Author Topic: Continuing a Heritage and Tradition: That is the cause of Project Appleseed  (Read 15800 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Um, the fact that the appleseed forums require registration to view, rather than just to post, is irritatiing.

Gimme the URL you get that with.  It might be a link to a private section of the forum... but most of the forum is publicly viewable without logging in.  I just checked now.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

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AmbulanceDriver

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CNY, I just logged out, and can still get to all the public info on Appleseed on the forum there.  Dunno what trouble you're having. 
Are you a cook, or a RIFLEMAN?  Find out at Appleseed!

http://www.appleseedinfo.org

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Fjolnirsson

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I'd really hoped to be going to the shoot nearby this weekend, got the day off for it and everything. But I just can't swing the entry fee. Not really sure how I will afford the books for the local JC next week, but that's another story. So, I am going to see if I can make the April 18-19th shoot.
Hi.

CNYCacher

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Gimme the URL you get that with.  It might be a link to a private section of the forum... but most of the forum is publicly viewable without logging in.  I just checked now.

CNY, I just logged out, and can still get to all the public info on Appleseed on the forum there.  Dunno what trouble you're having. 

That would be this one:

First, I want to build one of those 10/22 rifles I've heard that people put together for these shoots. Need to search for the info - thanks for the reminder.

Sawdust,

Here's a good place to start: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.0


I see now that some areas are public.  Unfortunately, the link I just quoted was my first attempt to get into the forums.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
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AZRedhawk44

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Sawdust,

Here's a good place to start: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=32.0

This link "should" be in a public section of the forum, IMO.  It's under General Category: General Discussion: Liberty Training Rifles--Good for Appleseed AND for your budget!

Here's the text of it, and I'll have a forum mod over there check the permissions.

Quote
As the cost of military surplus and new-production ammunition rises, and while supplies of the same are (at best) unreliable, many Appleseed instructors and attendees have noted a need for a cost-effective means of practicing marksmanship, especially at 25 meters.  To this end, we have conducted extensive research and testing of many currently available products.
The following is a summarization of our findings and experiences in the development of the Ruger 10/22® Liberty Training Rifle.


The Appleseed Program promotes rifle safety and marksmanship, as well as knowledge of Revolutionary War history and grass-roots participation in the political process, especially as this relates to the preservation of the Second Amendment.  Thousands of satisfied Appleseed attendees have proven that the marksmanship principles that the Appleseed Program teaches at 25m translate into accurate shooting at up to 500 yards.

Unfortunately, the rising cost of ammunition has hindered the participation of some Americans in marksmanship activities.  Proficient marksmanship requires regular practice, though not necessarily at full-distance.  Practice at 25 meters, fortunately, does not require a full-power centerfire battle rifle; for this distance, a .22LR rimfire rifle is all that is required.   Moreover, many indoor ranges do not allow the use of full-power rifles, but .22LR rifles are permitted.

There are several accurate and durable .22LR rifles on the market today, but the Ruger 10/22 has proven one of the most successful.  It is both affordable and accurate, and several aftermarket accessories have been shown to make it an ideal platform for a 25m training rifle.  The components listed in this thread should not require any gunsmithing, and little mechanical aptitude is required to install them.  In short, this is a true ‘do-it-yourself’ project.

This should help you build a rifle that can quickly be put into service at an Appleseed, be lent to someone at a local AQT shoot, and be used to practice at 25m (or even use in 25 & 50 yard CMP rifle competitions) - all with cheap .22LR ammunition.  Also, it will give you a valuable tool to use to train new shooters, without subjecting them to the often-intimidating recoil of a full-power main battle rifle.


Which 10/22 should I use to get started?  -- There are a lot of options: rifles, carbines, heavy-barrelled target rifles, even receivers that allow one to build a complete rifle with custom components.  One of the most-popular options for many adult shooters is a 22” barreled rifle from WalMart, available for just over $200.  Small-framed adults and children may prefer the slightly smaller 10/22 Carbine.  Any 10/22 is a good starting point for your Liberty Trainer.

