsmith

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 01:44:12 AM »
may the force never kick in your door at 4am
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 07:25:17 AM »
Two words: replicated food.
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lee n. field

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 08:45:00 AM »



"Where do they hide the death camps?"
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At thy right hand pleasures for evermore.

MechAg94

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 09:39:39 AM »
Starfleet kind of sucked anyway.  At least in Next Generation, they build these great big battleships, yet as soon as anyone fires at them, their shields drop to dangerously low levels.  Nice battleship that is. 

Also, they apparently have religious convictions about using any weapon that isn't a phaser.  I think weapons are racially biased in that universe. 
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makattak

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 09:51:00 AM »
Also, they apparently have religious convictions about using any weapon that isn't a phaser.  I think weapons are racially biased in that universe. 

My assumption is it is sort of like a Hague Convention statute for them. Disruptors are like expanding bullets. They wouldn't be fair and cause too much pain. (And yes, I believe the reasoning for eschewing either is stupid. It fits perfectly in the Federation mindset.)
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

AJ Dual

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2012, 10:06:17 AM »
Well, to a certain degree, I give the Federation a bit of a pass on some of the aspects that seem like they could be indicators of an Orwellian Socialist state.

The one thing they underplay badly is that the Star Trek universe (at least by Next Generation and afterward) is a largely post-scarcity society, where automation, technology, and matter handling produces unlimited energy, if not for stellar engineering, but at least "unlimited" from the standpoint of an individual humanoid.

It's hard to maintain a completely capitalist economy in the face of that, where energy and durable goods, and basic consumables are produced in any desired quantity at-will. It's the ultimate deflationary scenario one can imagine for any sort of currency or exchange medium.

And there does seem to be some sort of a capitalist economy, where there are still pockets of "scarcity", such as art, hand-cooked gourmet meals/restaurants, or rare historical/archaeological artifacts, and the few materials that for whatever hand-wavium reasons can't be made with replicators, such as Dilithium Crystals for matter/anti-matter energy production and warp drives, or "gold-pressed latinum" the Ferengi were always so fond of.

And to a degree, people still are sort of "capitalist", since material wealth as we'd think of it is mostly meaningless, people start to trade in, or accumulate "mojo" or "respect" or "reputation" as a substitute form of wealth. Such as the afore mentioned artists, or archaeologists who discover rare things, chefs, or scientists who are famous for discovering new things. Or for belonging to an organization with such high standards as Starfleet (presumably) has.

Although I do admit that the show often depicted the 'capitalist' folks as mercenaries with a heart-of-gold at best, and sociopaths at worst most of the time, something I do find disturbing.

And I don't disagree with the other criticisms of the Federation's politics, at least the unseemly realities the superficial utopian outcomes imply. The Prime Directive being the worst of it.

If my planet were dying due to supervolcanism, or imminent asteroid impact etc. and aliens watching us who could have saved us with the push of a button didn't because we were pre-contact?

I'd be kinda pissed.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 10:12:34 AM by AJ Dual »
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2012, 10:38:30 AM »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Perd Hapley

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2012, 02:14:24 PM »
Maybe the Star Trek writers are just lazy. Too lazy to explain why people keep working, when they don't need to. Too lazy to put some privately owned ships in the background. Too lazy to come up with recent works of art for their characters to appreciate.

Or maybe they just assume that the fans don't care about the universe outside of the particular plot that's being portrayed.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2012, 02:57:09 PM »
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html

I've seen that before. Although it still doesn't adequately address the ways a post-scarcity society may have notions about what constitutes 'wealth' turned on it's head.

Presuming basic human motivations for pride and status don't go away in the next 500 years, but they're placed into a post-scarcity society, the results may well look confusing to us.

For instance, do you know why old "country kitchen" style design or other antique styles of kitchen design have a set of copper gelatin molds hung around the room?

Like this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-A3VBGk3Rb1w/To48H1fd8XI/AAAAAAAAALE/U5jQwvRs_hQ/s1600/045-2.jpg

(My mother had the kitchen decorated with a row of these around the room during the 80's...)

That's because originally, those molds were a sign of wealth. It meant your household ate enough meat that you had bones and scraps to boil, or more likely your servants did, to make the gelatin foods.  (Not even dessert flavored, other meat and veggie flavors and served as main courses... yeech)

Of course, industrial gelatin production made possible by the inclusion of meat into everyone's regular diet, and "Jell-O" becoming more of a lowbrow, picnic, or kids-food, this meaning was lost. People in the latter 20th Century started decorating with the molds, just because they looked "old-timey" and didn't know what they originally meant or represented anymore.

If people come to these choices of their own free will in the Star Trek universe, without any coercion by the state, due to the ramifications of a post-scarcity society, trying to judge people's personal, economic, and political freedoms is meaningless in terms of using their living spaces or posessions indicators of individual freedom.

Perhaps an analogy as a gun-collector would help.

