Public Sex (Of Any Kind) Now Legal ; But Horn Dogs Must Be Leashed

[Manedwolf]

I guess I know what the Dutch mean now when they say that Muslims "don't fit in" with Dutch culture?

Hopefully the increasingly large percentage of Muslims and people from Muslim societies in the electorate will help to counterbalance this extreme form of liberalism.  Apparently on the topic of modesty the Dutch have something valuable to learn from their immigrants.

Actually, I have heard from a few different sources that some Muslim countries have a rather large number of underground homosexual men.  Not sure if that translates to Muslims in Western countries. 

Every country does.  But certainly public sex (of any kind) is not on the table in these places-it's not even part of the debate, for a whole host of very good reasons.

But by and large the myth of the gay muslim subculture is hyped-it's a tantalizing story of hypocrisy that finds receptive audiences, not a factual matter.

Hamas and Fatah had a thing going where they were making public accusations of the leaders of the other group being gay in public.

It was amusing. Was like a terrorist version of when kids argue on online FPS, especially xbox.

"UR GAY!"
"NO U!"
"GAY!!!!111"
"LOL UR GAY!"

[Strings]

>Strings:  Ever read the Bible?  Stoning isn't exactly enjoyable, you know.<

 WOW... the Bible says gays are an abomination and should be destroyed, so they've been persecuted for thousands of years!

 Newsflash: the Bible in any form has only held sway in western civilization for roughly 1700 years. As for the rest of the world, there are lots of places where it still DOESN'T have much traction. So it hardly amounts to "gays have been persecuted for thousands of years"...

[De Selby]

I guess I know what the Dutch mean now when they say that Muslims "don't fit in" with Dutch culture?

Hopefully the increasingly large percentage of Muslims and people from Muslim societies in the electorate will help to counterbalance this extreme form of liberalism.  Apparently on the topic of modesty the Dutch have something valuable to learn from their immigrants.

Actually, I have heard from a few different sources that some Muslim countries have a rather large number of underground homosexual men.  Not sure if that translates to Muslims in Western countries. 

Every country does.  But certainly public sex (of any kind) is not on the table in these places-it's not even part of the debate, for a whole host of very good reasons.

But by and large the myth of the gay muslim subculture is hyped-it's a tantalizing story of hypocrisy that finds receptive audiences, not a factual matter.

Hamas and Fatah had a thing going where they were making public accusations of the leaders of the other group being gay in public.

It was amusing. Was like a terrorist version of when kids argue on online FPS, especially xbox.

"UR GAY!"
"NO U!"
"GAY!!!!111"
"LOL UR GAY!"

I didn't catch that one-hard to, since almost 100 percent of the inter-Palestinian arguments is not translated into English.

You make a good point though.  In their country, the debate is about who is doing these things in public because that is a bad thing. 

In Holland, the debate isn't about who is gay, it's about whether or not they should have sex in private or in public.  Totally different frame of reference, isn't it?

[Paddy]

Totally different frame of reference, isn't it?

Not really.  Either way, you're picking up a potentially lethal disease, so have a lot of fun in the meantime, because eternity is forever.

[MicroBalrog]

It seems that my post has been missed in the rush that has been missed in the drive to condemn TEH OMG IMMORALITY. In the meanwhile, I conferred with a Dutch friend that actually lives in the fair city of Amsterdam.

So yeah. Screaming Telegraph headlines aside, the law, he tells me, is not limited to gay people. The park in question, apparently, has been a favorite spot for gay people for this sort of thing for ages (and a limited amount of straights), and basically a sorts of 'Lover's Lane' for gay people, and apparently the city fathers just got tired of chasing after their own tail on this issue.

Further, apparently 77% of the Amsterdamers (is that the right one?) are okay with this according to polls.

You want to have to steer them around that?

The law is specifically limited to stuff that happens at night. If your children are so young that seing OMG SEX will ruin their innocence, they shouldn't be wandering around a park at midnight.

Robert Heinlein became a dirty old man who went nutty and promoted incest, pedophilia and other WTF crap in his later works.

Do you mean "Time Enough for Love"?

[Strings]

Heinlein actually made some interesting sociological points (about incest and cannibalism particularly): is there anything other than social stigma blocking those practices?

 Cannibalism was practiced by pretty much every people at some point in their history. Honestly, the only thing that stops modern man from engaging in it (and it does still happen in extreme circumstances) is the social stigma, that it is wrong to eat each-other.

 Incest (at least between adults) is actually social standards enforced for a biological reason, but what happens if the biological reason is removed? Makes for an interesting concept to discuss (although I'm just as filled with society's feelings on it as everybody else here). Won't get into the whole thing of children being involved: such things as sex should ONLY be between consenting adults...

[MicroBalrog]

I'm at a loss. Where are there children in Time Enough For Love? There's teenagers aplenty, but not actual prepubescent pedo-dream kids, IIRC.

[Strings]

That's kinda my point, Micro...

[lupinus]

How does seeing sex ruin "innocence"?  Does seeing it somehow make them guilty? 