Okay, I’ve got my rifle.  Now what? – The Ruger factory sights are not suited to fine adjustments.  Fortunately, Tech-Sights (http://www.tech-sights.com/) produces several adjustable aperture sights for the 10/22.  These sights allow simple adjustment for windage and elevation (windage adjustment requires the use of an AR-15 sight adjustment tool – also available from Tech-Sights). [For those of you who would like to be able to quickly and easily adjust windage on the Tech-Sight, DPMS offers the Rapidex knob, which replaces the standard, must-use-a-tool A1 windage drum (Part# UR-3981, $9). ]
On the 22 inch barrel rifle, each click of windage or elevation is .8 MOA. For most standard carbine barrels one click = 1 MOA (at least close enough for practical applications).


So why do I want Tech-Sights instead of some other sights? – You’re free to add whatever type of aftermarket sights you like, BUT the sight picture the Tech-Sights give you is very similar to the sight picture of the Springield M1A and the AR-15 rifles.  Since these types of rifles are the ones many shooters use when shooting at full-distance, it just makes sense to use 10/22 sights that replicate the sights of their long-distance rifles.  Plus, they are easier to adjust than many other types of sights are.
Williams are an alternative aperture-type sight, but do not give a sight picture as similar to your main rifle’s as the Tech-Sights do.

How do you take the original front sight off of the barrel? – One of our satisfied shooters says this much better than I can: “I laid the barrel on a piece of 2X4, put the punch on the left side of the sight down on the dovetail part of the front sight blade (not the base) and smacked it with a hammer two or three times.  On my 10/22 the dovetail in the front sight base was a lot larger than the new Tech front sight.  I had to use a center punch to raise up little dimples in the front sight base dovetail to keep the Tech sight from falling out every time I turned the barrel over...  remember to use Locktite on the screws as they will come loose.”
The front sight is actually made to go in and be removed from one side. When installing sights, install from right to left.  When uninstalling(removing) sights, remove from left to right.


What other parts should I add to my Liberty Trainer? –

1) A sling is a tremendous aid to accurate shooting, often improving group size by 50% or more.  If your 10/22 has sling swivels already, you’re ahead of the game.  If not, you need to add a pair.
Most Ruger factory sling swivels will not accommodate aftermarket sling swivels (the holes are a little too narrow).  If you want to add the same sling that you have on your long-distance rifle, you’ll need to add a pair of 1¼ “ sling swivels (like those available from Uncle Mike’s) so that you can mount a US GI 1¼“ web sling.
You may have to use a drill or Dremel tool to widen the sling swivel holes very slightly.  This should be the only time you’ll use a power tool during this project.

2) As it comes from the factory, releasing the 10/22 bolt from the locked-back position is a 2-handed operation, and is especially inconvenient when you’re firing from the prone position.  The good news is, an aftermarket automatic bolt release only casts about $11 and is easy to install.
The CST Auto Bolt Stop (http://www.cstmtech.com) requires the use of specially modified magazines (using non-modified mags in a CST-equipped rifle may potentially damage the mechanism).  Since the goal of this trainer is to get you out to the range (and not into the machine shop), you’ll probably be happier with one of the devices that doesn’t require you to modify your magazines.

3) The 10/22 magazine release is also difficult to manipulate.  Without a doubt, an extended magazine release (the most popular cost about $5-$10) makes magazine changes faster.  If your primary MBR is an M1A, the Bell and Carlson release is very similar in length to that of your MBR.

4) Many shooters report improved performance after installing target triggers in their 10/22 Trainers, and while this is not absolutely necessary, it does provide for improved accuracy due to lightening the trigger pull.



There are quite a few magazines available for the 10/22. Which magazines are the best? -- Butler Creek produces some well-regarded 10 round single-stack magazines which extend about 2 inches below the rifle, allowing a convenient grip for more-rapid magazine changes.  Their Steel Lips magazines have proven to be nearly as durable as Ruger’s factory magazines.  If you’re an M1A shooter, the Butler Creek 25-round magazines can be loaded with 20 rounds to simulate the M1A’s 20 round mags.
A device that allows you to attach 2 or 4 factory 10/22 magazines by their bases is a available from http://www.elmfg.com/store/ruger1022.html#Anchor-45980.

