Continuing a Heritage and Tradition: That is the cause of Project Appleseed

[CNYCacher]

As far as pyramid scheme...at $70 for two days' instruction, I doubt any real money is being made. 

It is my understanding that they setup shoots wherever someone is willing to host.
10-15 guys at $70 doesn't leave too much after travel expenses.

[AmbulanceDriver]

CNY, you pretty much nailed it on the head.  Plus tack on the fact that women, youth under 21, and active duty military, national guard, and reserve get to attend Appleseed for free, and no, there ain't much money bein' made at all.  Add in all the targets, promotional materials, travel expenses  (if we don't have local instructors), and on and on ad nauseaum, and no, t'ain't nobody gettin' rich from Appleseed. 

Dionysus, we know that the front page has a lot of rhetoric on it.  Fred's Guide to Becoming a Rifleman does as well.  Most of that is from the first few months of Appleseed.  And yeah, some people may have gotten the "overthrow the government" vibe from previous 'Seeds, and the best thing that I can tell you is that Appleseed has grown, evolved, and improved from those first few months.  Myself and several other instructors have also been pushing for us to stop referencing Fred's Guide in our promotional materials for Appleseed, as Fred's website and Appleseed are completely separate entities.  Do we believe that Appleseed can help improve our nation, if nothing else than by teaching people about the sacrifices that were made to form this nation?  Absolutely.  Do we believe that it requires the armed overthrow of our government? ABSOLUTELY NOT. 

And if you would prefer, the standard we teach to is 4MOA to 500 meters.  That is approximately a 20 inch target.  And yes, that is a man sized target.  No, it's not politically correct.  No, it isn't sugar coating it.  Do you ever got to the range and shoot at a silhouette target?  Or even an IPSC/IPDA target?  Those are man sized and man shaped, and the highest scoring areas are the heart and brain!  Does that make you almost a domestic terrorist if you shoot at those targets?  Or IPSC/IPDA almost domestic terrorist organizations? 

And yes, there are references to a "sinking ship".  Tell me, do you think that our nation is in the finest state in its history? 

Sorry if I've gotten a bit confrontational here, but you've taken a few quotes from the website and gotten entirely the wrong picture of what Appleseed is. 

We want to make our nation a better place.  And we believe that we can do so by teaching people the history and heritage that made this nation what it is.  That by reminding them of what sacrifices were made to birth our nation, we hope they make smart decisions at the ballot box, in calling or writing their elected representatives, and in the way they treat their neighbors and their community.  Yeah, it's a lofty goal.  But sometimes you need to have lofty goals in order to accomplish something.

[S. Williamson]

I apologize for my earlier remarks.  I've been in a bad mood all day. 

To butcher an idiom, I guess I couldn't see the fruit for its seeds.  :|  (Truly, take the meaning as far as it will go) If it's really evolved past what it sounds like it is, and holds true to honest things such as genuinely helping people and not sowing seeds of violent revolution, then good for it. 

I have to admit, though, that I wonder why the rhetoric is still there.  It's almost daring the wrong sort of people to take notice--whether they're "JBTs" or "threepers".  After having known FAR too many that fit the latter description above, I have no stomach for more.

Violence-prone idiots who apply Monty Python Logic in solving what they think is wrong with America is going to ruin it for all of us in a hurry.  Please understand that I, for one, don't want another '34 NFA brought on by a modern-day-twit-Clyde-Barrow-wannabe.  The language present, in my opinion, hints and implies enough that a psychopath will take it out of context and, by the end of it all, ruin the credibility of even the most level-headed pro-2A supporter.

Yes, it's just words on a website.  But until someone actually attends and sees it for what it is, words are all a person has to go on.

[CNYCacher]

Yes, it's just words on a website.  But until someone actually attends and sees it for what it is, words are all a person has to go on.

I am hoping to be able to attend the one soon.  I want to invite my brother and father, but some of the language on the website (mostly what was cited already) makes me hesitant to share my enthusiasm with others.