I dunno bout guilty, but I caught my grandparents doing the dirty and it's scarred me for life 

If they want buttsecks, throw them in prison I'm sure they will have all they can handle.

[roo_ster]

But certainly public sex (of any kind) is not on the table in these places-it's not even part of the debate, for a whole host of very good reasons.

[tongue-in-cheek]And more's the pity.  It ought to be on the table...and on the park bench, and on the bike path, and on the merry-go-round, and in the streets and on the sidewalks outside one's homes.[/tongue-in-cheek]

To abuse the words of Winston Churchill (Because the neo-puritans are at war with fun, just like the Nazi's were ):

You ask, What is our policy? I will say; It is to wage war bump uglies in public, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God modern chemistry can give us: to wage war sweet, sweet man-love against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask, What is our aim? I can answer with one word: Victory--victory Fornication--fornication at all costs, victory fornication in spite of all terror, victory fornication however long and hard the road may be; for without victory fornication there is no survival*.

We shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight copulate in France, we shall fight hump on the seas and the oceans, we shall fight grind with growing confidence and growing strength in the air**, we shall defend our island obnoxious public sex, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight fornicateon the beaches, we shall fight get nasty on the landing grounds, we shall fight shag like gutter rats in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight boink in the hills; we shall never surrender.

* An apt point, were one referring to the hetero version.

** "cause there ain't nothin' more cool than sex in a public toilet...as long as that toilet is moving really fast at 30K feet.

[MicroBalrog]

This seems appropriate:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=da5uoggW9Eg

[Dntsycnt]

>Strings:  Ever read the Bible?  Stoning isn't exactly enjoyable, you know.<

 WOW... the Bible says gays are an abomination and should be destroyed, so they've been persecuted for thousands of years!

 Newsflash: the Bible in any form has only held sway in western civilization for roughly 1700 years. As for the rest of the world, there are lots of places where it still DOESN'T have much traction. So it hardly amounts to "gays have been persecuted for thousands of years"...

Strings...did I ever specify Western society?  Or that it was happening globally?  C'mon, man...you're grasping at straws to try to tell me I'm wrong.  I will concede that there were many societies in the past that encouraged homosexuality, in fact I almost ommitted that sentence because I  figured you'd bring up the greeks and romans.  My point was that when you make something illegal (and socially taboo) that thing becomes all the more dangerous to do, and thus takes strange, shady forms, such as in the park bushes, etc.  This may not be the complete cause; perhaps just more dudes are willing to screw in public places, I don't know. 



As for Heinlein, he was a brilliant man who went a little wonky in his old age but still expounded upon many great truths.  He is considered "sick" and "dirty" only by those who when reading go OMGOSH BUTTSECKS and throw the book across the room without giving a chance to reasoning different than what they have been raised on.  Please see my earlier quote.


Micro:  There are several instances in Time Enough For Love where characters must deal with their children coming of age (elevenish) and wanting to have sex.  He addresses children having sex, and children viewing sex, and the tangible repercussions of both these things.

[MicroBalrog]

Micro:  There are several instances in Time Enough For Love where characters must deal with their children coming of age (elevenish) and wanting to have sex.  He addresses children having sex, and children viewing sex, and the tangible repercussions of both these things.

*shrugs*

I thought they were in their early teens. Must re-read book.

[Perd Hapley]

What's first permitted will become mandatory.  You listening, Fistful?

Sorry.  I wasn't paying much attention to this thread.  To what am I supposed to be listening? 

[Balog]

"To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to unlearn old falsehoods." -Robert Heinlein

How does seeing sex ruin "innocence"?  Does seeing it somehow make them guilty? 

And don't ascribe perversion to what I'm saying, taking sexual advantage of children in any way is wrong.  But how is a child seeing sex being harmed, unless the child has been ingrained with the position that sex itself is somehow harmful?

From Dictionary.com:
Perversion
any of various means of obtaining sexual gratification that are generally regarded as being abnormal.

[Dntsycnt]

Yes, you are trying to ascribe perversion, such as a sick individual wanting to show children porn for sexual gratification to discussion on children seeing an unrelated party have sex either out of happenstance or simple everyday life.

The former is what people go behind bars for, and the latter is what we have actually been discussing.

[Boomhauer]

The day two gay guys start humping at the table next to me in a restaurant is the day I finally snap, Dntsycnt.

I have no desire to see two gays going at it. Nor should my children see it. So, no freaking way should it be allowed in public.

And, one more thing...I finally agree with Shootinstudent on an issue.

It is private, and should be private, and should not be exploited for public gratification. 

Damn straight.

[Dntsycnt]

There are people who think that hugging should be private.  Or dancing.

If your opinion that it should "be private" is all that you have to bring to the table...well okay.  There is nothing to discuss with a reasonless argument.

[roo_ster]

*Tangent Alert*

We should all thank Dntsycnt for demonstrating, yet again, that the social libertarian perspective is incompatible with both Federalism and the Constitution of the United States.

[Dntsycnt]

I'm curious...how?

I don't mean that in an argumentative way, I'm curious about how they contradict each other, as I have yet to notice anything major and these would be points that would necessitate great consideration on my part.