Is there any special modifications that are recommended for my ‘WalMart 10/22’? -- The only real difference between the standard receiver and the WalMart 22" version is that the WalMart receiver is painted both inside and out. This leads to rough operation and early fouling as the oil, powder, and rubbed off paint mix to form glop, (the technical term).  If you strip the paint from the inside, just the top part, where the bolt and bolt handle rub, and polish the area with very fine sandpaper, you’ll find that the bolt is very much slicker to operate. 
The standard black receiver should be fine, as they don't paint the inside of those.

Any other tips on constructing my 10/22 Liberty Trainer? –
1) “I've done a couple of these and in both cases I went back to the OEM Ruger trigger return spring. I found that the lighter Volquartsen spring will occasionally just not quite reset the sear. use the Volquartsen hammer spring, but stick with the factory Ruger trigger return spring.  That's where mine is, with a decent 3-1/2 lb. trigger and 100% trigger reset reliability thus far.”

2) “You might want to consider fully bedding the barrel instead of free floating it.  The 10/22 has a somewhat weak connection point between the barrel and the receiver.   Free floating reportedly can lead to some POA/ POI and warping issues.  On the other had, those who have firmly bedded it report exceptional accuracy gains.  I know this sounds anti-intuitive, but this gun seems to prefer bedding vs. floating.”

I really don’t know how to disassemble my rifle to install these parts – No problem.  There are some valuable resources available at http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/triggerruger1022.htm . As a bonus,
this link (http://www.heypete.com/pete/shooting/rugermag.html) shows you how to disassemble a factory magazine for cleaning.

I’d like an adjustable stock, so shooters of all sizes can use my rifle – Several shooters have recommended 2 adjustable stocks: the Christie Super Stock (http://www.1022central.com/) and the T6 Stock for Ruger 10/22 (http://www.tapco.com/catalog.aspx?id=293).

Now get out to the range!  And take some new shooters with you.



Disclaimer -- RWVA, its members, the Appleseed Program, and the author have no financial interest in any of the companies listed in this post.  Any product endorsement is purely the result of our own satisfaction as consumers.
Many thanks to the RWVA members who contributed to this information (including Atlas Shrug, fordtruck, Hollywood,  Junior Birdman, ken grant, lex, raf, et al).

All the above being said, many of us are discovering that the Marlin 795 actually makes for a better LTR than the Ruger 10/22.  It comes with an extended bolt handle already, a pre-installed bolt hold open and release system that is easier to use than the one on the 10/22, the stick magazines are easier to use for timed magazine transitions than the 10rd ruger rotaries, and the stock mag release is superior to that of the 10/22.  It's also about $75 cheaper.  And, it's nicer for the RSO/LSO staff for line clearing, as the Ruger mags and magwells can be visually deceptive as the day starts feeling a bit long. 
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Marnoot

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Those are no joke!  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_Floppy_Disc

Be careful you don't start an internet meme you'll regret!  :laugh: I've been Zardoz-rolled!

AZRedhawk44

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"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Sawdust

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This link "should" be in a public section of the forum, IMO.  It's under General Category: General Discussion: Liberty Training Rifles--Good for Appleseed AND for your budget!

Here's the text of it, and I'll have a forum mod over there check the permissions.

All the above being said, many of us are discovering that the Marlin 795 actually makes for a better LTR than the Ruger 10/22.  It comes with an extended bolt handle already, a pre-installed bolt hold open and release system that is easier to use than the one on the 10/22, the stick magazines are easier to use for timed magazine transitions than the 10rd ruger rotaries, and the stock mag release is superior to that of the 10/22.  It's also about $75 cheaper.  And, it's nicer for the RSO/LSO staff for line clearing, as the Ruger mags and magwells can be visually deceptive as the day starts feeling a bit long. 

Possible stupid question: Are adjustable-aperature sights available from Tech Sights (work filter is blocking me from getting to Tech Sights website) for the 795?

Sawdust
Retain what's coming in; send off what is retreating.

Well, you going to pull those pistols boy,
or just whistle Dixie?

I'm your huckleberry.

AZRedhawk44

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Possible stupid question: Are adjustable-aperature sights available from Tech Sights (work filter is blocking me from getting to Tech Sights website) for the 795?

Sawdust

Yes, as of a couple months ago.  I have them on my 795.