[Nick1911]

My Appleseed event appears to have been rescheduled for April 4-5th.

 

[AmbulanceDriver]

Dionysus, CNY, the reasons you state are exactly why many of the instructors have been pushing for things to be updated, re-written, and in some cases plain ol' expunged.  Unfortunately, things like that DO take time, and the best I or any other instructor can do is encourage you to attend an Appleseed event and see for yourself what is happening there.  Because words on the website are just that, words on a website. 

[Silver Bullet]

Recently attended my first Appleseed Project shoot.

Some observations:

1.  Excellent program.   And what a bargain:  $70 for two days. 

2.  We had four instructors and about 30 students.  Of the 30, probably 1/3 were women.

3.  Almost everybody was shooting a .22 rifle.  And of the .22 rifles, almost all were Ruger 10/22.  It was by far the quietest day at the range I ever had.  You probably didn’t really need hearing protection, although I used mine, as did most folks.

4.  We got the usual one hour history lesson, but I was okay with that because it coincides so closely to why I started buying rifles after 30 years of shooting pistols:  the whole American rifleman concept and tradition.  Appleseed frames it in terms of the Revolutionary War, and I include the RW as a very big part of that tradition, but certainly not the only part.  After all, my first rifle was a lever action.  Let’s not leave out pioneers, the American West, and subsequent wars with American involvement when we honor the American rifleman heritage !

5.  My previous rifle practice had been at a local range shooting off sand bags and a bench.  Here I shot in the offhand (standing), kneeling, sitting, and prone positions.

6.  I learned how to use the sling to greatly add stability.  I bought one when I realized from the Appleseed site that it would be a feature.

7.  Lots of other shooting technique was taught.  I didn’t do a good job of implementing it to any great advantage right away, but it gives me techniques to practice at the local range.

8.  All of our shooting was done at 25 meters.  Proportionately small silhouettes are used to simulate shooting at a target 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards.  That doesn’t give you any experience in windage and trajectories, but I think most folks will probably benefit from having fewer variables to master first.

9.  The format really does accommodate beginners as well as average shooters.  We had a few students show up with rifles they had never shot before.    It’s all very friendly and low-key.  The most rigid aspect of the course is probably the safety precautions.

10.  The list of things to bring on Appleseed’s site is is almost 100%.  I didn’t need to bring a second rifle, but one student did.

A good experience and excellent marksmanship training for those of us who aren’t already marksman, considering the low cost and easy-going format.

[AmbulanceDriver]

Recently attended my first Appleseed Project shoot.

Some observations:

1.  Excellent program.   And what a bargain:  $70 for two days. 

2.  We had four instructors and about 30 students.  Of the 30, probably 1/3 were women.

3.  Almost everybody was shooting a .22 rifle.  And of the .22 rifles, almost all were Ruger 10/22.  It was by far the quietest day at the range I ever had.  You probably didn’t really need hearing protection, although I used mine, as did most folks.

4.  We got the usual one hour history lesson, but I was okay with that because it coincides so closely to why I started buying rifles after 30 years of shooting pistols:  the whole American rifleman concept and tradition.  Appleseed frames it in terms of the Revolutionary War, and I include the RW as a very big part of that tradition, but certainly not the only part.  After all, my first rifle was a lever action.  Let’s not leave out pioneers, the American West, and subsequent wars with American involvement when we honor the American rifleman heritage !

5.  My previous rifle practice had been at a local range shooting off sand bags and a bench.  Here I shot in the offhand (standing), kneeling, sitting, and prone positions.

6.  I learned how to use the sling to greatly add stability.  I bought one when I realized from the Appleseed site that it would be a feature.

7.  Lots of other shooting technique was taught.  I didn’t do a good job of implementing it to any great advantage right away, but it gives me techniques to practice at the local range.

8.  All of our shooting was done at 25 meters.  Proportionately small silhouettes are used to simulate shooting at a target 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards.  That doesn’t give you any experience in windage and trajectories, but I think most folks will probably benefit from having fewer variables to master first.

