Author Topic: Sandy Hook Question  (Read 7873 times)

MillCreek

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 12:56:59 PM »
No, schools are generally too large to secure with the first few responding officers. Best thing to do is actively search for the shooter and neutralize him ASAP.



A couple of the folks in my bicycle club are deputies for the County Sheriff.  They said that after Columbine, doctrine has generally changed such that the first police responders enter the building immediately and start searching for the shooter, even if the first to arrive enters the building solo.  They said this is how they currently train. 
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Boomhauer

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2013, 01:14:45 PM »
A couple of the folks in my bicycle club are deputies for the County Sheriff.  They said that after Columbine, doctrine has generally changed such that the first police responders enter the building immediately and start searching for the shooter, even if the first to arrive enters the building solo.  They said this is how they currently train.

Thats what I said in my first post. You dont set up a perimeter, wait in cover, etc. You actively hunt the shooter.
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French G.

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 03:04:19 PM »
I highly doubt any cop was waiting outside of the school. Active shooter doctrine is to enter structure ASAP even alone and try to engage the shooter ASAP.

20 minutes goes by DAMN fast when you are the responder. Someone had to call 911, how long was the shooter actively shooting before that call was able to be made? Then 911 Dispatch has to communicate with the caller, find out what is going on (and understandably the caller in the situation is likely to be completely hysterical and unintelligable, I haven't listened to any 911 tapes from this one) and dispatch emergency responders. Then the cops respond to the 911 dispatch, which also might take some time considering traffic and how far away they are from the school.

Rolling up on the school you unlock your rifle from the rack and throw your plate carrier on and grab your active shooter bag or chest rig if you had the foresight to have one and move up to the school. Now to get in. Remember that modern schools lock their exterior doors except for the main entrance to try to prevent unauthorized persons entering the building, and IIRC Sandy Hook had the main entrance locked and someone letting people in, which is where the shooter made his entrance. So depending on where the first officers made their entrance, they could have had to force entry, which takes time, and more time if you don't practice such skills on a frequent basis.

Then it's a matter of clearing a school, which is a HUGE place, which screaming kids and staff and trying to find and neutralize the shooter. The reports I'm hearing say approx 15 mins elapsed between the time the 911 call was placed and the shooter selfDarwinated after facing the police which I don't see how that time could be really reduced in such a situation.

How could the time be reduced? School Resource Officer or armed staff, that's how. Every time this stuff happens we see police all togged out in war gear. I'm ecstatic to see a patrol officer in normal dress with a rifle, or in plainclothes which we saw one of. But when I see the dressed up and waiting team, I know they got dressed first. And there were plenty of waiters at VA Tech were there not? Not all the blame is to the police. Response plans? Why does every cop in town not have the means whether hard or electronic key to open the school I know some people have zero use for cops and while I'm not there, my number is low. I'd much rather have a cop in my town guarding a few hundred kids than writing parking tickets.

Back on the time, you don't clear the school, you head towards the gunshots. Quickly. If we all do this, eventually first responder will shoot first responder, first responder will lose vs. gunman, etc. and then we can all have a great bloddy newsday, but the overall toll and the perverse incentive to carry out mass shootings will be much lower.
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TechMan

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 04:16:43 PM »
How could the time be reduced? School Resource Officer or armed staff, that's how. Every time this stuff happens we see police all togged out in war gear. I'm ecstatic to see a patrol officer in normal dress with a rifle, or in plainclothes which we saw one of. But when I see the dressed up and waiting team, I know they got dressed first. And there were plenty of waiters at VA Tech were there not? Not all the blame is to the police. Response plans? Why does every cop in town not have the means whether hard or electronic key to open the school I know some people have zero use for cops and while I'm not there, my number is low. I'd much rather have a cop in my town guarding a few hundred kids than writing parking tickets.

Back on the time, you don't clear the school, you head towards the gunshots. Quickly. If we all do this, eventually first responder will shoot first responder, first responder will lose vs. gunman, etc. and then we can all have a great bloddy newsday, but the overall toll and the perverse incentive to carry out mass shootings will be much lower.

I know in my experience that most new schools in our area have a Knox Box at the main door.  Now I don't know if just the FD has the key or if the PD has one as well.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2013, 04:56:21 PM »
How could the time be reduced? School Resource Officer or armed staff, that's how. Every time this stuff happens we see police all togged out in war gear. I'm ecstatic to see a patrol officer in normal dress with a rifle, or in plainclothes which we saw one of. But when I see the dressed up and waiting team, I know they got dressed first. And there were plenty of waiters at VA Tech were there not? Not all the blame is to the police. Response plans? Why does every cop in town not have the means whether hard or electronic key to open the school I know some people have zero use for cops and while I'm not there, my number is low. I'd much rather have a cop in my town guarding a few hundred kids than writing parking tickets.