If you'd like something a bit nicer and more precise, you might try the Williams sights instead.  The TechSights are fine, and do a great job of reproducing the sight picture of an iron sighted battle rifle or AR-15 complete with front sight ears and all... but I think the williams sights are a bit nicer.  The Williams ones with knobs are easier to adjust than the Techsights, which require you to use a tool.  A little bit more expensive though.

Willams are also available for other autoloading rimfires if you have a different rifle you prefer, for which there are no TechSights.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AJ Dual

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I really want to attend one of the WI Appleseeds this year. And I was a little shocked to see the first one this April already sold out! However, for a guy with about 40 guns, who's a little short on ammo and funds, I'm having a hard time deciding what I would take to the shoot. (And aside from trap shooting, I am most definitely a "cook", with too many guns, and not enough ammo/range-time under his belt.)

I'm conflicted about what to bring. I might barely have enough 5.56 on hand to use my AR-15, and even then, it's a mix of WWB, reloads, milsurp etc. And it would leave me tapped out for .223 for the foreseeable future, there's not going to be $400-500 in the family budget to buy a 1k case of 5.56 to replenish my store.  Plus it's got a 1-7 twist barrel, (I knew nothing about those issues back in '96 when I bought it) which is best with heavy weight 5.56 and all my stock is just 55gr ball. At 25 or 100 yards I wouldn't worry much, but at the final long 400 yard range or whatever the course of fire is, I'd think overstabilization would leave me all over the map. Plus, if I actually managed to get in range-time beforehand with it to do some of the practice recommended, I would not have enough 5.56 left, and buying more would put it out of my budget for discretionary hobby/fun things. If I were a batchelor, I could ditch cable TV and a host of things, but I'm not. And little girls are expensive.

(Or am I understanding it wrong, and it's a simulated 400 yards with smaller scale targets?)

Plus, either the Lodi or the shoot near Green Bay are going to have decent gas/travel from Milwaukee. And unless I'm allowed to camp at the gun range, a hotel/motel will probably be required too. I'd rather camp, especially if I knew a few WI APS'ers are going, or I can get friends from other boards to go.

If I shot my Ruger 10/22 it would be much more economical, but the only close manual of arms would be my M1 Carbine. That AR is my "go to" rifle. And for what I normally use my 10/22 for, I don't think I want to put Tech Sights on it. Or make a ton of modifications to it. I'd want another 10/22 or the other .22's mentioned here to dedicate to having those mods, and then I might as well buy the .223. for my AR.

Am I over-thinking this? Are the recommendations just the best practice ideal, and "run what ya' brung" is okay and the Appleseed shoot is still very worthwhile?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 01:07:34 PM by AJ Dual »
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AZRedhawk44

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Am I over-thinking this? Are the recommendations just the best practice ideal, and "run what ya' brung" is okay and the Appleseed shoot is still very worthwhile?


Yep.  Shut up and shoot! =D

Bring your 10/22.  It'll work just fine.  I just watched a 17 year old shoot Rifleman with a borrowed 10/22 and the flush rotary mags this weekend.  He shot better than the guys with AR's and oodles of Wolf .223 to burn.  He's likely to translate those skills to centerfire more easily.

Frankly, between hammer time and longer dwell time in the barrel, a .22 rimfire is a better position trainer rifle than a centerfire.  Makes you follow through more consistently.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

AJ Dual

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Yep.  Shut up and shoot! =D

Bring your 10/22.  It'll work just fine.  I just watched a 17 year old shoot Rifleman with a borrowed 10/22 and the flush rotary mags this weekend.  He shot better than the guys with AR's and oodles of Wolf .223 to burn.  He's likely to translate those skills to centerfire more easily.

Frankly, between hammer time and longer dwell time in the barrel, a .22 rimfire is a better position trainer rifle than a centerfire.  Makes you follow through more consistently.

Although.... Thinking about this as a husband strategically, I mean...  =D If It's a few months away, and I tell Mrs. Dual ahead of time and we budget in advance, scrounging up enough .223 might be do-able. I notice one of the WI shoots is at a small village near the Green Bay area that has a 500 yard range. Maybe even a few boxes of some heavy-weight stuff to take advantage of the 1/7 twist on my Colt Lightweight Match.
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Sawdust

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Yes, as of a couple months ago.  I have them on my 795.