9.  The format really does accommodate beginners as well as average shooters.  We had a few students show up with rifles they had never shot before.    It’s all very friendly and low-key.  The most rigid aspect of the course is probably the safety precautions.

10.  The list of things to bring on Appleseed’s site is is almost 100%.  I didn’t need to bring a second rifle, but one student did.

A good experience and excellent marksmanship training for those of us who aren’t already marksman, considering the low cost and easy-going format.

So as one of the Appleseed instructors here, I wanted to comment on your experience, especially #8.  You're right in that having fewer variables is a good thing.  The other thing is that, being able to reliably hit a 4moa target at 25m, you now have almost all the techniques to hit 4moa targets at 400 and 500m.  Yes, wind is a huge factor.  As is being able to learn bullet drop so that you can adjust your aim/equipment to hit a target at those varying ranges, as well as range estimation.  However, the three factors that are different when shooting at known distance (adjusting for distance and wind, and how to estimate both those factors) are extremely simple to teach in comparison to hitting that 4moa target.  So when we do have the facilities to offer a known distance component to the Appleseed shoot, we still do 90% of our instruction on the 25m line.  Usually it's after lunch on the second day that we start introducing the known distance component, and that only to those students that are doing pretty well on the 4moa targets at 25m.  Because if you can't do the fundamentals at 25m, it's a waste of the students time to take them over to the known distance component.

But I'm really glad to hear you enjoyed your first 'seed....  :)

[Silver Bullet]

The drills we went through were structured around magazine changes.  The other guy and I who had tube magazine rifles were somewhat out of sync with this format, and we were given separate instructions on when to load for the position transition exercises.

The issue is that magazines were loaded on one step, and the rifles were loaded with the magazines on the next step.  For the most part, I merely had to wait for step 2 to load my tube magazine, but things got more complicated on the drills involving two magazines, one loaded for two rounds and one for eight.  But, I did okay.  The program will accommodate any rifle, apparently, but some more easily than others.

So, the Ruger 10/22 would have been a better choice than my Marlin 60 for the Appleseed shoot, but I think I prefer my 60 for everywhere else due to reasons of cost, accuracy, ease of cleaning, and reported reliability.  Perhaps a better choice would have been a Marlin 795 than my 60.

My lever-action .30-30 would have been more troublesome, partly because of the loading (tube mag with six round capacity) and partly because we shot so much from a prone position.  I can see that every time I would have had to raise or twist the lever-action to clear the lever to cycle the next round, my line of sight to the target would have been disturbed.  Also, at nearly $1 per round, I could buy almost three of the Marlin .22 rifles for the cost of 400 rounds of ammo, which is the main reason I bought the .22 in the first place.

[Silver Bullet]

Well.  I guess my experience with Appleseed has resonated with me far beyond the marksmanship training.  I’m still thinking about it, and it’s still permeating inside.

Something else I’ve taken away from the experience is the dedication of the people involved.  There’s not enough money being made here for anybody to be doing this for the moolah.  They’re doing it because they Believe !  They Believe in the tradition of the American Rifleman.  They Believe in the concept of the Rugged Individualist who can make things and solve problems and is self-reliant.  They Believe in the America that made this country great.  Their Mission seems to be to bring more people on board with that vision.

My instructors were Kool Aid, Wade, RL, and Woody. I believe they were there because they wanted to promote that vision. 

[Silver Bullet]

From http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=3430.20 , “Appleseed Project - National Headquarters - Volunteers Welcome > Appleseed Schedule > After Action Reports > Kool Aid’s Travelogue: "LA to Castle Rock WA or What am I getting myself into??” first post dated Aug 2, 2008.

From Reply #38:

The Characters,
We have a pretty interesting mix in the three of us.
Take one poor preachers son from Nevada, raised on faith and whatever rabbits he could shoot, one well educated European immigrant raised sittin' pretty near the lap of luxury and  one old bush rat raised up in a subsistence lifestyle in Alaska and it sounds like the beginning of a bad adventure movie. The personalities in that crew are extremely different yet seem to compliment each other well.