If you had a machine that could make you any firearm you wanted and it's ammunition when you felt like handling it or shooting it, and could then dispose of it afterward (back into the machine presumably), would you still want a safe full of guns, except perhaps if they were original antiques? Would you still have cleaning gear? Would you still have crates of ammo? Targets? Spotting scopes? Reloading gear? Or any or all of the other accouterments that go with being a shooter or gun collector?

Worf had his Klingon nerd-sword. Riker the trombone. Picard had books or a fencing foil or something. (and that flute from the dead civilization, who used mind rays in that probe to make Picard live a whole simulated life in their society...) Presumably all family heirlooms that would lose their uniqueness if replicated.  So that stuff is all people carry with them.

I know some people are comforted by "clutter", but (maybe I'm wrong) I think many people like it when their living spaces at least look clean and uncluttered. If you needed no refrigerator, pots, pans, and things like clothing, eating utensils, and toiletries came and went as needed... I think all our living spaces would indeed look a lot more like they do in Star Trek.

Perhaps such a life is a joyless dystopian horror, but I think the critical point is that it does not require, nor does it prove the existence of an authoritarian Socialist or Communist state to make it that way.

Maybe the Star Trek writers are just lazy. Too lazy to explain why people keep working, when they don't need to. Too lazy to put some privately owned ships in the background. Too lazy to come up with recent works of art for their characters to appreciate.

Or maybe they just assume that the fans don't care about the universe outside of the particular plot that's being portrayed.

Of course, that's what the REAL answer is. For instance, the entire "transporter" technology exists because Roddenberry didn't have the budget for enough plywood, paint, and Christmas lights for the shuttlecraft set the first season. So a set was re-purposed as the transporter room, and an optical fade with a glass of water being stirred with craft glitter in it was substituted. Otherwise they'd have no credible way to explain how folks got down to the planets of green women.

But it's boring to discuss it.  =D
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 03:00:58 PM by AJ Dual »
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brimic

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2012, 03:36:05 PM »
I would think that a universe where there were no scarcity would be a place where the human mind isn't wired up for.

We are all biological animals and need to compete by our genetic programming.

Having everything available at any time for replication would be like having enormous wealth- probably even better.

The problem is that people who are enormously wealthy do only a few things:
1. Try to become wealthier.
2. Become decadent/self destructive (especially if the wealth was given to without being earned).
3. Use the wealth to help others- charities, etc.
4. Use the wealth to push boundaries -science, exploration, etc.

If you have eliminated items #1 and #3 (unless I'm missing more categories), it only leaves #2 and #4.
#4 would be showcased in Star Trek, but what of #2?
We've all seen what happens to people who win the big lotteries, I haven't seen one go down path #4 yet.

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mtnbkr

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2012, 03:39:19 PM »
We've all seen what happens to people who win the big lotteries, I haven't seen one go down path #4 yet.
Richard Branson/Virgin?

Or were you specifically speaking about lottery winners?

Chris

brimic

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2012, 03:42:56 PM »
Quote
Richard Branson/Virgin?

I had him specifically in mind in category #4 (edit)
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2012, 03:44:45 PM »
Maybe the Star Trek writers are just lazy. Too lazy to explain why people keep working, when they don't need to. Too lazy to put some privately owned ships in the background. Too lazy to come up with recent works of art for their characters to appreciate.

Or maybe they just assume that the fans don't care about the universe outside of the particular plot that's being portrayed.

Except we know that Roddenberry was a Communist. It's not like it's some big uberconspiracy.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2012, 03:46:15 PM »
I had him specifically in mind in category #4 (edit)

Really?  He seems to put his money where his mouth is when it comes to exploration.  He's done some of the crazy "around the world" stuff in balloons, is working on commercial space travel, etc.  I'm sure he's quite decadent compared to the average joe, but he does try to move transportation forward even if for his own benefit.

And his wealth was earned, not given to him by wealth parents.

Chris

makattak

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2012, 03:47:41 PM »
Really?  He seems to put his money where his mouth is when it comes to exploration.  He's done some of the crazy "around the world" stuff in balloons, is working on commercial space travel, etc.  I'm sure he's quite decadent compared to the average joe, but he does try to move transportation forward even if for his own benefit.

And his wealth was earned, not given to him by wealth parents.

Chris

His #4 was someone trying to push the boundaries of science and technology, not decadence.
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought

mtnbkr

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2012, 03:54:13 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Galactic

Might not be as important as NASA's Muslim outreach, but Virgin is moving us closer to commercial space travel.

NASA thinks there might be something there

Chris

makattak

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Re: Why The Star Trek Universe Is Secretly Horrifying
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2012, 04:00:03 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Galactic

Might not be as important as NASA's Muslim outreach, but Virgin is moving us closer to commercial space travel.

NASA thinks there might be something there

Chris

So you're arguing that Ricahrd Branson is not engaged in decadence, but someone who is pushing the boundaries of science and technology?

Or are you arguing that it is actually #1, and is a good business investment?
I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened.

So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. There are other forces at work in this world, Frodo, besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case, you also were meant to have it. And that is an encouraging thought