If you'd like something a bit nicer and more precise, you might try the Williams sights instead.  The TechSights are fine, and do a great job of reproducing the sight picture of an iron sighted battle rifle or AR-15 complete with front sight ears and all... but I think the williams sights are a bit nicer.  The Williams ones with knobs are easier to adjust than the Techsights, which require you to use a tool.  A little bit more expensive though.

Willams are also available for other autoloading rimfires if you have a different rifle you prefer, for which there are no TechSights.

Cool beans - thanks for all of the help.

I really don't have a .22 preference - never have owned one. But, I've wanted to buy one for plinking and introducing newbies to firearms, and also pick one that would be appropriate for an Appleseed shoot. So, just trying to figure it all out.

Sawdust
Retain what's coming in; send off what is retreating.

Well, you going to pull those pistols boy,
or just whistle Dixie?

I'm your huckleberry.

Nick1911

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I'll be taking a 10/22, with bull barrel and a 3x scope.

I understand that open sights are much preferred, but I'm not interested in buying another 10/22 or installing a front sight on mine.  :|

AZRedhawk44

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I'll be taking a 10/22, with bull barrel and a 3x scope.

I understand that open sights are much preferred, but I'm not interested in buying another 10/22 or installing a front sight on mine.  :|

NBD.  The key ingredient is to have some sort of sighting apparatus that allows for scientific adjustment of the sights.  Scopes, red dots, aperture sights... all good.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Nick1911

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NBD.  The key ingredient is to have some sort of sighting apparatus that allows for scientific adjustment of the sights.  Scopes, red dots, aperture sights... all good.

Thanks, that's good to know. 

Additionally, I found out that we're suppose to get 3 inches of snow during the course.   :O  I'll pack some WD40...

AJ Dual

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NBD.  The key ingredient is to have some sort of sighting apparatus that allows for scientific adjustment of the sights.  Scopes, red dots, aperture sights... all good.

That's good to know.

I've got a friend I'm hoping will go with me, and IIRC, his only centerfire rifle is a Bushmaster M17 bullpup.  I saw the pics on the Appleseed site of people on the line with EOTechs, Aimpoints on AR's etc. and figured they were just co-witnessing or looking through with them turned off, and didn't remove them because they didn't want to lose zero.

A bullpup is going to give him issues with some of the positions, and mag changes, and sling useage etc. as is, but it's pretty much a complete non-starter without some kind of an optic.
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The vast majority of the men that assembled on April 19, 1775 met the definition of a Rifleman.

The oracle of Wiki difffers:
"During this part of the march, the colonists had fought where possible in large ordered formations (using short-range, smoothbore muskets only) at least eight times. This is contrary to the widely-held myth of scattered individuals firing with longer-range rifles from behind walls and fences, although scattered fire had also occurred, and would be a useful American tactic later in the war. Nobody at Lexington or Concord—indeed, anywhere along the Battle Road or later at Bunker Hill—had a rifle, according to the historical records"
From:

Fischer, David Hackett (1994). Paul Revere's Ride. Oxford University Press US. ISBN 0-19-508847-6.

http://books.google.com/books?id=knC-kTFI9_gC&printsec=frontcover#PPA161,M1

P. 161 of this book, FWIW.


AZRedhawk44

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The oracle of Wiki difffers:
"During this part of the march, the colonists had fought where possible in large ordered formations (using short-range, smoothbore muskets only) at least eight times. This is contrary to the widely-held myth of scattered individuals firing with longer-range rifles from behind walls and fences, although scattered fire had also occurred, and would be a useful American tactic later in the war. Nobody at Lexington or Concord—indeed, anywhere along the Battle Road or later at Bunker Hill—had a rifle, according to the historical records"
From:

Fischer, David Hackett (1994). Paul Revere's Ride. Oxford University Press US. ISBN 0-19-508847-6.

http://books.google.com/books?id=knC-kTFI9_gC&printsec=frontcover#PPA161,M1

P. 161 of this book, FWIW.



I have that book.  I've read it.

No one is implying that all colonials could make 250 yard headshots with smoothbores.

Hitting the torso of a man at 75 yards is a challenge with a smoothbore and poor-fitting ball.  If you take the time to swage your smoothbore and get ball cast to size, it helps.  Some men did this.  Others drilled to know the limits of their muskets.  And they engaged within the boundaries of those limits.