One of us is an independent long haul Truck Driver, one is a Project Manager for a VERY large and well known computer software company in the Seattle area and the other is a roofer/sheet metal worker that ended up working his way up into a sales and marketing position with a good sized metal roofing company. That mix brings a broad set of skills together in one place that you're not likely to find outside of a Family reunion. But unlike a family reunion we didn't get together for food and reminiscence, we got together for Appleseed.

The Personalities,
The Doer,
We have one in our group with a predominant personality type known as "get it done". Yep, he's a doer. Give him a problem and a pipe wrench and he'll set to work makin' that problem disappear, even if the problem is a very large pile of dirt. This personality type needs very little motivation. All he needs is a place to work and it's "Katy bar the door".
The Planner,
Another fellow in our group has a predominant personality type called "get it right.  This fellow is the guy with the list. He always lookin' at ways to make things a little better. Heck, sometimes he'll see ways to make things a lot better. He'll have a list of objectives, a list of assets, a schedule, a timeline with milestones, a backup plan, a tool kit, spare parts, first-aid, etc. He's the guy that anticipates pitfalls and tries to find acceptable "work arounds".
The Dreamer,
One of us is a dreamer. You'll find him under the Liberty tree munchin' an apple, watchin' the clouds pass overhead. His predominant personality type is known as "get along". He's a good communicator. He's a facilitator. He sees no obstacles, only opportunities. He tries hard to see things from as many points of view as possible, with a view towards acceptable compromise.   He helps the planner envision possibilities and the doer see possible solutions to the small problems that can't be fixed with a pipe wrench. He'll use his skills at negotiation for the good of the whole group.

In every group there will be a mix of the above personality types. The best way to use those talents is to let people be who they are. Don't expect the planner to move a mountain of dirt. If he ever gets it done it will be beautiful, if the glaciers of the next ice age haven't covered it over by then. Don't ask the dreamer to keep a list. It'll probably end up being Hai-ku and then he'll lose it anyway. The doer doesn't "have the time" to sit daydreaming or making a plan that's just gonna change tomorrow anyway.

We all have gifts and talents. We all share some of the traits of the others. We all get on each others nerves.
That we are all able to put our differences aside to work for the good of the Project says a lot for the Mission. Fred says " check your egos at the door" and for the most part we seem to be able to do that.
 
So if you are part of a team, try to identify your own gifts and talents. Understand that with each set of talents comes a set of weaknesses. Do your best to capitalize on the strengths and look for help overcoming the weaknesses. There is no shame in asking for help. What seems impossible for you may be easy for another. Just as what is easy for you may be impossible for another. Try to be understanding and humble.

The Mission is worthy. I believe that there must be some sort of divine intervention to bring three so different people, from such different backgrounds, together to work on a mission with such an abundance of gifts, talents and strengths.

When someone from outside the group is drawn close to see the group and they see the mix working well, they are encouraged to join. Thus the new IITs and the group of folks that want to be IIts. We had ten earn their Riflemans patch. We have ten that want to "join the group" of instructors. A good group attracts good people.

[Sawdust]

Yes, as of a couple months ago.  I have them on my 795.

If you'd like something a bit nicer and more precise, you might try the Williams sights instead.  The TechSights are fine, and do a great job of reproducing the sight picture of an iron sighted battle rifle or AR-15 complete with front sight ears and all... but I think the williams sights are a bit nicer.  The Williams ones with knobs are easier to adjust than the Techsights, which require you to use a tool.  A little bit more expensive though.

Willams are also available for other autoloading rimfires if you have a different rifle you prefer, for which there are no TechSights.

AZ:

I finally bought a 795, and will be picking it up next week (CA waiting period, don'tcha know  :rolleyes:)

Anywho, I wanted to know if the above sight recommendation still holds, or...?

Thanks,

Sawdust