Back on the time, you don't clear the school, you head towards the gunshots. Quickly. If we all do this, eventually first responder will shoot first responder, first responder will lose vs. gunman, etc. and then we can all have a great bloddy newsday, but the overall toll and the perverse incentive to carry out mass shootings will be much lower.

I worked campus security for my university for 3 years, as a shift supervisor for 2 of them.

Our university was not going to just give out keys to our buildings, our datacenters, our scientific equipment, our students' living quarters, and so on, to every cop on payroll in the city of Tacoma.

Our security staff had access to every door in the University, no exceptions, and it took a key ring with about 35-40 keys on it to accomplish the job.  There was no "master" key.

Our security office had a trap on any "911" call placed on campus from one of our phones.  It still went to TPD, but a computer in our office instantly alerted us to the exact location of it and our dispatcher and shift supervisor both had live TPD radios and callsigns on police band (Tacoma North) to coordinate necessary response to whatever was going on.  Typically that was just handing over the appropriate master key for that building in the event of forceful police presence being necessary, or we would arrive about 3-5 minutes before EMS in the event of an OD/alcohol poisoning/attempted suicide (yuck) call and one team would begin first aid while the other team guided EMS to the victim.


We had no trap on cell-based "911" calls and had to monitor the police scanner in the event there was a 911 call place on a non-university line that was dispatched to the university.  TPD dispatch would call us and alert us as part of their response in those cases, to coordinate access and get someone on scene ASAP.

That's just one small university with less than 3000 students.

Now add to that every public K-12 institution and any other colleges, from community colleges to trade schools to shopping malls to mega-state universities.

That's a lot of access to coordinate for 1 police department.  There's no way they could have all those keys lined up.  They have to work with whatever assets are on the site to gain access.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2013, 04:59:55 PM »
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Why does every cop in town not have the means whether hard or electronic key to open the school

Another thought on this...



http://www.skdtac.com/CTS-2570-2575-12-ga-Door-Breaching-Round-p/cts.103.htm

A cop with a Rem870 and a handful of breaching rounds has a master key to just about anywhere he needs to get to, and as long as he only loads one breacher at a time, he's got a forceful long gun to take down an active shooter upon arrival at the confrontation.

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TechMan

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2013, 07:36:37 PM »
When I worked at Cincinnati Public Schools, we had 8 grand master keys that opened every door in the district.  My employees carried 5 or 6 of the grand masters.  AFAIK we didn't share them with the police.
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French G.

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 11:49:36 PM »
Well, I was thinking a crowbar, but I suppose breaching rounds will do. Smaller school campuses without on-site security ought to have someone outside the system who can open the door even if it is just local PD shift supervisors who have access codes.

And it'd be a lot easier for cops to access the building if schools trianed staff and kids the correct way for active shooters. Open everything that opens, GTFO, run like hell. ONce the entire cavalry shows up they can round up anything that looks school age and get accountability. You could let a kindergarten run across 4 lanes of traffic and get less casualties than huddling in the corner.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2013, 02:04:31 AM »
"Access codes"?

The Sandy Hook School was built in the 1950s. I very much doubt there were any "access codes." More likely a front door key that's so old you can't even find blanks to make a new copy. (Yeah, we had that happen at the town hall I worked in for awhile.)
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seeker_two

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2013, 08:02:59 AM »
One thing to consider.....did the responding officers actually follow protocol & go inside immediately or did they stage before entering?
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Boomhauer

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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2013, 10:42:57 AM »
Well, I was thinking a crowbar, but I suppose breaching rounds will do. Smaller school campuses without on-site security ought to have someone outside the system who can open the door even if it is just local PD shift supervisors who have access codes.

And it'd be a lot easier for cops to access the building if schools trianed staff and kids the correct way for active shooters. Open everything that opens, GTFO, run like hell. ONce the entire cavalry shows up they can round up anything that looks school age and get accountability. You could let a kindergarten run across 4 lanes of traffic and get less casualties than huddling in the corner.

Thats another problem. LE trains for active shooters in school buildings but they dont train with the students or most staff.

Yet they hold fire and other disaster drills all the time.
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Re: Sandy Hook Question
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2013, 12:13:31 PM »
The point has been made by some about the fire drills we hold vs. number of students who have died in school fires. About zero in the last 50 years. Even here in BFEistan the local PD wants to do active shooter training, but in the summer with no one there.
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