But in comparison to the British, who did not even have a command for "aim," (they used ready-present-fire instead), the colonials knew very well what to do with the front sight.

One man whom I believe DID have a rifle that day, or at least a very high quality smoothbore, was Hezekiah Wyman.  He was involved in two actions against the British on Battle Road.  He aided David Lansom and a group of elderly gents in the ambush and seizure of a powder resupply convoy sent out by Gage from Boston, then later on in the day he stood alone on the road as the British army marched back to Boston.  Far outside of British musket range, he would stop and dismount from his mottled grey (pale) horse with his long white hair loose blowing in the wind under his hat.  He would calmly take aim, and fire at the advancing line.  A man would drop.  Wyman would reload calmly and repeat the operation 2-3 times until the British started to approach conventional musket range, at which point he would mount up on his horse and gallop another couple hundred yards ahead to repeat the process.  He earned the nickname DEATH from the British historians of the day.

But yes, most of the fighting was 60 yards or less.

There was a rifle company formed not long after the events of April 19th... Morgan's Rifle Company.  To be a member you had to make a 250 yard headshot on an officer.

Quote
The vast majority of the men that assembled on April 19, 1775 met the definition of a Rifleman.

Very true.  Carlos Hathcock would be hard pressed to hit more than 250 yards away with a smoothbore.

A Rifleman, though possibly limited by his technology, maximizes his effect with the tools at hand.  We like to say at Appleseed that a good rifleman can get off 10 well aimed shots very easily in less than a minute.  Does that mean none of the colonials were riflemen by our standards?  Not at all.  I'd rather see 2 on-target hits with a smoothbore frontstuffer in a minute than 20 holes surrounding the target but not hitting it.

You can choose to nitpick at the program, or you can head on out and experience it and have some first hand knowledge.

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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You can choose to nitpick at the program, or you can head on out and experience it and have some first hand knowledge.
Nitpick. It's easier.  :laugh:

I have two objections: One, Appleseeds are held hours and hours and hours away from my location. Two, I detect an undercurrent of "come here to learn how you can overthrow the government." Maybe it's just my suspicious nature, but that's what I connect with this Revolutionary War/Minuteman business.

Gewehr98

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My understanding is they're trying to distance themselves from that stereotype, Savalas.

If you read the threads in the Appleseed forums at all, you'll see that they're putting room between themselves and Fred's Shotgun News blatherings, even though Appleseed is (was?) his brainchild. As I stated before, the Cook vs. Rifleman comparison is particularly irksome to me, but that's my background getting in the way.  Everybody wants to be the scout/sniper, nobody wants to be the REMF, even though they all are part of the same team. They could probably do without it.

I have my own issues with the program, namely that it isn't the One True Sword, and that when one is heavily vested in any of the other get-out-and-shoot programs, they shouldn't be shouting others down.  Peaceful co-existence and all that.

Regardless, it is very much a get-out-and-shoot program.  On that merit alone, it's probably a Good Thing®. 

 
"Bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round...

http://neuralmisfires.blogspot.com

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roo_ster

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Nitpick. It's easier.  :laugh:

I have two objections: One, Appleseeds are held hours and hours and hours away from my location. Two, I detect an undercurrent of "come here to learn how you can overthrow the government." Maybe it's just my suspicious nature, but that's what I connect with this Revolutionary War/Minuteman business.

I did an AAR back in 2007 or so on teh Appleseed I attended:
http://thehighroad.us/showthread.php?p=3887877&highlight=appleseed#post3887877

I address this very issue.

I am not a member of the RWVA.



Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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Antibubba

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Two, I detect an undercurrent of "come here to learn how you can overthrow the government."

Nothing could be further from the truth!  How do I explain this?

There are 2 parts to Appleseed--the history part and the shooting part.  I'll start with the history part.  I won't go over the events of April 19, 1775, because you can read about it elsewhere, by people who know it better.  But here is the key point:  I'd never heard it before.  Twenty five years out of high school, many years of college, and I'd never learned about the events that started the Revolutionary War.  It isn't a required subject--I think we spent a week on it in one of my high school classes.  At some point, that part of history became unimportant to teach--at least, in the eyes of those who make the curriculum.  We also learn that we were perhaps the first to successfully revolt and gain our freedom, and that we did it against the strongest military in the world at that time.

The shooting part takes a lot more time, but I learned so much.  I mainly learned how little I knew about accurate shooting.    Firearms did not exist in my family, and I may be the first person in my family, on both sides, to pick up a firearm, since gunpowder was invented (with the exception of 2 GGFs who died fighting for the Kaiser).  I had to teach myself about firearms, and I had a terrible teacher  =( .  Most of what I learned, I read.  But 60+ years ago, it wouldn't have been this way; I could have learned safe firearms handling in the Boy Scouts, on the school rifle team, or from one of the other kids in my neighborhood.  Rifles were common.  Again, this is something that was pretty much history when I was growing up.

The goal of Appleseed, on the surface, is to make everyone who comes out a Rifleman (or Riflewoman).  This isn't just the ability to hit a little target, but to handle a rifle safely, to know when the Riflemen were born, and to turn around and introduce someone else to Appleseed.  We want Americans to know their heritage, to understand that our nation was created in the face of overwhelming military might by brave men and women risking everything they had, and who sent the Regulars running back to Boston.   The "Gun Culture", as it is derisively called, is a minority today.  If we're able to reach out and create millions of men, women, and children who are comfortable around guns and shooting, then the issues surrounding guns will start to fade.

If we're revolutionaries, the fight is against ignorance and fear.

Quote
the Cook vs. Rifleman comparison is particularly irksome to me, but that's my background getting in the way.  Everybody wants to be the scout/sniper, nobody wants to be the REMF, even though they all are part of the same team. 

Don't worry about that--if I ever make Rifleman it'll be after attending many, many shoots.  If.  But I'm happy to be a "cook" in the grand scheme of things, and do a lot of the other work, like attending gun shows and papering the city.  But  I think the emphasis on making Rifleman is a good one; after all, who wants to be a bad shot?

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Several quotes that stand out as... odd:

From their front page:
Quote
...together we can save this great land.
Quote
...unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom.  But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country.

Their whole history about April 19th is about the beginning of armed American rebellion.

Others:
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But more than that, the veterans of the Revolutionary War want you to understand the necessity of teaching others to shoot. We want you to be able to go back home and get others shooting "for God and Country," as they say.
(all above emphasis mine)

Several references are made to a "sinking ship."

Sounds really, really close to all the "second American Revolution" rhetoric that loons spout.  All that's needed is one or two specific statements, and before you know it, it's a domestic terrorist organization.  The allure is there.  The rhetoric is a hair's breadth from there.  And they make their intentions plain--to hit a "Man-Sized" target.  And their recruiting methods sound a hell of a lot like a pyramid scheme.

Screw it.  Better to be a "cook" than a loon. At least a "cook" retains credibility when pursuing the correct, diplomatic course of action.

If I want to learn to shoot, I want it without any extra BS from fearmongerers.
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roo_ster

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Several quotes that stand out as... odd:

From their front page:
Their whole history about April 19th is about the beginning of armed American rebellion.

Others:  (all above emphasis mine)

Several references are made to a "sinking ship."

Sounds really, really close to all the "second American Revolution" rhetoric that loons spout.  All that's needed is one or two specific statements, and before you know it, it's a domestic terrorist organization.  The allure is there.  The rhetoric is a hair's breadth from there.  And they make their intentions plain--to hit a "Man-Sized" target.  And their recruiting methods sound a hell of a lot like a pyramid scheme.

Screw it.  Better to be a "cook" than a loon. At least a "cook" retains credibility when pursuing the correct, diplomatic course of action.

If I want to learn to shoot, I want it without any extra BS from fearmongerers.

Boy, you really are impervious to fact once you get your mind made up.  Probably best you don't go, as I think taking instruction might be frustrating for both trainer and trainee.  I'm sure there's nothing they could teach you you don't already "know."

Especially if you hold them in contempt, as your post would indicate.

Again, I am not a member of RWVA, I just attended the NOV2007 Appleseed in Davilla, TX and have actually observed the Appleseed folk in action.

As far as pyramid scheme...at $70 for two days' instruction, I doubt any real money is being made.  Front Sight it ain't.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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